2023 Chicago Bears thread (new)

spark mandrill

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Re: 2023 Chicago Bears thread (new)

« Reply #285 on: May 09, 2023, 11:12:58 AM »

Quote from: Tempo34 on May 09, 2023, 11:10:44 AM

If he was the runaway top prospect, he would have went higher. There were 7-8 players other teams felt had similar upside with less risk. After that, no one was particularly close.

Hahahahaha of course.

Everyone who went in front of him was more talented debatably, but the Bears pick wasn't.

The facts are: The top-10 draft picks, the teams each got the guy they wanted with the pick. The Bears managed to get their guy, AND get paid to do it, and you find that worthy of criticism.

Again: prone to obviously faulty logic to justify your own emotional reaction. Clear as day.

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Reacher

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Re: 2023 Chicago Bears thread (new)

« Reply #286 on: May 09, 2023, 11:13:18 AM »

Quote from: spark mandrill on May 09, 2023, 11:10:37 AM

This narrative fully changed after the accident stuff came out, surely you're willing to acknowledge that?

EVERYONE said Carter was the easy top talent in this draft for a year or two before that came out. Please don't pretend they didn't. He was The Guy for a long time in this draft, until character concerns popped up.

What changed is his stock dropped. He was never going #1 nor was he considered the runaway top talent. He was certainly top 2-3 on most boards. He was never going in the top 2. Those two teams were always picking QB. And Indy was never taking him, as evidenced that they took a raw physical specimens at QB at 4.

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"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.

spark mandrill

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Re: 2023 Chicago Bears thread (new)

« Reply #287 on: May 09, 2023, 11:14:42 AM »

Quote from: Tempo34 on May 09, 2023, 11:13:18 AM

What changed is his stock dropped. He was never going #1 nor was he considered the runaway top talent. He was certainly top 2-3 on most boards. He was never going in the top 2. Those two teams were always picking QB. And Indy was never taking him, as evidenced that they took a raw physical specimens at QB at 4.

Yes, his stock dropped. Not because of his talent though, his stock dropped because of off field concerns. Obviously there were 9 teams in the first 9 spots in the draft who, despite his talent, did not find him worth the risk. One of those 10 got something in return (well, two, but the Lions' move is far more obviously worthy of criticism than Poles' move was), and that's the one you're criticizing.

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Reacher

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Re: 2023 Chicago Bears thread (new)

« Reply #288 on: May 09, 2023, 11:14:47 AM »

No, not EVERYONE. I saw Anderson ranked #1 most often, even before the accident. Certainly Carter was top 2-3 not considering QBs.

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"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.

Reacher

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Re: 2023 Chicago Bears thread (new)

« Reply #289 on: May 09, 2023, 11:15:20 AM »

Quote from: spark mandrill on May 09, 2023, 11:14:42 AM

Yes, his stock dropped. Not because of his talent though, his stock dropped because of off field concerns. Obviously there were 9 teams in the first 9 spots in the draft who, despite his talent, did not find him worth the risk. One of those 10 got something in return (well, two, but the Lions' move is far more obviously worthy of criticism than Poles' move was), and that's the one you're criticizing.

JFC have a good day.

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"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.

spark mandrill

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Re: 2023 Chicago Bears thread (new)

« Reply #290 on: May 09, 2023, 11:16:00 AM »

You too, enjoy the Fazolis.

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Reacher

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Re: 2023 Chicago Bears thread (new)

« Reply #291 on: May 09, 2023, 11:19:35 AM »

Carter’s stock started to drop (a little) even before the accident. You don’t remember all the “where the hell was Jalen Carter?” talk after the Ohio State game?

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"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.

Reacher

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Re: 2023 Chicago Bears thread (new)

« Reply #292 on: May 09, 2023, 11:22:52 AM »

Again, Carter was clearly neck and neck with Anderson on draft boards. But he was never the unquestioned #1 player like a Bedard. Especially if you consider several teams in the top 5 were definitely going QB.

https://www.dawgnation.com/programs/on-the-beat-video/jalen-carter-ohio-state/Q2DC2BEBKREQHK5R7M3IG2AT6Y/

« Last Edit: May 09, 2023, 11:24:26 AM by Tempo34 »

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"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.

Judge Judy

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Re: 2023 Chicago Bears thread (new)

« Reply #293 on: May 09, 2023, 02:26:26 PM »

Spark 1, Tempo 0.

Spark wins this debate.

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Because FOX News told me so…

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ThePAMan

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Re: 2023 Chicago Bears thread (new)

« Reply #294 on: May 09, 2023, 02:28:09 PM »

Quote from: Judge Judy on May 09, 2023, 02:26:26 PM

Spark 1, Tempo 0.

Spark wins this debate.

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Mark Carman: "The Whitlock!...Caleb Williams failed Wayne Whitlock." Been told I need to take my dick out my mouth so maybe I "wont [sic] sound like such a fucking faggot all the time[.]"

Tempo: "PAMan is a pot stirrer and agent provocateur"

Reacher

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Re: 2023 Chicago Bears thread (new)

« Reply #295 on: May 09, 2023, 03:18:32 PM »

Yeah, I don’t think so. A third of the teams (at least) were always passing on Carter. That’s why a 5’10 190 pound quarterback went #1.

If Carter was viewed as the Connor Bedard of the draft, he’d have a point. That was never the case, not even before the accident. Will Anderson was #1 on more boards.

So that means half of the first 8 teams were passing on him regardless.

« Last Edit: May 09, 2023, 03:27:15 PM by Tempo34 »

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"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.

Reacher

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Re: 2023 Chicago Bears thread (new)

« Reply #296 on: May 09, 2023, 03:29:03 PM »

Was Jalen Carter just as overwhelmingly the choice at 1 as he was at 9? That is a preposterous take.

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"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.

Judge Judy

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Re: 2023 Chicago Bears thread (new)

« Reply #297 on: May 09, 2023, 03:31:26 PM »

Quote from: Tempo34 on May 09, 2023, 03:29:03 PM

Was Jalen Carter just as overwhelmingly the choice at 1 as he was at 9? That is a preposterous take.

Nobody is saying that.

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Reacher

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Re: 2023 Chicago Bears thread (new)

« Reply #298 on: May 09, 2023, 03:47:13 PM »

Quote from: Judge Judy on May 09, 2023, 03:31:26 PM

Nobody is saying that.

Spark is. He says 8 teams all “passed on him too,” not taking need or risk into the equation.

Half of these teams at least were not taking Carter. Even before the accident.

The other half took the best player in the draft at their position with exception to the Raiders going with a guy thought to have as high of a ceiling as any player in the draft (without the character concerns).

Once Carter fell to 9 he was far and away the top talent left. Some people were saying Bijan Robinson was the best player in the draft, period. Once we were sitting at 9 with the Bears the obvious choice talent/scheme/need wise was Carter. The same can’t be said for all of the previous 8 teams.

Half of those teams weren’t taking him no matter what. So, yeah, putting more of the microscope on the Bears regarding Carter is reasonably fair. Some professional mockers had Carter to the Bears at 1 (before the trade). That was never going to be the case once Charlotte traded up. They didn’t trade to to draft Jalen Carter.

Two reasons this position doesn’t hold water:

1) Carter was never the CLEAR best player in the draft (though he was right there with Anderson)

2) At least 3 teams were going QB no matter what. From there it was just best player at a premium position and risk evaluation. That is a sliding table that has moved pretty considerably once you get to the 9th pick.

I’m guessing Seattle feels pretty good about their decision to take the best CB in the draft. And Arizona probably feels pretty good about trying to make sure Kyler Murray has every chance to resurrect his career by giving him a LT, the first one off the board. There were no “1st/best player at a premium position” left once we got to 9.

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"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.

Reacher

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You should see my passer rating

Re: 2023 Chicago Bears thread (new)

« Reply #299 on: May 09, 2023, 03:56:19 PM »

So Spark is taking his “they didn’t want him” take he used to defend the Bears’ choice, and discarding that perspective for the first 8 teams of the draft. They didn’t want him. Why? Because they either needed a QB, by far the most important position in the NFL or took their top choice at premium position (DE, CB, LT). The two exceptions to that are the Raiders, who took a very high ceiling DL (who the Bears probably take if he is there), and the Falcons who drafted the best RB prospect in 5-10 years. The Falcons this year might end up making last years’ Bears look pass heavy…

Again, it’s a sliding table. And the table had slid considerably once we got to 9. A team that desperately wants a 3Tech for their defense. Not a quarterback, DE, or RB. Context matters here.

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"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.