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WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?

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ThePAMan

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?
« Reply #5490 on: July 21, 2023, 01:29:02 PM »
Quote from: murphstahoe on July 21, 2023, 12:15:55 PM
What Mn is doing - on this and many other topics - is continuing the undercurrent of tin foil hat paranoia that is causing the world a ton of grief. I can't really blame Mn, he's just swept under the current caused by the FOX/OAN of the world who are exploiting the feeble minded and keeping the crazy going.

I give credit to Alum for reading it and looking for counterpoints.

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ThePAMan

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?
« Reply #5491 on: July 21, 2023, 01:33:54 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on July 21, 2023, 01:08:44 PM
Correct - despite the evidence, he believes these nefarious scientists are lying.  There's a name for a theory you believe despite the evidence, what is it?

You realize there are US government agencies who think it was a lab leak, right?. Granted, the agencies have "low confidence" whichever way they come down on the issue. Are they conspiracy theorists too?
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spark mandrill

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?
« Reply #5492 on: July 21, 2023, 01:51:57 PM »
Quote from: ThePAMan on July 21, 2023, 01:33:54 PM
You realize there are US government agencies who think it was a lab leak, right?. Granted, the agencies have "low confidence" whichever way they come down on the issue. Are they conspiracy theorists too?

I understand there are intelligence agencies who have said they think it’s possible or likely.

Not aware of any credible scientific agencies who believe that, as the lying scientists stated clearly under oath.

I already said a lab leak is possible, but until there’s some evidence of that it’s nothing more than a conspiracy theory.  All of the evidence has pointed scientists - even scientists who thought originally that a lab leak was likely - to it being much more likely to be natural.  As, again, they stated very clearly under oath.

If you believe these hearings were anything other than blatant political grandstanding meant to undermine the scientific community that one political party has villainized for years, you’re more gullible than I’ve been giving you credit for.  I’ll trust the scientists, not the politicians who have made it exceedingly clear they are not operating in good faith here.  When there’s evidence indicating a lab leak is more likely then obviously it’s worth discussing but right now the evidence clearly points the other way, according to the people who study this stuff professionally.

That’s what it really comes down to, right?  Who do you trust more - the professional virologists or the politicians who deemed it a “cover up” before the hearing even started and have made total fools of themselves over and over?  Mn has made it clear which he trusts more, as have I - how about you?
« Last Edit: July 21, 2023, 01:55:44 PM by spark mandrill »
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ThePAMan

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?
« Reply #5493 on: July 21, 2023, 01:55:08 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on July 21, 2023, 01:51:57 PM
I understand there are intelligence agencies who have said they think it’s possible or likely.

Not aware of any credible scientific agencies who believe that, as the lying scientists stated clearly under oath.

I already said a lab leak is possible, but until there’s some evidence of that it’s nothing more than a conspiracy theory.  All of the evidence has pointed scientists - even scientists who thought originally that a lab leak was likely - to it being much more likely to be natural.  As, again, they stated very clearly under oath.

If you believe these hearings were anything other than blatant political grandstanding meant to undermine the scientific community that one political party has villainized for years, you’re more gullible than I’ve been giving you credit for.  I’ll trust the scientists, not the politicians who have made it exceedingly clear they are not operating in good faith here.  When there’s evidence indicating a lab leak is more likely then obviously it’s worth discussing but right now the evidence clearly points the other way, according to the people who study this stuff professionally.

I know what the hearings are and who the Republicans are. I am more interested in what was being said between the scientists internally, especially at the time. And it looks like they were saying some interesting things back then.
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spark mandrill

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?
« Reply #5494 on: July 21, 2023, 01:57:12 PM »
Quote from: ThePAMan on July 21, 2023, 01:55:08 PM
I know what the hearings are and who the Republicans are. I am more interested in what was being said between the scientists internally, especially at the time. And it looks like they were saying some interesting things back then.

Do you think they were bribed or pressured and lied under oath about it?

If not, isn’t the fact that they originally thought it was a lab leak and then after studying it more decided that was very unlikely evidence AGAINST this theory?  It’s not like they never even considered it or wrote it off - they thought it was likely until they studied it more.

Believing one thing until you study it more and rule it out isn’t evidence of some nefarious political conspiracy. It’s literally how science works.
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ThePAMan

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?
« Reply #5495 on: July 21, 2023, 02:22:09 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on July 21, 2023, 01:57:12 PM
Do you think they were bribed or pressured and lied under oath about it?

If not, isn’t the fact that they originally thought it was a lab leak and then after studying it more decided that was very unlikely evidence AGAINST this theory?  It’s not like they never even considered it or wrote it off - they thought it was likely until they studied it more.

Believing one thing until you study it more and rule it out isn’t evidence of some nefarious political conspiracy. It’s literally how science works.

As this has all been politicized, there is of course pressure. Is there possibly a bit of CYA? I don't know. Without the Chinese cooperating, as Alum noted in a linked post, we may never know what exactly happened here.

Apparently the government agencies know they cannot figure it out, ergo the low confidence rating regardless of which way they come down.

I remain open. I know that there are many doofus Republicans with an agenda. Does not mean every lab leak theory is a conspiracy theory. That there may be a few scientists covering for themselves or others  does not mean the natural theory is a cover up either.

That I may lean towards the natural theory does not mean I'm dismissing the lab leak theory. That I am not dismissive of the lab leak theory does not mean I think there is a cover up.

I like that we have Mn and Alum battling it out here on an almost daily basis.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2023, 02:23:59 PM by ThePAMan »
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spark mandrill

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?
« Reply #5496 on: July 21, 2023, 02:27:07 PM »
Calling something a conspiracy theory simply means the evidence doesn’t support it.

The evidence doesn’t support a lab leak theory very well, and DEFINITELY doesn’t support the “they were pressured by Fauci to lie to cover for China” theory that’s actually being pushed by these people.

It’s interesting that there’s this notion of “we wanted to protect China” here - a couple days after the Republican leader gushed about Xi.  Wonder if their views on China will change like their views on Russia did with Trump’s backing.  He obviously likes Xi (along with all the other world strongmen/terrible dictators)

And remember, this committee called this a cover up BEFORE the hearing, that was their goal - to advance the narrative of a nefarious scientific cover up.  That narrative doesn’t have evidence supporting it, but look - it’s being spread throughout the internet, including on this board.  As usual, you’re pushing back on the people acknowledging that rather than the people pushing the narrative.
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ThePAMan

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?
« Reply #5497 on: July 21, 2023, 02:31:25 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on July 21, 2023, 02:27:07 PM
Calling something a conspiracy theory simply means the evidence doesn’t support it.

The evidence doesn’t support a lab leak theory very well, and DEFINITELY doesn’t support the “they were pressured by Fauci to lie to cover for China” theory that’s actually being pushed by these people.

It’s interesting that there’s this notion of “we wanted to protect China” here - a couple days after the Republican leader gushed about Xi.  Wonder if their views on China will change like their views on Russia did with Trump’s backing.  He obviously likes Xi (along with all the other world strongmen/terrible dictators)

I have defended Fauci and why his statements on focusing on the natural theory made sense here quite a bit.

You sure seem that it is cut and dried that the evidence is not there for the lab leak theory, especially  given some of the statements and suspicions in the emails between the scientists.

Protecting China would be also protecting US scientists who were working with the Chinese.
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spark mandrill

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?
« Reply #5498 on: July 21, 2023, 02:41:11 PM »
Are you willing to entertain the notion that these scientists put their lives and reputations on the line to lie about their findings despite there not being any evidence of that?  That’s what you’re arguing, but that seems pretty damn unlikely - and there certainly isn’t any compelling evidence FOR that theory.

I don’t particularly care whether it was man made or not, nor have I ever claimed that it definitely wasn’t.  I trust the people who actually studied it, not the politicians who produced their cover up conclusion first and then struggled to support it with any evidence.

All the actual evidence has gone against them, which is why they’re latching so desperately onto the fact that some of them thought a leak was likely early on until they studied it more - again, just how the scientific method works.  You have a theory, then you try to disprove it.  If you do, you come up with a new theory that fits the evidence and try to disprove that.
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ThePAMan

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?
« Reply #5499 on: July 21, 2023, 02:47:32 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on July 21, 2023, 02:41:11 PM
Are you willing to entertain the notion that these scientists put their lives and reputations on the line to lie about their findings despite there not being any evidence of that?  That’s what you’re arguing, but that seems pretty damn unlikely - and there certainly isn’t any compelling evidence FOR that theory.

I don’t particularly care whether it was man made or not, nor have I ever claimed that it definitely wasn’t.  I trust the people who actually studied it, not the politicians who produced their cover up conclusion first and then struggled to support it with any evidence.

All the actual evidence has gone against them, which is why they’re latching so desperately onto the fact that some of them thought a leak was likely early on until they studied it more - again, just how the scientific method works.  You have a theory, then you try to disprove it.  If you do, you come up with a new theory that fits the evidence and try to disprove that.

Yes, I am willing to at least entertain it. Scientists are not immune to lying, obfuscating, etc. Just look at the Stanford President and any scientists testifying in a lawsuit. You can generally find a "scientist" willing to say anything you want.
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spark mandrill

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?
« Reply #5500 on: July 21, 2023, 02:50:06 PM »
And there’s zero evidence that’s the case in those scenarios, you just believe it?

There is zero evidence that these scientists were pressured or bribed into a cover up and yet the Republicans are spending time and money pushing that narrative, and you’re lending it credence.  Literally their evidence for a cover up is “they changed their opinions as new evidence emerged.” which is about the best thing I can think to say about a scientist.  And pushing that narrative has a cooling effect on sciences which I can’t imagine is too far outside the goal.  Changing your view based on new evidence is the least we can expect out of our scientists and yet going forward people in government will likely think twice before they do it for fear of being fodder in some insane culture war anti science grandstanding.

People have murdered people before but I’d hope you wouldn’t lend credence to a “Mitch McConnell is a serial murderer” theory pushed by the craziest Dem congresspeople without evidence.  There’s open mindedness and then there’s stupidity.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2023, 02:53:52 PM by spark mandrill »
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ThePAMan

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?
« Reply #5501 on: July 21, 2023, 03:20:04 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on July 21, 2023, 02:50:06 PM
And there’s zero evidence that’s the case in those scenarios, you just believe it?

There is zero evidence that these scientists were pressured or bribed into a cover up and yet the Republicans are spending time and money pushing that narrative, and you’re lending it credence.  Literally their evidence for a cover up is “they changed their opinions as new evidence emerged.” which is about the best thing I can think to say about a scientist.  And pushing that narrative has a cooling effect on sciences which I can’t imagine is too far outside the goal.  Changing your view based on new evidence is the least we can expect out of our scientists and yet going forward people in government will likely think twice before they do it for fear of being fodder in some insane culture war anti science grandstanding.

People have murdered people before but I’d hope you wouldn’t lend credence to a “Mitch McConnell is a serial murderer” theory pushed by the craziest Dem congresspeople without evidence.  There’s open mindedness and then there’s stupidity.

Without the cooperation of the Commie Bastards, who knows what was going on over there? There are published allegations that they were doing side work over there in the lab for the Chinese military in addition to the work they were doing with US scientists (with our money). There have also been refuted stories about the US scientist who got sick. Nonetheless, we all know it would look really bad for those working over there, and those doing GoF work with similar viruses and their continued US funding, if this occured due to a lab leak.

We also had Fauci et al. stand telling us to wear whatever face covering we could knowing full well that only certain face coverings were truly effective.

At the end of the day, we all know that "science" is only as good as whoever pays to have it done.

I still presume it was a "natural" occurrence. Does not mean that I am foreclosing that it was not? Nope. I'll go wherever the facts go, which is probably nowhere given the Commie Bastards' refusal to open up the books.

I thought he was Cocaine Mitch. Never heard about his serial murdering.
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spark mandrill

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?
« Reply #5502 on: July 21, 2023, 03:26:27 PM »
If you believe it was a natural occurrence as the current science indicates, you’re doing a disservice to the truth by entertaining the evidence less “they were bribed to lie” conspiracy - in the same way that you’d be doing a disservice to the truth by entertaining the “Mitch McConnell is a serial killer” theory, which has the same amount of evidence supporting it.

Anything is possible but I will follow the evidence.  You’re welcome to give credence to the theories of the people who have shown hundreds of times they are not operating in good faith over the evidence, but I will not do that.

When there’s some evidence?  Sure.  But with the current none?  No, why would I entertain a theory pushed by bad faith politicians with zero evidence to support it beyond “they changed their mind after new evidence emerged”?

Like at some point we need to get back to the point where the political parties at least agree “there is an objective, falsifiable world that we can agree on” instead of continuing to fight on the “is the sky really blue?  Who can say for sure?  Some say yes, some say no” principle.  This notion that you’ll entertain any theory that’s possible regardless of its origin or the evidence for or against it is dangerous as hell.
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spark mandrill

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?
« Reply #5503 on: July 21, 2023, 03:28:00 PM »
I’m curious - if you believe it’s a natural occurrence as the current evidence indicates, why do you spend this entire thread pushing back on me, and not the person you purport to disagree with and the politicians he’s parroting?

I can’t think of a single issue I’d spend time arguing with the people who agree with me but not the people who don’t and you seem to do it almost every day.
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ThePAMan

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?
« Reply #5504 on: July 21, 2023, 03:48:36 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on July 21, 2023, 03:28:00 PM
I’m curious - if you believe it’s a natural occurrence as the current evidence indicates, why do you spend this entire thread pushing back on me, and not the person you purport to disagree with and the politicians he’s parroting?

I can’t think of a single issue I’d spend time arguing with the people who agree with me but not the people who don’t and you seem to do it almost every day.

I have seen no reason to foreclose the inquiry into this at this time, regardless of my leanings. I am not saying anyone was "bribed" to lie.

I have no clue what the politicians are saying on this topic. I do not watch Fox News or OAN or whatever. I do not really care what they think. I do read what Mn and Alum post. I read articles on the subject. I'd rather hear Mn and Alum question the scientists at this point. They would probably do a far better job than the politicians.

Maybe I am into nuance more than Tempo is ever willing to admit.
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