WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?

ThePAMan

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?

« Reply #5520 on: July 21, 2023, 04:37:15 PM »

Quote from: spark mandrill on July 21, 2023, 04:25:11 PM

Then why are you so supportive of this committee hearing/investigation which is focused on the narrative that they were bribed to cover it up, and not at all on the origins of the virus?

It's not like they hid it or pretended they were interested in the origins of COVID.

"“We’re examining whether government officials, regardless of who they are, unfairly, perhaps biasedly, tipped the scales toward a preferred origin theory,” said subcommittee chair Representative Brad Wenstrup (R–OH) at the start of the hearing."

...

"“What a lot of people think is going on here is that Dr. Anthony Fauci and Francis Collins realized that they had been implicated in the creation of this virus, and they were doing everything they could, including getting both of you to come on board as tools or vehicles, to undermine that theory,” said Representative Ronny Jackson (R–TX)."

https://www.science.org/content/article/politicians-scientists-spar-over-alleged-nih-cover-up-using-covid-19-origin-paper

The committee literally called their paper "The Proximal Origin of a Cover Up". The cover up conspiracy was the whole point.

Where have I said that I am supporting of these hearings? I know that they are not interested in finding out the truth on either side. It is, however, where scientists are talking about the subject. I am interested in hearing what they say. The leading questions are not what I am interested in.

I never thought Fauci created the virus.

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ThePAMan

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?

« Reply #5521 on: July 21, 2023, 04:42:09 PM »

Quote from: spark mandrill on July 21, 2023, 04:36:39 PM

Can you show your work on the neck gaiter thing? I remember when that study came out, and then I remember the authors of it coming out and telling people they were misinterpreting the results.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9345365/

Quote

An N95 respirator blocked 99% (standard deviation (SD) 0.3%) of the cough aerosol, a medical grade procedure mask blocked 59% (SD 6.9%), a 3-ply cotton cloth face mask blocked 51% (SD 7.7%), and a polyester neck gaiter blocked 47% (SD 7.5%) as a single layer and 60% (SD 7.2%) when folded into a double layer. In contrast, the face shield blocked 2% (SD 15.3%) of the cough aerosol. Our results suggest that face masks and neck gaiters are preferable to face shields as source control devices for cough aerosols.

Yes, as noted by Alum, it was better than nothing. But, we all found out that the N95 was the king of the hill and they did not want everyone going out and buying them up before they could get them to first responders. As I said at the time of the post, not the worst reason to lie (even if by omission), but it was still a lie. That is what breeds mistrust.

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spark mandrill

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?

« Reply #5522 on: July 21, 2023, 04:43:10 PM »

Quote from: ThePAMan on July 21, 2023, 04:37:15 PM

Where have I said that I am supporting of these hearings? I know that they are not interested in finding out the truth on either side. It is, however, where scientists are talking about the subject. I am interested in hearing what they say. The leading questions are not what I am interested in.

I never thought Fauci created the virus.

But the leading questions ARE the hearing. It’s what the hearing has been, and what it was designed to be - an effort to push the “Fauci bribed them” theory without evidence. And no evidence of that was uncovered in the investigation.

You certainly have pushed back on my issues with the hearings far more than the zero times you’ve pushed back on Mn posting the leading questions. It’s something I sincerely don’t get - in terms of you arguing with someone it’s better to disagree and be someone else than agree and be me.

If you think there isn’t evidence to indicate a lab leak, and there isn’t evidence at all to indicate a bribery or cover up, and the hearing and investigation were clearly political nonsense - then why have you pushed back on me so hard when I’ve said those things, and not at all on Mn when he’s said the exact opposite?

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spark mandrill

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?

« Reply #5523 on: July 21, 2023, 04:49:58 PM »

Quote from: ThePAMan on July 21, 2023, 04:42:09 PM

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9345365/

Yes, as noted by Alum, it was better than nothing. But, we all found out that the N95 was the king of the hill and they did not want everyone going out and buying them up before they could get them to first responders. As I said at the time of the post, not the worst reason to lie (even if by omission), but it was still a lie. That is what breeds mistrust.

So the issue here is that someone told people to wear neck gaiters if they didn’t have a mask, which the study you posted showed makes sense and is reasonable as it’s better than nothing - and that sows distrust in the science community?

When that other study from Duke (which made it clear that it only tested one particular type of neck gaiter) came out conservatives went bat shit over it saying the exact same things you are until the authors came out publicly and told them to stop misrepresenting the results of their study.

I’d say the people who pushed the misrepresented narrative did a whole lot more to sow that distrust than the person who correctly said to wear a neck gaiter if you don’t have a mask, but again you’re pushing back on the guy who said the thing your article agrees with and not the people who misrepresented these studies to push their political narrative.

Here’s an article about the neck gaiter thing:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-those-bogus-reports-on-ineffective-neck-gaiters-got-started/?amp=true

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ThePAMan

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?

« Reply #5524 on: July 21, 2023, 04:58:37 PM »

Quote from: spark mandrill on July 21, 2023, 04:43:10 PM

But the leading questions ARE the hearing. It’s what the hearing has been, and what it was designed to be - an effort to push the “Fauci bribed them” theory without evidence. And no evidence of that was uncovered in the investigation.

You certainly have pushed back on my issues with the hearings far more than the zero times you’ve pushed back on Mn posting the leading questions. It’s something I sincerely don’t get - in terms of you arguing with someone it’s better to disagree and be someone else than agree and be me.

If you think there isn’t evidence to indicate a lab leak, and there isn’t evidence at all to indicate a bribery or cover up, and the hearing and investigation were clearly political nonsense - then why have you pushed back on me so hard when I’ve said those things, and not at all on Mn when he’s said the exact opposite?

Has he posted testimony from the hearings? Yes. That is where the scientists are speaking publicly about these issues. I am interested in what they are saying, not what the politicians are saying.

Again, I do not think Mn has indicated people were bribed. Does he believe they were not choosing to look at lab leak issues because of the implications for science and funding so certain people steered the narrative and search for answers? Yeah, I think so. I did push back on that, as I said Fauci knew that the Chinese were not going to assist, so he may as well focus on the natural origins of the virus. If you can prove the natural origins of the virus, you are disproved the lab leak theory. The plan has not worked to perfection, since no one has definitively proven the natural origins (so far), even though it is leaning that way.

Yet, everyone who says "maybe we should still be looking into the lab leak theory" is classified as a Republican tin foil hat wearer. I get that there are many of them on that side of the fence, but that does not mean it should still be dismissed out of hand. That is not good for "following the science." 'Is it akin to David Shor getting fired for pointing out polling research saying that rioting and looting was not good for Democrats? No, but cutting off inquiry because it is uncomfortable is not a good thing.

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ThePAMan

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?

« Reply #5525 on: July 21, 2023, 05:02:05 PM »

Quote from: spark mandrill on July 21, 2023, 04:49:58 PM

So the issue here is that someone told people to wear neck gaiters if they didn’t have a mask, which the study you posted showed makes sense and is reasonable as it’s better than nothing - and that sows distrust in the science community?

When that other study from Duke (which made it clear that it only tested one particular type of neck gaiter) came out conservatives went bat shit over it saying the exact same things you are until the authors came out publicly and told them to stop misrepresenting the results of their study.

I’d say the people who pushed the misrepresented narrative did a whole lot more to sow that distrust than the person who correctly said to wear a neck gaiter if you don’t have a mask, but again you’re pushing back on the guy who said the thing your article agrees with and not the people who misrepresente d these studies to push their political narrative.

Here’s an article about the neck gaiter thing:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-those-bogus-reports-on-ineffective-neck-gaiters-got-started/?amp=true

Spark, the issue was Fauci and the other scientists in the White House getting up and not telling us that the N95 masks were the ones to get because they wanted to save them for the first responders.

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spark mandrill

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?

« Reply #5526 on: July 21, 2023, 05:04:45 PM »

Quote from: ThePAMan on July 21, 2023, 04:58:37 PM

Yet, everyone who says "maybe we should still be looking into the lab leak theory" is classified as a Republican tin foil hat wearer. I get that there are many of them on that side of the fence, but that does not mean it should still be dismissed out of hand. That is not good for "following the science." 'Is it akin to David Shor getting fired for pointing out polling research saying that rioting and looting was not good for Democrats? No, but cutting off inquiry because it is uncomfortable is not a good thing.

This is totally false. What gets people called tin hat wearers is saying "we need to be looking closely into the lab leak theory and the notion that these scientists were bribed despite all the evidence."

I've said over and over that if there's evidence for the lab leak theory it should absolutely be followed up on and investigated. You know who else said that? The scientist the Republicans tried so hard to bury the last few days. Because that's how science works - you follow the evidence. You don't investigate theories that the evidence doesn't support for political reasons (ignoring, of course, the wasted time and taxpayer money) - that's how politics works. No one is saying "stop considering it might be a lab leak, it makes me uncomfortable" - in fact, every credible person I've seen discussing it INCLUDING the scientists in question in front of the committee, has said "I'm willing to consider a lab leak theory if there's evidence supporting that, but that evidence has not been found." It's exactly what a scientist SHOULD be saying, and exactly what these scientists ARE saying. But again, you've spent ALL DAY arguing with things I said that you later said "oh I actually agree with you" on, and came up with one example where you pushed back on a tiny detail from the guy pushing the "these guys covered up a lab leak origin" narrative.

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spark mandrill

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?

« Reply #5527 on: July 21, 2023, 05:09:53 PM »

Quote from: ThePAMan on July 21, 2023, 05:02:05 PM

Spark, the issue was Fauci and the other scientists in the White House getting up and not telling us that the N95 masks were the ones to get because they wanted to save them for the first responders.

Oh? Just a minute ago it was about neck gaiters, I guess until the evidence undercut that.

I don't have any issue with hording the best masks for the people who were on the front lines and consistently exposed to the virus. That's what any logical assessment would suggest, I assume. I never had trouble getting a mask, personally.

So now we've got, in terms of what sows distrust in science:

- they said to wear neck gaiters when they don't work, even though the evidence says they do work
- they saved the most effective masks for the people most likely to be exposed to COVID

I'm struggling to find the yarn you're trying to spin here. It seems like you're looking for some way that the scientists - and not the people who have been actively trying to undermine them for years - are the ones sowing distrust in science, but your examples are extraordinarily bad.

I think the biggest things by a hundred miles that sow distrust in science are people who misrepresent scientific studies, and people who outright tell people not to trust scientists for political reasons. It's not a coincidence that the largest distrusters of science are the people being actively told "don't trust scientists, they're bribed to lie to you". This hearing has done infinitely more to sow distrust in the scientific establishment than someone telling you to wear a neck gaiter, or the national health apparatus holding back effective masks for the people most likely to be exposed to the virus.

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ThePAMan

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?

« Reply #5528 on: July 21, 2023, 05:15:23 PM »

Quote from: spark mandrill on July 21, 2023, 05:04:45 PM

This is totally false. What gets people called tin hat wearers is saying "we need to be looking closely into the lab leak theory and the notion that these scientists were bribed despite all the evidence."

I've said over and over that if there's evidence for the lab leak theory it should absolutely be followed up on and investigated. You know who else said that? The scientist the Republicans tried so hard to bury the last few days. Because that's how science works - you follow the evidence. You don't investigate theories that the evidence doesn't support for political reasons (ignoring, of course, the wasted time and taxpayer money) - that's how politics works. No one is saying "stop considering it might be a lab leak, it makes me uncomfortable" - in fact, every credible person I've seen discussing it INCLUDING the scientists in question in front of the committee, has said "I'm willing to consider a lab leak theory if there's evidence supporting that, but that evidence has not been found." It's exactly what a scientist SHOULD be saying, and exactly what these scientists ARE saying. But again, you've spent ALL DAY arguing with things I said that you later said "oh I actually agree with you" on, and came up with one example where you pushed back on a tiny detail from the guy pushing the "these guys covered up a lab leak origin" narrative.

You are arguing this point to me when I have told you I do not care about the politicians' investigations. I do not know why. Other than I think the lab leak theory should not be pigeonholed. If it makes you feel better, I wish some independent scientists would do what they could to look into it instead of politicians.

Based on the source materials Mn has linked to here, the scientists were not looking into the lab leak theory. I said I thought I understood why. Mn may disagree based on the materials he has read. I may be wrong. He may be wrong. Odds are, given the Commie Bastards refuse to help, we probably will never know.

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ThePAMan

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?

« Reply #5529 on: July 21, 2023, 05:17:11 PM »

Quote from: spark mandrill on July 21, 2023, 05:09:53 PM

Oh? Just a minute ago it was about neck gaiters, I guess until the evidence undercut that.

I don't have any issue with hording the best masks for the people who were on the front lines and consistently exposed to the virus. That's what any logical assessment would suggest, I assume. I never had trouble getting a mask, personally.

So now we've got, in terms of what sows distrust in science:

- they said to wear neck gaiters when they don't work, even though the evidence says they do work
- they saved the most effective masks for the people most likely to be exposed to COVID

I'm struggling to find the yarn you're trying to spin here. It seems like you're looking for some way that the scientists - and not the people who have been actively trying to undermine them for years - are the ones sowing distrust in science, but your examples are extraordinarily bad.

I think the biggest things by a hundred miles that sow distrust in science are people who misrepresent scientific studies, and people who outright tell people not to trust scientists for political reasons. It's not a coincidence that the largest distrusters of science are the people being actively told "don't trust scientists, they're bribed

to lie to you". This hearing has done infinitely more to sow distrust in the scientific establishment than someone telling you to wear a neck gaiter, or the national health apparatus holding back effective masks for the people most likely to be exposed to the virus.

Spark, they knew the N95s worked. They did not want a run on them so first responders could have them. Fauci admitted that. That was the point. They fucking lied by omission. Now, you are shocked people are skeptical.

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spark mandrill

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?

« Reply #5530 on: July 21, 2023, 05:19:39 PM »

Quote from: ThePAMan on July 21, 2023, 05:15:23 PM

You are arguing this point to me when I have told you I do not care about the politicians' investigations. I do not know why. Other than I think the lab leak theory should not be pigeonholed. If it makes you feel better, I wish some independent scientists would do what they could to look into it instead of politicians.

Based on the source materials Mn has linked to here, the scientists were not looking into the lab leak theory. I said I thought I understood why. Mn may disagree based on the materials he has read. I may be wrong. He may be wrong. Odds are, given the Commie Bastards refuse to help, we probably will never know.

But the scientists DID look into the lab leak theory. They even believed it was probable at one point - which the committee used (and Mn parroted) as evidence that there was something untoward going on. As new evidence came to light they followed what the evidence supported instead of what it didn't support. Again, this is literally just how the scientific method works.

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ThePAMan

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?

« Reply #5531 on: July 21, 2023, 05:19:49 PM »

Quote from: spark mandrill on July 21, 2023, 05:09:53 PM

I don't have any issue with hording the best masks for the people who were on the front lines and consistently exposed to the virus. That's what any logical assessment would suggest, I assume. I never had trouble getting a mask, personally.

Others may have a different viewpoint, if you can believe that.

To sit here and say the gaitors work, 47%, is BS. Yes, they work better than absolutely nothing. No shit.

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ThePAMan

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?

« Reply #5532 on: July 21, 2023, 05:29:34 PM »

Quote from: spark mandrill on July 21, 2023, 05:19:39 PM

But the scientists DID look into the lab leak theory. They even believed it was probable at one point - which the committee used (and Mn parroted) as evidence that there was something untoward going on. As new evidence came to light they followed what the evidence supported instead of what it didn't support. Again, this is literally just how the scientific method works.

And yet, agencies of the US government have been sucked into believing the lab leak theory, which has been, allegedly, disproved. Interesting how the Deep State works.

Interesting article about the virologists versus the US intelligence agencies:
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/02/28/1160162845/what-does-the-science-say-about-the-origin-of-the-sars-cov-2-pandemic

Note, there is no "smoking gun animal" supporting the natural theory.

Scientists who believe in the natural origin theory admit lab leak theory should not be ruled out:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-65708746

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spark mandrill

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?

« Reply #5533 on: July 21, 2023, 05:38:39 PM »

Quote from: ThePAMan on July 21, 2023, 05:17:11 PM

Spark, they knew the N95s worked. They did not want a run on them so first responders could have them. Fauci admitted that. That was the point. They fucking lied by omission. Now, you are shocked people are skeptical.

I'm not at all shocked that people are skeptical. I'm shocked if you really think that that's why - the huge majority of the science skepticism has been way, way crazier than "tell them not to buy N95's so the people in hospitals don't run out". I don't think you really think that that's the reason for the skepticism though. Like you've already said, you recognize the majority of the science skepticism is coming from the right - but the right was largely anti-mask. They don't distrust Fauci because he said not to wear masks when he knew they WERE effective. They distrust Fauci because they think he was telling the truth early on, and then was pressured to lie (sound familiar?) when he knew they WEREN'T effective.

Far, far more science skepticism comes from the dozens of millions of Americans who are being flat out told not to trust science in the media they consume every day. The people doubting the vaccine, posting the nonsense VAERS data, pushing the "pull forward" narrative, etc. Those aren't people skieptical because Fauci told them NOT to mask up, and then changed the story.

I'm no giant Fauci fan (my parents are and I find it really fucking weird, but they sit and watch brain-rot CNN all day so it's not that surprising) and I agree, he lied - and not just by omission. He flat out said NOT to wear masks. I just am not sure that it was wrong to do, overall - or what I would've done differently/better. If he had said "everyone go buy N95 masks" and then everyone in all the hospitals started getting sick because we didn't have enough N95's, he'd have obviously (and correctly, IMO) gotten absolutely hammered for it. There's no real way to tell the American people, "hey we know these N95's are effective. PLEASE do not buy any of them as we need them for first responders." In terms of 'breeding science skepticism', surely this is super low on the list right? Far, far below the actually nefarious people - millions of them - who are STILL spreading really clear misinformation about COVID three years after the fact.

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spark mandrill

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?

« Reply #5534 on: July 21, 2023, 05:40:31 PM »

Quote from: ThePAMan on July 21, 2023, 05:29:34 PM

And yet, agencies of the US government have been sucked into believing the lab leak theory, which has been, allegedly, disproved. Interesting how the Deep State works.

Interesting article about the virologists versus the US intelligence agencies:
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/02/28/1160162845/what-does-the-science-say-about-the-origin-of-the-sars-cov-2-pandemic

Note, there is no "smoking gun animal" supporting the natural theory.

Scientists who believe in the natural origin theory admit lab leak theory should not be ruled out:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-65708746

Who said it had been disproven?

Surely you aren't referring to me, who again, has said at least five times today that it's possible and that if evidence of it comes out it should absolutely be investigated fully - right?

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