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WTF is wrong with the left?

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ThePAMan

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #3585 on: June 14, 2023, 04:23:47 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on June 14, 2023, 04:20:48 PM
?? You’re attributing it to something else that coincidentally confirms your preconception.

Did even bother to read the rest?
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spark mandrill

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #3586 on: June 14, 2023, 04:25:32 PM »
Quote from: ThePAMan on June 14, 2023, 04:22:52 PM
Is it ironic that the guy the two members of the Strawman Brigade accuse of having no empathy suggests they try appealing to the empathy of others?

I am totally fine with appealing to the empathy of the people who might eventually agree with you.

I don’t believe the people who say “I’ll violently attack a black person who enters the bathroom with my kid” will eventually agree that that’s bigoted and wrong.

Honest question, do you think that’s how the civil rights movement had success?  By making sure not to call the virulent racists racists?  It isn’t.  They successfully appealed to the people who already knew racism was wrong but didn’t speak out for societal reasons and made open racism societally unacceptable in a lot of places.  The notion that they were successful because they empathized with the most virulent racists and changed their mind simply isn’t found in evidence.  They had success marginalizing open racists, not appealing to them.
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ThePAMan

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #3587 on: June 14, 2023, 04:26:26 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on June 14, 2023, 04:20:12 PM
Correct.  A speech in which she tried to follow your strategy and empathize with people.  They immediately blasted her and voted for, you guessed it, an open bigot.

Thinking that calling people deplorables is my strategy? Seriously. That is really sad if you believe that is true after all this.
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Mark Carman: "The Whitlock!...Caleb Williams failed Wayne Whitlock." Been told I need to take my dick out my mouth so maybe I "wont [sic] sound like such a fucking faggot all the time[.]"

Tempo: "PAMan is a pot stirrer and agent provocateur"
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ThePAMan

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #3588 on: June 14, 2023, 04:27:41 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on June 14, 2023, 04:25:32 PM
I am totally fine with appealing to the empathy of the people who might eventually agree with you.

I don’t believe the people who say “I’ll violently attack a black person who enters the bathroom with my kid” will eventually agree that that’s bigoted and wrong.

Honest question, do you think that’s how the civil rights movement had success?  By making sure not to call the virulent racists racists?  It isn’t.  They successfully appealed to the people who already knew racism was wrong but didn’t speak out for societal reasons and made open racism societally unacceptable in a lot of places.  The notion that they were successful because they empathized with the most virulent racists and changed their mind simply isn’t found in evidence.  They had success marginalizing open racists, not appealing to them.

Apparently in your mind Tempo's notion of shooting everyone who is a bigot is the way to get them to change their mind.
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Mark Carman: "The Whitlock!...Caleb Williams failed Wayne Whitlock." Been told I need to take my dick out my mouth so maybe I "wont [sic] sound like such a fucking faggot all the time[.]"

Tempo: "PAMan is a pot stirrer and agent provocateur"
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spark mandrill

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #3589 on: June 14, 2023, 04:28:36 PM »
Quote from: ThePAMan on June 14, 2023, 04:26:26 PM
Thinking that calling people deplorables is my strategy? Seriously. That is really sad if you believe that is true after all this.

Is that what she said?

She wasn't saying SPECIFICALLY that while some are (hopefully you'd agree this is true), not all Trump voters are like this, some are simply disillusioned and deserve empathy?

That you even describe the speech this way tells me pretty clearly that trying to empathize with them did not work, at all.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2023, 04:30:15 PM by spark mandrill »
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spark mandrill

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #3590 on: June 14, 2023, 04:29:24 PM »
Quote from: ThePAMan on June 14, 2023, 04:27:41 PM
Apparently in your mind Tempo's notion of shooting everyone who is a bigot is the way to get them to change their mind.

The one I immediately said "no" to?

Yeah, great work.

Why even debate if you're not going to be honest like, ever?  Is it just trolling?  Is this another thing where at the end you're like LOL troll'd ya?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2023, 04:31:57 PM by spark mandrill »
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ThePAMan

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #3591 on: June 14, 2023, 04:33:02 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on June 14, 2023, 04:29:24 PM
The one I immediately said "no" to?

Yeah, great work.

Why even debate if you're not going to be honest like, ever?  Is it just trolling?  Is this another thing where at the end you're like LOL troll'd ya?

Despite saying "no," you just claimed it "worked" for George Wallace.
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Mark Carman: "The Whitlock!...Caleb Williams failed Wayne Whitlock." Been told I need to take my dick out my mouth so maybe I "wont [sic] sound like such a fucking faggot all the time[.]"

Tempo: "PAMan is a pot stirrer and agent provocateur"
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spark mandrill

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #3592 on: June 14, 2023, 04:37:48 PM »
Quote from: ThePAMan on June 14, 2023, 04:33:02 PM
Despite saying "no," you just claimed it "worked" for George Wallace.

I'm sorry, WHAT?

I said WHAT 'worked' for George Wallace?

The dude got shot, became a born-again Christian, and renounced his racism seeking amends with the black community.  He did a ton of damage before that, obviously, but good on him for trying to apologize.  Do you think no one had tried just being nice to him to convince him with logic that racism was bad before?

Wallace had a progressive record as a lawyer and a judge before he lost the governorship to a virulent segregationist; he came back a few years later as an even more virulent segregationist himself.  In the 1970's after MLK had been killed, he renounced the racism.

All indications are that George Wallace wanted power and was willing to say what people wanted to hear to get it.

I would hope I don't need to say, "I do not support shooting racists".
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ThePAMan

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #3593 on: June 14, 2023, 04:42:31 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on June 14, 2023, 04:28:36 PM
Is that what she said?

She wasn't saying SPECIFICALLY that while some are (hopefully you'd agree this is true), not all Trump voters are like this, some are simply disillusioned and deserve empathy?

That you even describe the speech this way tells me pretty clearly that trying to empathize with them did not work, at all.

Let's go through it again....

Quote
You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump’s supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right?

[Laughter/applause]

The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic — you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people — now how 11 million. He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric. Now, some of those folks — they are irredeemable, but thankfully they are not America.

And of course Trump did what with that? Used that to paint her as an elitist who hates regular Americans. So, yes, the racist, sexist, homophobes, xenophobes, and Islamaphobes were not going to vote for her but then there were the people in the other "basket" she was trying to appeal to:

Quote
But the other basket — and I know this because I see friends from all over America here — I see friends from Florida and Georgia and South Carolina and Texas — as well as, you know, New York and California — but that other basket of people are people who feel that the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures, and they’re just desperate for change. It doesn’t really even matter where it comes from. They don’t buy everything he says, but he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won’t wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroine, feel like they’re in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well.

You do not think people in this "basket" that she sought to appeal to bought into Trump's "Hillary is a jackass elitist...she called some Americans deplorables" BS? Yeah, they probably did. This same "Dems are elitist" stuff is ongoing...and not helped by some of the same antics you have engaged in here. Which was my point....
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Tempo: "PAMan is a pot stirrer and agent provocateur"
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spark mandrill

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #3594 on: June 14, 2023, 04:44:17 PM »
Quote from: ThePAMan on June 14, 2023, 04:42:31 PM
Let's go through it again....

And of course Trump did what with that? Used that to paint her as an elitist who hates regular Americans. So, yes, the racist, sexist, homophobes, xenophobes, and Islamaphobes were not going to vote for her but then there were the people in the other "basket" she was trying to appeal to:

You do not think people in this "basket" that she sought to appeal to bought into Trump's "Hillary is a jackass elitist...she called some Americans deplorables" BS? Yeah, they probably did. This same "Dems are elitist" stuff is ongoing...and not helped by some of the same antics you have engaged in here. Which was my point....

Correct - even though she was specifically preaching empathy for them, they blasted her all over every news channel and website and voted instead for an open bigot.

It's unreal that you think this is supporting your point.

The notion that someone is choosing between Clinton and Donald Trump and chose Trump because Clinton said "some people who vote for Trump are deplorable" is hilarious to me.  Like just imagine how many horrible things Trump said that you'd have to ignore to make THAT - "she called racists who vote for Trump deplorable" - the deciding factor.
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spark mandrill

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #3595 on: June 14, 2023, 04:50:44 PM »
This guy:

Said John McCain isn't a hero because I like guys who don't get captured.

Insinuated Megyn Kelly was on her period because she asked him a question he didn't like.

Called Ted Cruz' wife 'ugly' as a campaign strategy

Shat all over the parents of that gold-star killed soldier.

Insinuated that an American born judge couldn't be impartial because he had Mexican heritage and Trump had, previously, implied that Mexico sent their criminals and rapists as immigrants.

As we all know, this list could be about 1000x longer than this, but if you watched a campaign full of these things but still voted for this guy because his opponent called racists 'deplorables', is it possible you weren't really ever going to vote for Hillary Clinton, period?
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ThePAMan

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #3596 on: June 14, 2023, 04:51:00 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on June 14, 2023, 04:37:48 PM
I'm sorry, WHAT?

I said WHAT 'worked' for George Wallace?

The dude got shot, became a born-again Christian, and renounced his racism seeking amends with the black community.  He did a ton of damage before that, obviously, but good on him for trying to apologize.  Do you think no one had tried just being nice to him to convince him with logic that racism was bad before?

Wallace had a progressive record as a lawyer and a judge before he lost the governorship to a virulent segregationist; he came back a few years later as an even more virulent segregationist himself.  In the 1970's after MLK had been killed, he renounced the racism.

All indications are that George Wallace wanted power and was willing to say what people wanted to hear to get it.

I would hope I don't need to say, "I do not support shooting racists".

This was the whole exercise. He was a bigot who changed his views. It was noted that he was visited by Shirley Chisholm in the hospital after he was shot and still a bigot, he then became born again and apologized for his past views, became governor and appointed Blacks to cabinet and state offices. Your initial retort was that he became born again Christian after he got shot. Which aligned with Tempo's original quip (which I did not harangue him about as I did not believe he was serious, despite its heinousness).

You have since claimed he only changed his spots, so to speak, to gain power.
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Mark Carman: "The Whitlock!...Caleb Williams failed Wayne Whitlock." Been told I need to take my dick out my mouth so maybe I "wont [sic] sound like such a fucking faggot all the time[.]"

Tempo: "PAMan is a pot stirrer and agent provocateur"
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ThePAMan

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #3597 on: June 14, 2023, 04:52:19 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on June 14, 2023, 04:44:17 PM
Correct - even though she was specifically preaching empathy for them, they blasted her all over every news channel and website and voted instead for an open bigot.

It's unreal that you think this is supporting your point.

The notion that someone is choosing between Clinton and Donald Trump and chose Trump because Clinton said "some people who vote for Trump are deplorable" is hilarious to me.  Like just imagine how many horrible things Trump said that you'd have to ignore to make THAT - "she called racists who vote for Trump deplorable" - the deciding factor.

It is unreal that you think she did a good job of expressing empathy. The fact is, she did a terrible job, which is why the speech is referred to as the Basket of Deplorables speech.
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Mark Carman: "The Whitlock!...Caleb Williams failed Wayne Whitlock." Been told I need to take my dick out my mouth so maybe I "wont [sic] sound like such a fucking faggot all the time[.]"

Tempo: "PAMan is a pot stirrer and agent provocateur"
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spark mandrill

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #3598 on: June 14, 2023, 04:52:27 PM »
Wallace DID become a born-again Christian and start renouncing racism after he was shot and paralyzed.  What part of that are you taking issue with?
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spark mandrill

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #3599 on: June 14, 2023, 04:53:35 PM »
Quote from: ThePAMan on June 14, 2023, 04:52:19 PM
It is unreal that you think she did a good job of expressing empathy. The fact is, she did a terrible job, which is why the speech is referred to as the Basket of Deplorables speech.

She did a pretty good job, right wing outrage fodder aside.

If you read the speech, there's no reasonable way to think she was saying anything other than "don't just assume someone's a racist and deplorable because they voted for Donald Trump, have empathy for them".  It's just the literal only interpretation of what she said, there isn't another one possible.  The thesis of her speech is, "have empathy for Trump supporters, they're not all deplorable racists."  The takeaway from the right wing media, which you're still repeating, was "all Trump supporters are deplorable racists".  That isn't her fault.

The issue is that she ALSO called racists "deplorable", and guess who didn't like that much?

Do you agree that racists are deplorable?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2023, 04:58:08 PM by spark mandrill »
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