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What are you listening to?

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ILLove1997

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Re: What are you listening to?
« Reply #120 on: October 08, 2020, 09:08:22 AM »
Libertarianism and environmentalism are not mutually exclusive. They are, in fact, conjoined.

whats wrong with not wanting to trash the planet for some stupid dollars
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illiniray

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Re: What are you listening to?
« Reply #121 on: October 08, 2020, 01:11:11 PM »
Libertarianism and environmentalism are not mutually exclusive. They are, in fact, conjoined.

On what planet?  I consider myself a recovering libertarian.  There are two main kinds. Some are like Marxists -- libertarianism would work if only ... I was one of those.  Others are covert white nationalists.   
« Last Edit: October 08, 2020, 02:52:04 PM by illiniray »
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illiniray

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Re: What are you listening to?
« Reply #122 on: October 08, 2020, 03:11:58 PM »
“Taking a trip? Where to?”  -“Wherever I end up, I guess. -“Man, I wish I was you." -Well, hang in there.”

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Custard

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Re: What are you listening to?
« Reply #123 on: October 08, 2020, 07:43:24 PM »
On what planet?  I consider myself a recovering libertarian.  There are two main kinds. Some are like Marxists -- libertarianism would work if only ... I was one of those.  Others are covert white nationalists.   

Libertarianism has a caveat about respecting the rights and liberties of others. Destroying the environment is not respectful of the rights and liberties of others.

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fucking

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Re: What are you listening to?
« Reply #124 on: October 08, 2020, 07:43:42 PM »
On what planet? 
An honest interpretation of libertarian principles (which is rare) must acknowledge that an individual has the right to inflict his whims on his property, but not on anyone else, and not on anyone else's property.

That's only logical, because naturally the other individual would have the same rights.

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illiniray

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Re: What are you listening to?
« Reply #125 on: October 09, 2020, 10:55:47 AM »
The issue with Capitalism is externalities. A free market would in fact produce the best outcomes given nominally rational actors - but in a real system you can do things like dump a bunch of crap in a river - which would be a cost of doing business that you would need to account for, but if the cleanup of the river is in fact paid for by people downstream from you, it's not really a free market, it's a corrupt market, where you take some of your costs of production and have them paid for by someone else.

It's a simple thing for government to deal with externalities - you have to pay for your waste, air pollution, pay a proportionate cost for your use of roadways and the CO2 pollution caused by that, etc... then we would be able to correct for those costs.

Would we do that, a lot of US industries would be a lot more competitive internal to the US because Chinese competitors would have to pay the true cost of their shipping. But that would be a problem for US oil companies, so we don't do that.

Not just rational actors, but benevolent actors. A rational but self centered actor might conclude, for example, it is in his / her best interest to privatize profits and socialize losses and costs. Or to dump his waste in his neighbor's water supply. Or to steal his neighbor's resources. And so on. A benevolent person would not.  Idealistic systems like socialism  and libertarianism fail because humans are more rational -- and self centered -- than benevolent.

I always liked the ideas of carbon taxes and credits. 

     
« Last Edit: October 09, 2020, 10:58:33 AM by illiniray »
“Taking a trip? Where to?”  -“Wherever I end up, I guess. -“Man, I wish I was you." -Well, hang in there.”

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Custard

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Re: What are you listening to?
« Reply #126 on: October 09, 2020, 12:52:36 PM »
Idealistic systems like socialism and libertarianism fail because humans are more rational -- and self centered -- than benevolent.

I’ve always thought the same.

Meanwhile so many people/companies are on the government tit in some form or fashion sometimes it’s hard to distinguish one from the other. So I don’t see our society going libertarian any time in the near future.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2020, 12:56:27 PM by Custard »
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murphstahoe

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Re: What are you listening to?
« Reply #127 on: October 09, 2020, 07:31:13 PM »
Idealistic systems like socialism  and libertarianism fail because humans are more rational -- and self centered -- than benevolent.


This is an odd sentence because "libertarianism" and "socialism" aren't concepts that occupy the same axis.

Libertarianism is a term that relates to how much control the government to enforce societal rules/standards. The maximum case is anarchy.

Socialism relates to whether various functions are funded by government or private industry. The maximum case is communism I guess, but I think using either label gets muddied because in US culture these words have been co-opted to just mean "BAD" even though huge sectors of our society are government run and run pretty well. There are plenty of reasons to complain about the government here, but compared to places where the government doesn't run such things, we do a lot better.

I'm confused by how you use the word "idealistic" about socialism as a concept. Is the fact we collect taxes from everyone and use some of them to pay the cops, teachers, firefighters "idealistic"? Is your assertion that it doesn't work because since the cops are funded by the government, they will do a shitty job compared to if they are privately funded?

History is littered with cases where things like the military or police were basically private security systems that the wealthy funded for themselves and the rest of the rabble had no such protection. Those countries failed. There are present examples all over the undeveloped world - and it's in large part why those countries are still undeveloped.

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illiniray

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Re: What are you listening to?
« Reply #128 on: October 10, 2020, 08:03:34 AM »
This is an odd sentence because "libertarianism" and "socialism" aren't concepts that occupy the same axis.

Let's define terms. That will help.

libertarianism is an idealistic political philosophy. Socialism is an idealistic economic system.

Socialism is an economic system based on public ownership and central planning. Communism is a political system to achieve socialism via class struggle,  dictatorship of the proletariat, etc.  Democratic Socialism is a political system to achieve socialism gradually via the ballot box.

Capitalism is an economic system based on private enterprise and free markets. Libertarianism is a political philosophy that effectively promotes laissez faire capitalism.   

Social Democracy is is a political system that uses some public ownership and / or central planning to mitigate the excesses and shortcomings of private enterprise and free markets.  In other words, you wind up with a mixed economy.

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Socialism relates to whether various functions are funded by government or private industry. The maximum case is communism I guess, but I think using either label gets muddied because in US culture these words have been co-opted to just mean "BAD" even though huge sectors of our society are government run and run pretty well. There are plenty of reasons to complain about the government here, but compared to places where the government doesn't run such things, we do a lot better

Socialism refers to a centrally planned economy with collective ownership. Having the government step in where the private sector fails does not constitute socialism.  That is called a mixed economy or social democracy.

Quote
I'm confused by how you use the word "idealistic" about socialism as a concept. Is the fact we collect taxes from everyone and use some of them to pay the cops, teachers, firefighters "idealistic"? Is your assertion that it doesn't work because since the cops are funded by the government, they will do a shitty job compared to if they are privately funded?

Most of the time, the free market run by the private sector does the best job of providing the most goods and services at the best cost. Sometimes not so much, such as education, healthcare, and transportation. Also social services. We also need to protect against predatory practices. 

One might argue that if public ownership and central planning works for the fire department; why not nationalize everything? Well, as it is, our mixed economy American food industry produces enough that we could distribute the surplus free to the poor.  Socialism would be nationalizing the entire chain of production,  from the farm fields to the grocery shelf, and we'd wind up with bread lines.   

The idealism is that "from each according to ability, to each according to need", works.

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History is littered with cases where things like the military or police were basically private security systems that the wealthy funded for themselves and the rest of the rabble had no such protection. Those countries failed. There are present examples all over the undeveloped world - and it's in large part why those countries are still undeveloped.

That furthers my case for what I call Social Democracy. The private sector and free markets has its place, and indeed should be the default. However, public ownership (I would stress public over government) and central planning have a place. Certainly military and law enforcement to start.

« Last Edit: October 13, 2020, 12:36:15 PM by illiniray »
“Taking a trip? Where to?”  -“Wherever I end up, I guess. -“Man, I wish I was you." -Well, hang in there.”

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illiniray

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Re: What are you listening to?
« Reply #129 on: October 10, 2020, 08:39:37 AM »
“Taking a trip? Where to?”  -“Wherever I end up, I guess. -“Man, I wish I was you." -Well, hang in there.”

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Custard

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Re: What are you listening to?
« Reply #130 on: October 10, 2020, 10:28:44 AM »
Let's define terms. That will help.

libertarianism is an idealistic political philosophy. Socialism is an idealistic economic system.

Socialism is an economic system based on public ownership and central planning. Communism is a political system to achieve socialism via class struggle dictatorship of the proletariat, etc.  Democratic Socialism is a political system to achieve socialism gradually via the ballot box.

Capitalism is an economic system based on private enterprise and free markets. Libertarianism is a political philosophy that effectively promotes laissez faire capitalism.   

Social Democracy is is a political system that uses some public ownership and / or central ownership to mitigate the excesses and shortcomings of private enterprise and free markets.  In other words, you wind up with a mixed economy.

Socialism refers to a centrally planned economy with collective ownership. Having the government step in where the private sector fails does not constitute socialism.  That is called a mixed economy or social democracy.

Most of the time, the free market run by the private sector does the best job of providing the most goods and services at the best cost. Sometimes not so much, such as education, healthcare, and transportation. Also social services. We also need to protect against predatory practices. 

One might argue that if public ownership and central planning works for the fire department; why not nationalize everything? Well, as it is, our mixed economy American food industry produces enough that we could distribute the surplus free to the poor.  Socialism would be nationalizing the entire chain of production,  from the farm fields to the grocery shelf, and we'd wind up with bread lines.   

The idealism is that "from each according to ability, to each according to need", works.

That furthers my case for what I call Social Democracy. The private sector and free markets has its place, and indeed should be the default. However, public ownership (I would stress public over government) and central planning have a place. Certainly military and law enforcement to start.

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illiniray

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Re: What are you listening to?
« Reply #131 on: October 13, 2020, 10:49:32 AM »
“Taking a trip? Where to?”  -“Wherever I end up, I guess. -“Man, I wish I was you." -Well, hang in there.”

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illiniray

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Re: What are you listening to?
« Reply #132 on: October 24, 2020, 08:21:45 PM »
“Taking a trip? Where to?”  -“Wherever I end up, I guess. -“Man, I wish I was you." -Well, hang in there.”

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illiniray

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Re: What are you listening to?
« Reply #133 on: November 02, 2020, 02:08:12 PM »
“Taking a trip? Where to?”  -“Wherever I end up, I guess. -“Man, I wish I was you." -Well, hang in there.”

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illiniray

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Re: What are you listening to?
« Reply #134 on: November 03, 2020, 05:08:34 PM »
“Taking a trip? Where to?”  -“Wherever I end up, I guess. -“Man, I wish I was you." -Well, hang in there.”