WTF did Trump do to the stock market?

ILLove1997

6438
+80/-2019

Re: WTF did Trump do to the stock market?

« Reply #390 on: April 28, 2020, 10:25:26 AM »

Quote from: ThePAMan on April 25, 2020, 06:35:32 AM

Quote from: Custard on April 24, 2020, 10:23:25 AM
Quote from: ThePAMan on April 24, 2020, 04:05:10 AM
Quote from: Custard on April 23, 2020, 11:22:08 PM
Quote from: Miniditka on April 23, 2020, 08:55:31 PM
Quote from: Custard on April 23, 2020, 07:29:24 PM
I don’t see a whole lot of discussion about personal liberty from the limited amount of news consumption I do. There’s no shortage of education and information out there regarding the risks and preventative measures, so I believe people should have the right to make their own decisions as to how and when they want to interact socially and economically.

Now all you government loving nanny state aficionados will argue that Americans are simply too stupid to handle this without the government forcing them to adhere to these completely contradicting guidelines from state to state. And maybe you’re right.

But the way I see it people have been armed with knowledge to make good decisions and take proper precautions. Let people who want to go back to work go back to work. Let them and their families decide how to take precautions and protect their loved ones in their own household.

At the end of the day it’s not really much different than trusting people with gun ownership, driving a car, walking around with untreated drug addiction or mental illness, AIDS, etc. At any given time any given person can cause untold numbers of deaths and destruction, but in general people aren’t as bad and stupid as they’re made out to be.
It’s actually more akin to vaccination. Just like with people who refuse to vaccinate or child, the victim of their selfish actions is not likely to be themselves or their child. Instead, it will be someone who is older, more fragile, immune-compromised, etc. I’m OK with people not being legally allowed to be that selfish.

I mean I get your stance, yet each and every year millions of people knowingly and unknowingly go to work with influenza A or B or other serious infectious diseases. They go to other functions and sporting events and church. They unwittingly, perhaps selfishly in certain instances, get other people sick or dead. My viewpoint is that caution is obviously prudent, yet we are on a slippery slope here.

I think it’s hard to draw a hard line between shutting down the entire country indefinitely and what the acceptable collateral damage from the actual threat is. Which is essentially the battle that’s being fought right now at every level of government and public policy.

Now in a different and better world, we could shut down the country and everyone would have full access to supplies and healthcare and money and some sense of security. However our society isn’t constructed that way and therefore the shutdown has caused literally incalculable financial damage to businesses and individuals that will take a long time from which to recover. If the goal is to save every life possible from COVID-19 that’s a noble gesture but we have to look at the bigger picture to see what trickle down effects that this single minded policy has.

If this causes a 5 or 10 year economic depression that ends up costing hundreds of thousands or millions of lives to poverty, disease, suicide, increased substance abuse, families’ savings and property values destroyed, financial inability to properly care for children, etc, of people in the prime of their lives, was it worth it to save tens of thousands of lives of the *mostly* elderly and generally unhealthy in 2020?

These are the kinds of conversations that are taking place and also the kind of arguments that get used to make decisions in wars, such as the decision to drop the bombs on Japan in WWII. It’s a no win situation. Someone has to draw the line in the sand, Dude, and across this you DO NOT...Also, Dude, the Chinaman may be the issue here. We are basically in an economic hot war with China ATM and the COVID situation is really just window dressing.

It’s about forcing re-nationalizing manufacturing and lessening our economic dependency on China in the same way we used to talk about lessening our dependence on foreign oil. This is something Trump has been talking about for ages. So while everyone is arguing over reopening the country and using this as a political football for business owners and the newly unemployed to clash with the people seeking the moral high ground of safety at all costs, a lot of chess is being played on the global level.

It was supposed to be about slowing the spread so the hospitals do not become overwhelmed so that people that otherwise could be saved, like someone in a car crash, etc., could be saved because the resources were not all being used on the virus.

The death rate is still 2 to 3 x the norm in NY from this. That takes into account all deaths, not just the virus.

At some point things will open up again. It will be shortly and then we will have another wave. The Chinese are seeing it right now.

Yes, we should do what we can to.lessen our dependence on Chinese manufacturing. The problem is that corporate America and the populace love cheap stuff made by Chinese slaves and kids.

I mean flattening the curve was certainly the story. Ventilators and beds and emergency pop up hospitals and OMG WE ARE ALL GONNA DIE. But really it’s the perfect storm for a bunch of BS. So even if the disease isn’t as bad as we thought and all these things never came to fruition it’s simply because THE SHUTDOWN WORKED RIGHT? Kudos to those brilliant people in charge for doing the difficult things necessary to save lives! We flattened the curve!

But what if it just really wasn’t that bad and wouldn’t have been that bad even if we’d have carried on as normal? One could point to northern Italy as an example but there are a lot of factors in play there that made it the prime location for a very bad outbreak. We’ll never know and that’s *probably* a good thing but I’d love to see some stats on what percentage of hospital and healthcare resources have even been allocated to COVID-19 patients.

Except we do know. We have seen what has happened in NY, Sweden, etc. We know in places that have been hit hard by this the number of deaths are 2 to 3, if not more, times the average and, in some places, hospitals are overrun and forced to ration resources. I don't get what you don't get in this regard. It is all about giving the medical profession time to figure out the best way to deal with this to avoid greater carnage when we do open things back up. With the time being spent and the precautions being put into place hopefully there will not be a second wave as bad as expected in the fall.

bullshit

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

sweden is basically right on par with every other western country and they didn't destroy their economy in the process

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alum74

2693
+1449/-124

Re: WTF did Trump do to the stock market?

« Reply #391 on: April 28, 2020, 11:25:22 AM »

Quote from: ThePAMan on April 28, 2020, 12:10:12 AM

Quote from: illinicalvin on April 27, 2020, 08:25:22 PM
Quote from: murphstahoe on April 26, 2020, 03:49:14 PM
Quote from: Judge Judy on April 25, 2020, 06:10:57 PM

What does closing the border down or not have to do with testing, social distancing, protective equipment, or ventilators?

Had Trump nailed that stuff, he'd be a hero and cruise to re-election.
his asinine anti-Chinese narrative

While I agree that he ignored all the warnings provided by his own administration and his rhetoric is usually unseemly, how is the narrative against the fucking commie assholes running China wrong? Fuck those assholes. Those guys are scum, lied about the virus, steal our IP, use slave labor (and our corporate overlords here enable them). Hopefully Xi chokes on his own vomit and manufacturers leave that third world shithole in droves and the SARS spreading idiots who.eat bats can just kill each other.

Well…I think it’s more the way Trump and his enablers have advanced the anti-Chinese narrative. To distract from his dangerous rhetoric, lies and mismanagement of the crisis.

China deserves a major share of the blame and we should be working to put in place international agreements and sanctions to avert pandemics, starting with closing live animal markets, combating wild animals trafficking and changing wildlife consumption behaviors https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/06/ban-live-animal-markets-pandemics-un-biodiversity-chief-age-of-extinction). But that would require hard work, cooperating with the EU, Japan, Canada and others to pressure China and other countries.

Me: I’d like to see a Nuremberg-type international tribunal. Put Xi and his cronies on trial first for crimes against humanity, followed by Trump, Hannity and Ingrahm.

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ThePAMan

31772
+609/-2446
Because "PussyMan" and "PenisMan" were trademarked

Re: WTF did Trump do to the stock market?

« Reply #392 on: April 28, 2020, 03:26:11 PM »

Quote from: alum74 on April 28, 2020, 11:25:22 AM

Quote from: ThePAMan on April 28, 2020, 12:10:12 AM
Quote from: illinicalvin on April 27, 2020, 08:25:22 PM
Quote from: murphstahoe on April 26, 2020, 03:49:14 PM
Quote from: Judge Judy on April 25, 2020, 06:10:57 PM

What does closing the border down or not have to do with testing, social distancing, protective equipment, or ventilators?

Had Trump nailed that stuff, he'd be a hero and cruise to re-election.
his asinine anti-Chinese narrative

While I agree that he ignored all the warnings provided by his own administration and his rhetoric is usually unseemly, how is the narrative against the fucking commie assholes running China wrong? Fuck those assholes. Those guys are scum, lied about the virus, steal our IP, use slave labor (and our corporate overlords here enable them). Hopefully Xi chokes on his own vomit and manufacturers leave that third world shithole in droves and the SARS spreading idiots who.eat bats can just kill each other.

Well…I think it’s more the way Trump and his enablers have advanced the anti-Chinese narrative. To distract from his dangerous rhetoric, lies and mismanagement of the crisis.

China deserves a major share of the blame and we should be working to put in place international agreements and sanctions to avert pandemics, starting with closing live animal markets, combating wild animals trafficking and changing wildlife consumption behaviors https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/06/ban-live-animal-markets-pandemics-un-biodiversity-chief-age-of-extinction). But that would require hard work, cooperating with the EU, Japan, Canada and others to pressure China and other countries.

Me: I’d like to see a Nuremberg-type international tribunal. Put Xi and his cronies on trial first for crimes against humanity, followed by Trump, Hannity and Ingrahm.

Now we are getting somewhere.

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fucking

3174
+223/-1146
Who Doesn't?

Re: WTF did Trump do to the stock market?

« Reply #393 on: April 28, 2020, 04:03:42 PM »

It would be a lot easier if the Deep State could just kill off all the people it hates, and not bother with this whole "virus" conspiracy, amirite?

Obviously they have the means ...

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ThePAMan

31772
+609/-2446
Because "PussyMan" and "PenisMan" were trademarked

Re: WTF did Trump do to the stock market?

« Reply #394 on: April 28, 2020, 04:15:07 PM »

Quote from: ILLove1997 on April 28, 2020, 10:25:26 AM

Quote from: ThePAMan on April 25, 2020, 06:35:32 AM
Quote from: Custard on April 24, 2020, 10:23:25 AM
Quote from: ThePAMan on April 24, 2020, 04:05:10 AM
Quote from: Custard on April 23, 2020, 11:22:08 PM
Quote from: Miniditka on April 23, 2020, 08:55:31 PM
Quote from: Custard on April 23, 2020, 07:29:24 PM
I don’t see a whole lot of discussion about personal liberty from the limited amount of news consumption I do. There’s no shortage of education and information out there regarding the risks and preventative measures, so I believe people should have the right to make their own decisions as to how and when they want to interact socially and economically.

Now all you government loving nanny state aficionados will argue that Americans are simply too stupid to handle this without the government forcing them to adhere to these completely contradicting guidelines from state to state. And maybe you’re right.

But the way I see it people have been armed with knowledge to make good decisions and take proper precautions. Let people who want to go back to work go back to work. Let them and their families decide how to take precautions and protect their loved ones in their own household.

At the end of the day it’s not really much different than trusting people with gun ownership, driving a car, walking around with untreated drug addiction or mental illness, AIDS, etc. At any given time any given person can cause untold numbers of deaths and destruction, but in general people aren’t as bad and stupid as they’re made out to be.
It’s actually more akin to vaccination. Just like with people who refuse to vaccinate or child, the victim of their selfish actions is not likely to be themselves or their child. Instead, it will be someone who is older, more fragile, immune-compromised, etc. I’m OK with people not being legally allowed to be that selfish.

I mean I get your stance, yet each and every year millions of people knowingly and unknowingly go to work with influenza A or B or other serious infectious diseases. They go to other functions and sporting events and church. They unwittingly, perhaps selfishly in certain instances, get other people sick or dead. My viewpoint is that caution is obviously prudent, yet we are on a slippery slope here.

I think it’s hard to draw a hard line between shutting down the entire country indefinitely and what the acceptable collateral damage from the actual threat is. Which is essentially the battle that’s being fought right now at every level of government and public policy.

Now in a different and better world, we could shut down the country and everyone would have full access to supplies and healthcare and money and some sense of security. However our society isn’t constructed that way and therefore the shutdown has caused literally incalculable financial damage to businesses and individuals that will take a long time from which to recover. If the goal is to save every life possible from COVID-19 that’s a noble gesture but we have to look at the bigger picture to see what trickle down effects that this single minded policy has.

If this causes a 5 or 10 year economic depression that ends up costing hundreds of thousands or millions of lives to poverty, disease, suicide, increased substance abuse, families’ savings and property values destroyed, financial inability to properly care for children, etc, of people in the prime of their lives, was it worth it to save tens of thousands of lives of the *mostly* elderly and generally unhealthy in 2020?

These are the kinds of conversations that are taking place and also the kind of arguments that get used to make decisions in wars, such as the decision to drop the bombs on Japan in WWII. It’s a no win situation. Someone has to draw the line in the sand, Dude, and across this you DO NOT...Also, Dude, the Chinaman may be the issue here. We are basically in an economic hot war with China ATM and the COVID situation is really just window dressing.

It’s about forcing re-nationalizing manufacturing and lessening our economic dependency on China in the same way we used to talk about lessening our dependence on foreign oil. This is something Trump has been talking about for ages. So while everyone is arguing over reopening the country and using this as a political football for business owners and the newly unemployed to clash with the people seeking the moral high ground of safety at all costs, a lot of chess is being played on the global level.

It was supposed to be about slowing the spread so the hospitals do not become overwhelmed so that people that otherwise could be saved, like someone in a car crash, etc., could be saved because the resources were not all being used on the virus.

The death rate is still 2 to 3 x the norm in NY from this. That takes into account all deaths, not just the virus.

At some point things will open up again. It will be shortly and then we will have another wave. The Chinese are seeing it right now.

Yes, we should do what we can to.lessen our dependence on Chinese manufacturing. The problem is that corporate America and the populace love cheap stuff made by Chinese slaves and kids.

I mean flattening the curve was certainly the story. Ventilators and beds and emergency pop up hospitals and OMG WE ARE ALL GONNA DIE. But really it’s the perfect storm for a bunch of BS. So even if the disease isn’t as bad as we thought and all these things never came to fruition it’s simply because THE SHUTDOWN WORKED RIGHT? Kudos to those brilliant people in charge for doing the difficult things necessary to save lives! We flattened the curve!

But what if it just really wasn’t that bad and wouldn’t have been that bad even if we’d have carried on as normal? One could point to northern Italy as an example but there are a lot of factors in play there that made it the prime location for a very bad outbreak. We’ll never know and that’s *probably* a good thing but I’d love to see some stats on what percentage of hospital and healthcare resources have even been allocated to COVID-19 patients.

Except we do know. We have seen what has happened in NY, Sweden, etc. We know in places that have been hit hard by this the number of deaths are 2 to 3, if not more, times the average and, in some places, hospitals are overrun and forced to ration resources. I don't get what you don't get in this regard. It is all about giving the medical profession time to figure out the best way to deal with this to avoid greater carnage when we do open things back up. With the time being spent and the precautions being put into place hopefully there will not be a second wave as bad as expected in the fall.

bullshit

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

sweden is basically right on par with every other western country and they didn't destroy their economy in the process

Something smells rotten in...not Denmark, because its deaths per capita are much lower than Swedens!

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3174
+223/-1146
Who Doesn't?

Re: WTF did Trump do to the stock market?

« Reply #395 on: April 28, 2020, 04:21:27 PM »

When I visited Helsingør last summer, I learned that you can see Helsingborg from Helsingør. I also learned that Helsingør is called Helsingør, and not Elsinore.

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Custard

12321
+238/-2980

Re: WTF did Trump do to the stock market?

« Reply #396 on: April 28, 2020, 07:59:56 PM »

HQ is so much better without censorship

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Custard

12321
+238/-2980

Re: WTF did Trump do to the stock market?

« Reply #397 on: April 28, 2020, 08:09:32 PM »

Does anyone actually believe there isn’t a “deep state?”

Just because it’s become a Trumpism doesn’t mean it isn’t true. The same people who protested the war in Iraq and Occupy Wall Street now deny there’s not non-government manipulation of our government?

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murphstahoe

8275
+2004/-143

Re: WTF did Trump do to the stock market?

« Reply #398 on: April 29, 2020, 01:45:25 AM »

Quote from: Custard on April 28, 2020, 08:09:32 PM

Does anyone actually believe there isn’t a “deep state?”

Just because it’s become a Trumpism doesn’t mean it isn’t true. The same people who protested the war in Iraq and Occupy Wall Street now deny there’s not non-government manipulation of our government?

There is no "deep state". In order to pull off the level of power to actually accomplish the "Deep state" type stuff that the wingnuts believe is happening, you'd need thousands of people, completely committed to that cause and able to have complete and utter secrecy.

Aside from the complete improbability of this, how the hell do you recruit more people to join in the deep state? You'd have to have a really good vetting process, because when you finally accept someone into the "deep state" and let them in on the secret, if they aren't down with that, then you'd have to kill them.

It's one thing to produce a couple Jason Bournes, it's another to produce thousands.

Then we get into things where they discuss super secret technology that the deep state has at its disposal. I'd like to ask Crazy Trumpist Scott Adams how he can have an entire career about how technology companies with thousands of people are run like zoos - yet still believe that some deep state has thousands of engineers desiging secret technology, manufacturing it at sites nobody knows about, and not having hundreds of disgruntled engineers saying screw this, I'm going to go to Apple and make 10x the money to work on stuff that I can actually tell my friends exists.

I mean, I did an internship at an Aerospace firm that did black projects. You had to get clearance to work on black projects, but the same bench would move from some super secret missile guidance system one year to working on Hubbel the next. You had to have clearance to work in the black building but everyone parked in the same lot and ate in the same cafeteria, so any given person on a black project was just as prone to oddball interoffice bitching and politics as the next guy.

The biggest thing is "what's the motivation" of the deep state? To keep the riff raff in West Virginia down? The riff raff is doing just fine keeping themselves down on their own.

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fucking

3174
+223/-1146
Who Doesn't?

Re: WTF did Trump do to the stock market?

« Reply #399 on: April 29, 2020, 07:30:51 AM »

There's certainly a permanent Washington establishment. I've met them.

I had a meeting with Republican ad maker Greg Stevens in 1993. He took a call from some Big Gun five minutes into it, and sent me off with his assistant Winston Lord II. I didn't know who Winston Lord was, but I found out.

Irving Kristol begat Bill Kristol. Cyrus Vance begat Cyrus Vance. Henry Wallace begat Henry Wallace. Harold Ickes begat Harold Ickes.

Clintons, Bushes, Kennedys. Don't even get me started about the Duncan Hunters.

The weird thing, to me, is how most MAGAts have embraced/excused Trump's monarchical tendencies. These people are already advocating Jr. in '24 and Ivanka '32.

« Last Edit: April 29, 2020, 07:34:05 AM by fucking »

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murphstahoe

8275
+2004/-143

Re: WTF did Trump do to the stock market?

« Reply #400 on: April 29, 2020, 12:14:09 PM »

Quote from: fucking on April 29, 2020, 07:30:51 AM

There's certainly a permanent Washington establishment. I've met them.

I had a meeting with Republican ad maker Greg Stevens in 1993. He took a call from some Big Gun five minutes into it, and sent me off with his assistant Winston Lord II. I didn't know who Winston Lord was, but I found out.

Irving Kristol begat Bill Kristol. Cyrus Vance begat Cyrus Vance. Henry Wallace begat Henry Wallace. Harold Ickes begat Harold Ickes.

Clintons, Bushes, Kennedys. Don't even get me started about the Duncan Hunters.

The weird thing, to me, is how most MAGAts have embraced/excused Trump's monarchical tendencies. These people are already advocating Jr. in '24 and Ivanka '32.

The fact you know about all this is evidence against the presence of a "Deep state"

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Custard

12321
+238/-2980

Re: WTF did Trump do to the stock market?

« Reply #401 on: April 29, 2020, 12:15:52 PM »

We obviously have different ideas of what “deep state” means

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alum74

2693
+1449/-124

Re: WTF did Trump do to the stock market?

« Reply #402 on: April 29, 2020, 12:26:02 PM »

It really all depends on what you mean by "deep state."

If it means there's a professional civil service that ensures continuity of ideology and policy across administrations to keep our nation running, and sometimes pushes back when political leaders or top-level hires try to get out of line, there is obviously a deep state.

It's also reasonable to assume that politicians, top political appointees and interest groups (businesses, unions, agriculture, defense, etc.) cooperate to make day-to-day government operations predictable and favorable to their concerns, because why wouldn't they use that power? That’s human nature.

But people take this idea and then build whole "deep state" conspiracy theories, channeling fear/anger, that demonize just about everyone in the world. You can see that paranoia/vivid imaginations in websites like Infowars on the right and Moon of Alabama on the left.

« Last Edit: April 29, 2020, 12:58:09 PM by alum74 »

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ThePAMan

31772
+609/-2446
Because "PussyMan" and "PenisMan" were trademarked

Re: WTF did Trump do to the stock market?

« Reply #403 on: April 29, 2020, 01:44:55 PM »

Quote from: alum74 on April 29, 2020, 12:26:02 PM

It really all depends on what you mean by "deep state."

If it means there's a professional civil service that ensures continuity of ideology and policy across administrations to keep our nation running, and sometimes pushes back when political leaders or top-level hires try to get out of line, there is obviously a deep state.

It's also reasonable to assume that politicians, top political appointees and interest groups (businesses, unions, agriculture, defense, etc.) cooperate to make day-to-day government operations predictable and favorable to their concerns, because why wouldn't they use that power? That’s human nature.

But people take this idea and then build whole "deep state" conspiracy theories, channeling fear/anger, that demonize just about everyone in the world. You can see that paranoia/vivid imaginations in websites like Infowars on the right and Moon of Alabama on the left.

The Deep State was always trying to overthrow the President and kill Jack Bauer on "24."

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Custard

12321
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Re: WTF did Trump do to the stock market?

« Reply #404 on: April 29, 2020, 01:45:59 PM »

I don’t consume such information which is why I don’t have any idea about what Murph is talking about. I do believe that politicians and presidents are products/puppets for big money, special interest groups, the military-industrial complex, etc.

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