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WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?

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Reacher

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?
« Reply #5130 on: February 13, 2023, 07:37:04 AM »
Quote from: Mn on February 13, 2023, 07:32:47 AM
I could go on.

That would be scintillating.
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murphstahoe

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?
« Reply #5131 on: February 13, 2023, 09:39:03 AM »
Quote from: Mn on February 13, 2023, 07:32:47 AM
Thank you for letting me know that I'm losing my mind.

You aren't. To lose something, you have to have it in the first place.
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illiniray

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?
« Reply #5132 on: February 13, 2023, 10:08:33 AM »
I am not sure what is hard to understand about masks. It strikes me as simple enough, regardless of what Fauci said or didn't say. If you base your decisions on Fauci's literal words without context; that's on you..

The cloth masks do serve as a barrier for respiratory droplets that are known to spread colds and flu and at some point were thought to be a primary means of spreading of Covid 19 from human to human. Multi layered cloth masks are better. They should also be washed between uses. Also, moldy masks found in parking lots or mud puddles should not be used.

As Fauci noted in a private conversation; the cloth masks will not block airborne viruses because they are very tiny and can pass right through. By the same token, the cloth mask can't block the much smaller oxygen molecules. It also can't trap CO2 molecules.

The verdict is the cloth mask helps prevent the spread of Covid by acting as a barrier for ejected respiratory droplets that carry the viruses before they become airborne. They are less helpful at preventing infection because they don't work against concentrates of aerosolized viruses.

This is consistent with what Fauci said about cloth masks in private. He never said they don't work. He said they have limits. What he said did not apply at all to surgical or the 95 masks.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2023, 10:10:29 AM by illiniray »
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Reacher

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?
« Reply #5133 on: February 13, 2023, 11:10:26 AM »
If there’s a deadly pandemic and wearing my mask even results in a 15-20% chance I’m less likely to spread or contract said virus, I’ll wear the mask. I go in knowing the mask is probably not 95% or more effective.
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murphstahoe

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?
« Reply #5134 on: February 13, 2023, 11:35:40 AM »
Quote from: illiniray on February 13, 2023, 10:08:33 AM
This is consistent with what Fauci said about cloth masks in private. He never said they don't work. He said they have limits. What he said did not apply at all to surgical or the 95 masks.

Life is about probabilities. Humans are bad at risk assessment, the entire premise of the GOP is to exploit that vulnerability.
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No one in Mn

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?
« Reply #5135 on: February 14, 2023, 07:22:00 AM »
And only if the goal posts have stopped moving....
Fauci's email to his colleague which would refer to the masks that essentially everyone ended up wearing. This does not refer to well fitted N95s.

"Masks are really for infected people to prevent them from spreading infection to people who are not infected rather than protecting uninfected people from acquiring infection. The typical mask you buy in the drug store is not really effective in keeping out virus, which is small enough to pass through the material. It might, however, provide some slight benefit in keep out gross droplets if someone coughs or sneezes on you. I do not recommend that you wear a mask,.."
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Reacher

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?
« Reply #5136 on: February 14, 2023, 07:27:48 AM »
Quote from: Mn on February 14, 2023, 07:22:00 AM
And only if the goal posts have stopped moving....
Fauci's email to his colleague which would refer to the masks that essentially everyone ended up wearing. This does not refer to well fitted N95s.

"Masks are really for infected people to prevent them from spreading infection to people who are not infected rather than protecting uninfected people from acquiring infection. The typical mask you buy in the drug store is not really effective in keeping out virus, which is small enough to pass through the material. It might, however, provide some slight benefit in keep out gross droplets if someone coughs or sneezes on you. I do not recommend that you wear a mask,.."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/06/03/fact-check-missing-context-claim-mask-emails-fauci/7531267002/
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illiniray

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?
« Reply #5137 on: February 14, 2023, 11:11:58 AM »
Quote from: Mn on February 14, 2023, 07:22:00 AM
And only if the goal posts have stopped moving....
Fauci's email to his colleague which would refer to the masks that essentially everyone ended up wearing. This does not refer to well fitted N95s.

"Masks are really for infected people to prevent them from spreading infection to people who are not infected rather than protecting uninfected people from acquiring infection. The typical mask you buy in the drug store is not really effective in keeping out virus, which is small enough to pass through the material. It might, however, provide some slight benefit in keep out gross droplets if someone coughs or sneezes on you. I do not recommend that you wear a mask,.."

... particularly since you are going to a very low risk location." -- February 5 2020.

Let that context and  date slowly sink in.

We have already thoroughly discussed that the cloth masks are and  always have been better for preventing the spread of Covid than for preventing infection, just ss Fauci noted three years ago.

They do provide some protection against infection from respiratory droplets, especially if layered.

That has always been pretty much my understanding.

Idiots on Facebook told me masks were not only useless because the virus could pass right through. They said they were also harmful because they block oxygen and trap carbon dioxide. Even worse, when you cough or sneeze, they trap in all kinds of germs that grow in the mask really fast and you breathe all  that in.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2023, 11:15:38 AM by illiniray »
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ThePAMan

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?
« Reply #5138 on: February 14, 2023, 11:16:57 AM »
Looking forward to more vitriol here.
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illiniray

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?
« Reply #5139 on: February 14, 2023, 11:21:51 AM »
Quote from: Mn on February 14, 2023, 07:22:00 AM
And only if the goal posts have stopped moving....


The goal posts did move.

"Fauci said his understanding changed as more information became available about asymptomatic transmission of the virus and the effectiveness of masks outside of hospitals."
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No one in Mn

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?
« Reply #5140 on: February 14, 2023, 12:15:43 PM »
The masks people were getting in the drug store help to reduce transmission of droplets, not aerosolized virus. Just as Fauci said in the email.
His reversal over his email due to new knowledge about asymptomatic transmission should then also mean that that the masks are effective vs aerosolized transmission, which would be the primary mode of transmission in asymptomatic individuals.
The early mask studies addressed droplet or droplet/aerosolized transmission. Droplets would be seen in symptomatic individuals.

As a side note, the mention that the individual was going to an area with low viral activity doesn't follow. The primary sources of U.S. local transmission were assumed to be our airports and public transportation departing from airports. His colleague was going to the airport.
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illiniray

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?
« Reply #5141 on: February 14, 2023, 02:02:15 PM »
I see the disconnect. Respiratory droplets carrying viruses can also be ejected by talking, yelling, and singing. He probably only mentioned gross droplets from coughing and sneezing, because that was his / the understanding on Feb 5 2020, that only symptomatic people could spread it. It is noteworthy that symptomatic people also eject fine droplets.

My current updated understanding is the virus can be transmitted with gross or fine respiratory droplets ejected by coughing, sneezing, spitting, talking, yelling, singing and so on.

The finer droplets can apparently be aerosolized and float in the air. These can become concentrated in crowded locations with poor ventilation, resulting in the so called super spreader events.

The best evidence is the cloth mask can be effective at blocking both the gross and finer droplets, especially if layered.

Also, Fauci's email clearly meant that person should not need a mask at their destination, since he specifically  refers to the destination as being low risk. How the fyvk does it not follow if that is exactly what he wrote?
« Last Edit: February 14, 2023, 02:37:19 PM by illiniray »
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illiniray

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?
« Reply #5142 on: February 14, 2023, 03:31:43 PM »
I am unclear on the distinction between droplets and aerosols. I previously that some droplets dissolved in the air and became aerosolized. The masks help by blocking most of the droplets before they can become airborne or aerosolized. 
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No one in Mn

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?
« Reply #5143 on: February 14, 2023, 04:55:30 PM »
Quote from: illiniray on February 14, 2023, 03:31:43 PM
I am unclear on the distinction between droplets and aerosols. I previously that some droplets dissolved in the air and became aerosolized. The masks help by blocking most of the droplets before they can become airborne or aerosolized. 
It's more than just size but aerosols will pass thru a drug store mask and droplets generally won't. Unless they're cheap, porous masks made in China.  :D

Droplets will fall to the ground sooner or later and that's the rationale behind social distancing. Aerosols can remain airborne and ventilation or filtering reduce the concentration. There was never any reason to arrest solitary individuals outdoors for violating mask mandates.
 
High efficiency filtering in airplanes is why we never see anything, post mask mandates, with respect to covid case counts resulting from airplane environments. And installing high efficiency filtering in schools with Covid money was the recommendation to get kids back in school. How many did it ?

Asymptomatic transmission is primarily via aerosols and store bought masks have never been very effective vs aerosols.
And regarding Fauci's claim of new found effectiveness for community masking, there are plenty of studies saying drug store masks are and have always been ineffective. The CDC may have changed it's guidance and recommended wearing a bandana or getting out a needle, thread and some cloth and wearing a face covering indoors in poorly ventilated areas but we were also told not to buy N95s.

If there was 1 place, other than long term care facilities, to be most concerned in Feb 2020 it was probably airports. Incoming foreign airline travel and public transportation out of the airports were thought to be prime drivers in Covid spread.

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illiniray

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Re: WTF is the deal with the caronavirus?
« Reply #5144 on: February 14, 2023, 08:49:22 PM »
My understanding is still that a cloth mask serves as an effective barrier for respiratory droplets before they dissolve in the atmosphere and become aerosolized. That is consistent with what Fauci said about cloth masks and asymptomatic persons spreading Covid.
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