IlliniHQ 2
General Category => Fighting Illini Basketball Forum => Topic started by: frankiew on June 16, 2023, 09:46:29 AM
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kruger
self
weber
groce
underwood
how would you rank em? not HOW they did here but overall. who would be your #1 guy to your last choice?
mine?
Self
Kruger
Underwood
Weber
Groce
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Groce and Weber were both bad. Groce was at least likeable.
Self and Kruger were both good - Guenther, to his credit, hired two straight HOF type coaches to replace the HOF coach he inherited.
Underwood, we'll see. So far he's much closer to Self/Kruger than Weber/Groce, but the story isn't written yet.
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Easy:
Self
Kruger
Underwood
Weber
Groce
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Unfortunately, Groce has 1 more win in 5 years overall than Underwood has since 2017. Puts a lot in perspective actually, might be a reason for our early tourney losses...(they do fall into the "overall winning % category).
95-75 Groce
94-66 Underwood
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Illinois_Fighting_Illini_men%27s_basketball_head_coaches#:~:text=Lou%20Henson%2C%20after%20a%2021,wins%20and%20only%2024%20losses).
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Unfortunately, Groce has 1 more win in 5 years overall than Underwood has since 2017. Puts a lot in perspective actually, might be a reason for our early tourney losses...(they do fall into the "overall winning % category).
95-75 Groce
94-66 Underwood
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Illinois_Fighting_Illini_men%27s_basketball_head_coaches#:~:text=Lou%20Henson%2C%20after%20a%2021,wins%20and%20only%2024%20losses).
I’d be willing to give Underwood a little slack on that as I think he inherited a worse situation than Groce did. Obviously Underwood’s first couple of years were rough.
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I’d be willing to give Underwood a little slack on that as I think he inherited a worse situation than Groce did. Obviously Underwood’s first couple of years were rough.
I would tend to agree as well...BU brought us back to be in conversations, Groce made everyone want to get from the table.
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Unfortunately, Groce has 1 more win in 5 years overall than Underwood has since 2017. Puts a lot in perspective actually, might be a reason for our early tourney losses...(they do fall into the "overall winning % category).
95-75 Groce
94-66 Underwood
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Illinois_Fighting_Illini_men%27s_basketball_head_coaches#:~:text=Lou%20Henson%2C%20after%20a%2021,wins%20and%20only%2024%20losses).
Also gotta think Covid affected Underwood and possible wins too
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brad_Underwood
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I'd have to drink a lot than I have today to even consider Groce v Underwood a fair discussion. What in the world.
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I'd have to drink a lot than I have today to even consider Groce v Underwood a fair discussion. What in the world.
Agreed but the numbers don't lie...circumstances are much different, BU has built us back up somewhat, but we still need to have tourney success.
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Unfortunately, Groce has 1 more win in 5 years overall than Underwood has since 2017. Puts a lot in perspective actually, might be a reason for our early tourney losses...(they do fall into the "overall winning % category).
95-75 Groce
94-66 Underwood
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Illinois_Fighting_Illini_men%27s_basketball_head_coaches#:~:text=Lou%20Henson%2C%20after%20a%2021,wins%20and%20only%2024%20losses).
That is missing this year
114–79 Underwood
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That is missing this year
114–79 Underwood
true
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Agreed but the numbers don't lie...circumstances are much different, BU has built us back up somewhat, but we still need to have tourney success.
The numbers don't lie, they just indicate that Underwood's notably better than Groce was, even using your incorrect numbers.
It was a four year stretch where Underwood won one fewer game than Groce did in his five years.
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The numbers don't lie, they just indicate that Underwood's notably better than Groce was, even using your incorrect numbers.
It was a four year stretch where Underwood won one fewer game than Groce did in his five years.
Yes you are correct, as noted I acknowledged I had missed the final year, welcome to the party... ;D
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This is fairly easy, but could change. I am not quite as high on LK as others. On recruiting here, it was not his fault he was locked out of the Chicago bonanza. He also does not deserve full credit for the central Illinois feast. Overall, his record reflects his full court pressure defense, transition offense system -- peaks and valleys.
If we based it on winning percentage, overall, at UI, in B1G, it looks a little different.
BS: .769 .765 .729
BU .678 .591 .559
BW .622 .675 .578
LK .609 .628 .576
JG: .596 .559 .411
In perceptions, LK gets bumped up to second for personality, style, class; the Bradford, Sergio, Frank, Cookie recruiting; the 2 final fours, an E8, 2 S16s. The inconsistencies and mediocre overall record get overlooked.
BS
LK
BU
BW
JG
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Lon gets a lot of credit, rightfully so, because he inherited a mediocre program with an empty cupboard post sanctions and still won with them. He did get one year of Kiwane.
86-64 (57%) and .500 in conference the five years before he took over - those results would slot in at the bottom of that list of 5 coaches.
The flip side of that is Weber, who inherited a top-10 program and left a top-50ish program behind him, maybe.
He had a 'mediocre record' that was a massive improvement over the program he inherited.
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Lon's overall record was mediocre, marked by inconsistencies, and peaks and valleys everywhere he coached. Not just at Illinois.
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Lon made the Final Four at two different schools and the Elite 8 at three. Illinois isn't on either of those lists. He was a great coach no matter where he was.
At Kansas State he took over a program that had been 56-59 (18-37) with no tournament appearances in the four years before he got there. He won 64% of his games overall, 61% of his conference games in four years with four tournament appearances and an Elite 8.
Florida is probably where he did the worst job, but he still took over a program that had been 7-21 (3-15) the year before with an empty cupboard, and made two tournaments there in 6 years with a Final Four.
Illinois had been 73-49 (59%) and 38-34 (52%) in conference with no tournament wins in the four years before he got there. He won 63% overall and 58% of his conference games in four years, including three tournament wins. He also, obviously, recruited some of Self's best teams at Illinois.
UNLV had missed four straight tournaments when he got there, with Spoonhour winning 55% of his conference games. Lon won ~70% of his games there over 7 years including 65% of his conference games, and made 4 out of 7 tournaments with a S16, their first since Tark left.
Oklahoma was 9 games under .500 in the last two years of Capel's tenure and Lon won 60% of his games there over 10 seasons including 7 appearances in 9 held tournaments and a Final Four.
Pretty much everywhere he's gone, he's taken over a program in the gutter and left a program that was contending for tournament success. This notion that his results were mediocre just isn't found in evidence.
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Lon Kruger won 61% overall. That is the definition of mediocre results. Now, I know a lot of lot of people would be happy with mediocre results if it meant 2 final fours. He also played an exciting style of ball, with pressure d, and a fast break offense with transition threes. His personality was also appealing. He still was 674–432 (.609) as a college coach.
Lon went 25-9 and 11-3 with an E8 his 2nd year at K-State. His 4th and final season there: 17-15 and 7-7; lost in the first round.
His 4th year at FL, he was 29-8 and 12-4; went to the Final 4. His 6th and final year; 12-16, 6-10, no postseason.
At OK, he was 29-8, 12-6, with a Final 4 his 5th year. His 10th and final final year he was 16-11, 9-8, with a 2nd round loss.
Peaks and Valleys.
His best run was 7 seasons at UNLV 161–71 (.694) with A S16 his 3rd season.
Overall WP Comparisons subject to review:
BS: 787–237 (.769)
DM: 151–66 (.696)
HC: 316-150 (.678)
BU: 223–106 (.678)
LH: 779–412 (.654)
GB: 647-353 (.647)
BW: 497–302 (.622)
LK: 674–432 (.609)
JG: 296–201 (.596)
HS: 89–77. (.536)
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Here is an exciting little known fact. There are photographers named Doug Mills and Bruce Weber
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Just ignore all context to make a hall of fame coach out to be mediocre.
Never change, nichi. I know he coached in the last 60 years, but that doesn't mean he was mediocre despite reality.
The amount of context you have to ignore to pull his pure winning percentage, plug your ears, and yell "mediocre!" is staggering.
Safe to assume you think Lou Henson's results were mediocre too? He won 4% more games despite spending about twice as many years at low- and mid-major schools, and had a worse tournament record than Kruger.
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I ran into a pretty high level AAU club director this week. He said he has known Underwood for decades since his juco coaching days.
Thinks the present roster issue at PG is pretty crazy. Says what you see from Underwood is pretty accurate. LOL.
FWIW I would have to go:
Self
Kruger
Weber
Underwood
Groce
Both UW and Weber pretty flawed interpersonally. Both had some high peaks here.
Overall total coaching record Weber much better when you factor in NCAA tourney, but Underwood has time to turn it around.
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Winning 60% of your games makes you a top 50 program all-time. Considering he did that at multiple schools with sanctions or tournament droughts it's far from "mediocre." It's more impressive than what Mark Few has done.
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Yeah, 61% career winning percentage is not mediocre.
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I disagree with Nichi. Yet, I think the information he provided showing how Lon would reach an apex at each program that he could not sustain was interesting and informative.
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Yeah, 61% career winning percentage is not mediocre.
I must have higher standards than you? It's certainly not great. I have a hard time calling it good. Is 59% mediocre? Lou Henson won 59% post Gill, Liberty, and Bardo. That got him retired.
Last year, Underwood won 61%. Most agree that was a mediocre / fair to middling season. Some consider it a failure. If he continues at that rate, he'll need deep runs in the NCAA to save his job.
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I must have higher standards than you? It's certainly not great. I have a hard time calling it good. Is 59% mediocre? Lou Henson won 59% post Gill, Liberty, and Bardo. That got him retired.
Last year, Underwood won 61%. Most agree that was a mediocre / fair to middling season. Some consider it a failure. If he continues at that rate, he'll need deep runs in the NCAA to save his job.
Lou was always likable as well...not sure BU is, and not sure that he needs to be. That said, I think he HAS to do something BIG this year in order for the rumors to not start flying.
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I must have higher standards than you? It's certainly not great. I have a hard time calling it good. Is 59% mediocre? Lou Henson won 59% post Gill, Liberty, and Bardo. That got him retired.
Last year, Underwood won 61%. Most agree that was a mediocre / fair to middling season. Some consider it a failure. If he continues at that rate, he'll need deep runs in the NCAA to save his job.
You do not think any of the "drama" associated with the basketball program helped get Lou Henson fired?
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You do not think any of the "drama" associated with the basketball program helped get Lou Henson fired?
The BP drama and 2 year probation contributed to mediocre results his last 6 seasons; which led to a forced retirement. It was the results though. He wasn't forced out in 1990. He lasted 6 more seasons.
Other factors contributed. Like not adjusting to the changes in the recruiting landscape.
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Says what you see from Underwood is pretty accurate. LOL.
Don’t think I’m understanding this comment.
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I ran into a pretty high level AAU club director this week. He said he has known Underwood for decades since his juco coaching days.
Thinks the present roster issue at PG is pretty crazy. Says what you see from Underwood is pretty accurate. LOL.
FWIW I would have to go:
Self
Kruger
Weber
Underwood
Groce
Both UW and Weber pretty flawed interpersonally. Both had some high peaks here.
Overall total coaching record Weber much better when you factor in NCAA tourney, but Underwood has time to turn it around.
It's pretty hard to fight against the tide when you put a guy who inherited a top-10 program and left a top-75ish program ahead of a guy who inherited maybe a top-75 program and currently has built a top-25ish program.
There's simply no reasonable justification for that IMO. Weber inherited the best this program has ever been and left a decade of mediocrity in his wake, he was a disaster. Underwood inherited the result of that decade of mediocrity, quickly made us nationally relevant again, and has already been turned on.
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It's pretty hard to fight against the tide when you put a guy who inherited a top-10 program and left a top-75ish program ahead of a guy who inherited maybe a top-75 program and currently has built a top-25ish program.
There's simply no reasonable justification for that IMO. Weber inherited the best this program has ever been and left a decade of mediocrity in his wake, he was a disaster. Underwood inherited the result of that decade of mediocrity, quickly made us nationally relevant again, and has already been turned on.
This.
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It's pretty hard to fight against the tide when you put a guy who inherited a top-10 program and left a top-75ish program ahead of a guy who inherited maybe a top-75 program and currently has built a top-25ish program.
There's simply no reasonable justification for that IMO. Weber inherited the best this program has ever been and left a decade of mediocrity in his wake, he was a disaster. Underwood inherited the result of that decade of mediocrity, quickly made us nationally relevant again, and has already been turned on.
Weber had a 15-13 record in NCAA's.
He was 9-6 here in tourney at Illinois in 9 seasons. A S16 and an NCAA Final.
Had three different teams in a S16 or better.
Guy was a dork, but got it done more than UW.
Not even close to compare these guys, but carry on.
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How many NBA players and All Americans did Brad Underwood inherit?
Weber's tournament record is MASSIVELY helped by the two years he had with 5 NBA guys and three All Americans. He was 7-2 with those guys. He was 1-2 in 5 seasons after Self's guys left. He was 3-5 in 10 years at KSU, all three wins came in one year - one of them was the very first second-round game a 16 seed had ever played in.
At Illinois, he inherited a program that had made the tournament 9 out of the previous 11 seasons, including a couple in there that were right after sanctions. After year three, he won one tournament game in his last 6 years. He took a program that was humming along, probably a top-10 program at the time, and ran it off the cliff.
Even at KSU, he inherited a program that had made three straight tournaments with 5 wins in the previous three seasons. He made the tournament half the time there, and won less than those 5 games in 10 years. Drove that one off the cliff too.
He was a disaster at both high majors he went to, a mediocre coach who inherited two separate high major programs near their historic peak and left mediocre programs behind in both places.
Just reciting his tournament record completely context-free doesn't do anything for me at all, but I suppose makes some sense from someone who also removes all context when discussing our current coach.
Were you a big Weber fan at the time? Why or why not?
I agree, it isn't close. Weber had two chances to inherit programs with lots of recent success and drove both off the cliff into obscurity. Underwood inherited a program as bad as it'd been for decades and within a couple years had them as a 1 seed and consistent tourney participant. It isn't close, you're not wrong about that.
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How many NBA players and All Americans did Brad Underwood inherit?
Weber's tournament record is MASSIVELY helped by the two years he had with 5 NBA guys and three All Americans. He was 7-2 with those guys. He was 1-2 in 5 seasons after Self's guys left. He was 3-5 in 10 years at KSU, all three wins came in one year - one of them was the very first second-round game a 16 seed had ever played in.
So he had good players and got the job done?
You just made my point.
Hell, he even had a S16 and EE at schools without any All Americans on his roster.
Underwood gets a couple more bites at the apple. Let's see what he does. Hope he succeeds.
I especially like Domask who could be a big surprise. A nice change to get a guy with really good BB fundamentals.
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So he had good players and got the job done?
You just made my point.
Hell, he even had a S16 and EE at schools without any All Americans on his roster.
Underwood gets a couple more bites at the apple. Let's see what he does. Hope he succeeds.
I especially like Domask who could be a big surprise. A nice change to get a guy with really good BB fundamentals.
He inherited great players - NBA guys and all Americans - had some early success, then drove the entire program off a ledge. Twice.
If you think that made your point, your point must've changed somewhere along the way. I thought it was that Weber was a better coach than Underwood, and the evidence indicates that he wasn't a very good coach at all.
You're taking a guy who multiple times took over a high major program and left it WAY worse than he found it, and saying he's notably better (it's not close) to a guy who took over our high major program and currently has it WAY better than he found it. It only works if you close your eyes and completely ignore 100% of context.
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Imagine what you'd have said the day we hired Underwood if I'd said - he will resurrect the program, we will be a consistent tournament team within 3 years and get a 1-seed within 4, he will recruit our first TWO AP first team AA's ever, and you will be lamenting that Bruce Weber was a better basketball coach within 6 because Weber inherited Deron, Dee, and Luther.
I assume you'd have correctly laughed in my face.
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Weber had a 15-13 record in NCAA's.
He was 9-6 here in tourney at Illinois in 9 seasons. A S16 and an NCAA Final.
Had three different teams in a S16 or better.
Guy was a dork, but got it done more than UW.
Not even close to compare these guys, but carry on.
You’re really going to count Weber’s teams that were entirely composed of Bill Self players like they count the same as the ones he recruited (and failed with) himself here? Good lord.
Yeah he made a S16 and a gifted E8 with his own players over the course of 25 years of D1 head coaching. If Brad keeps coaching another 16-17 years and is making the tourney every year, odds are he will, at worst, luck into the same or better results over that same amount of time.
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Some of y’all’s revisionist history regarding Weber is fucked up. Lol keep it up. Dude destroyed our program and you are complaining about Underwood. Gtfooh.
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https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/2023-nba-draft-brandin-podziemski-goes-from-bored-baseball-standout-to-fulfilling-hoops-aspirations/
Pretty good article with one GLARING point made...Coach doesn't sound good in this article.
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It actually works reasonably well - Underwood took 3 years to rebuild the program, and Weber's best players were Self recruits for 3 years before he had to build a program himself.
After that point, Weber was 121-85 (.587) and 50-56 (.471) in conference with three tournament appearances and one win in his final 6 years.
After the same three year period, Underwood has been 67-30 (.690) and 42-18 (.700) in conference with three tournament appearances and two wins in the last three years.
I agree, it isn't close.
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Weber's NCAA record includes a 7-2 section where he had 3 guys who made all-american lists, the schools all-time leading rebounder, and a guy who averaged 12/6 as a senior and got a cup of coffee in the league.
Weber recruited none of these guys nor coached them in their developmental years.
Like, Weber coached them, but I would submit a lot of generic replacement coaches would've coached those teams into the second weekend.
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He inherited a team that was ranked preseason #13 before he'd coached them at all. Finished that season ranked #13.
After Deron Williams left post year-2, he was ranked #13 or better one week in the next 7 years (#12 for a week in 2010-11 and then lost to UIC at the United Center Finished that year unranked, but DID get his only post-Dee NCAA win). He never finished a season ranked here after Dee Brown graduated in year 3.
Revisionist history is putting it very nicely.
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Question: Would Underachiever actually have done a better job than Weber had Underachiever inherited Self's players?
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Question: Would Underachiever actually have done a better job than Weber had Underachiever inherited Self's players?
Probably.
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Hard to know.
Once Weber got buy-in from those guys, he kind of inherited a near perfect roster for the motion system he wanted to run. And he'd shown the ability to coach that system well with lower-level guys, but the system kind of relies on all the guys on the court being unselfish, good passers (all three starting guards he inherited played point guard in the NBA), good shooters etc. and getting full buy-in from everybody. It was like just getting a huge talent infusion to the system he was already running well - and it still took some time, as I'm sure you remember.
It's hard to know if Underwood would've had that kind of success, he's mostly run a totally different offense that I don't think would've fit those 03-05 guys as well.
I do think Underwood (at least, the current Underwood in 2023) would've done a hell of a lot better here after Dee Brown graduated than Weber did.
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I do think Underwood (at least, the current Underwood in 2023) would've done a hell of a lot better here after Dee Brown graduated than Weber did.
True, but that is not really saying a lot, is it?
Appreciate the analysis above.
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Probably.
I do not know, man. I think that is a tough call. But I do appreciate that Underachiever can change certain things up when they are not working.
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I do not know, man. I think that is a tough call. But I do appreciate that Underachiever can change certain things up when they are not working.
I answered you hypothetical with the same probably you did to mine regarding Painter. There’s absolutely no way to know if Underwood would or would not in your hypothetical. We do know that the Illini fan base WOULD have already turned on Painter after this past season. Especially considering they are with Underwood's results.
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I answered you hypothetical with the same probably you did to mine regarding Painter. There’s absolutely no way to know if Underwood would or would not in your hypothetical. We do know that the Illini fan base WOULD have already turned on Painter after this past season. Especially considering they are with Underwood's results.
If Painter was here and flailed in the tourney like Underachiever did with Ayo and Kofi, we would be having the same discussion.
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Painter loses to double digit seeds.
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I’m obviously not a huge Underwood fan (he’s fine), but he’s absolutely better than Weber. However, I think Weber would have done better with Self’s players than Underwood would have. Hard to argue with a near perfect season and coming up just short in a title game against a behemoth that got all the calls and used ineligible players.
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Weber is an idiot, but was smart enough to stay out of Deron's way.
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Lon gets a lot of credit, rightfully so, because he inherited a mediocre program with an empty cupboard post sanctions and still won with them. He did get one year of Kiwane.
86-64 (57%) and .500 in conference the five years before he took over - those results would slot in at the bottom of that list of 5 coaches.
Or 107-74 59% the last 6 (post Gill, Bardo, Liberty)
Or 79-43 60% the last 4 (post probation)..
I see no reason to choose the last 4 [edit 5] except to get a lower percentage.
Either way, 59 / 60% was a middling result; which was why Lou was forced to retire.
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Question: Would Underachiever actually have done a better job than Weber had Underachiever inherited Self's players?
So I would vote no on years 1-2 and yes on years 3-on. In this alternate history, for starters I don't think the full roster is there in 04-05 and I'm not sure BU finds better immediate replacement parts.
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So I would vote no on years 1-2 and yes on years 3-on. In this alternate history, for starters I don't think the full roster is there in 04-05 and I'm not sure BU finds better immediate replacement parts.
Agreed.
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Don't take away webers runner up year
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Or 107-74 59% the last 6 (post Gill, Bardo, Liberty)
Or 79-43 60% the last 4 (post probation)..
I see no reason to choose the last 4, except to get a lower percentage.
Either way, 59 / 60% was a middling result; which was why Lou was forced to retire.
Yes, there's no really obvious or logical reason to use four year spans to discuss college sports.
I know you pine for the era these guys could only play three years, but still.
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I know you pine for the era these guys could only play three years, but still.
Straw man of the decade. I guess when you have nothing else, you can result to complete garbage.
Your arguments in support of Underwood are actually reasonable
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I think there is an emotional attachment to Lon Kruger. He is a nice guy. He coached a fun style. He did a pretty good job here, not great. The program was not in a shambles. We had largely recovered from BP and probation
I think the real reason Lou had to step down was he was not in good shape with either the upcoming Chicago or Peoria recruiting bonanzas.
Maybe I am harsh calling .609 for a long, 35 year, 1106 game career mediocre. It is clearly not great. I have trouble calling it very good. It's pretty much the bare minimum to be considered competent. A moderate success. Fair to middling. The postseason successes boosted his rep.
LH:
H-S: .650
NMS: .662
UI: .654
OA: .654
LK:
TX-PA: .468
K-State .638
Florida .565
UI: .628
UNLV: .694
OK-St.: .604
OA: .609
I won't bring up his NBA failure.
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Straw man of the decade. I guess when you have nothing else, you can result to complete garbage.
Your arguments in support of Underwood are actually reasonable
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I think there is an emotional attachment to Lon Kruger. He is a nice guy. He coached a fun style. He did a pretty good job here, not great. The program was not in a shambles. We had largely recovered from BP and probation
I think the real reason Lou had to step down was he was not in good shape with either the upcoming Chicago or Peoria recruiting bonanzas.
Maybe I am harsh calling .609 for a long, 35 year, 1106 game career mediocre. It is clearly not great. I have trouble calling it very good. It's pretty much the bare minimum to be considered competent. A moderate success. Fair to middling. The postseason successes boosted his rep.
LH:
H-S: .650
NMS: .662
UI: .654
OA: .654
LK:
TX-PA: .468
K-State .638
Florida .565
UI: .628
UNLV: .694
OK-St.: .604
OA: .609
I won't bring up his NBA failure.
As long as you simply ignore the state of the program when he took it over - something he did at three separate schools - your takes are totally reasonable.
Back here in the real world though, where he took over a nearly empty cupboard and a mediocre program that had won one tournament game in the previous 6 seasons after sanctions, he did a spectacular job and really set the table for one of the very best runs in our program's history.
It's simply revisionist history. It's the EXACT same logic people are using right now about Underwood. Just ignore all context.
I've gotta just laugh at the "why use 4 years?" attitude. One single second of thought would lead you to the why.
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It's simply revisionist history. It's the EXACT same logic people are using right now about Underwood. Just ignore all context.
I do not believe this is exactly true. Yes, the program is back to where the expectation is that the team has a great chance to make The Tournament every year. One thing troubling to me, obviously, is what happened when he had Ayo and Kofi and completely shit the bed in The Tournament. There seems to be an issue when it comes to his coaching of that second game in The Tournament.
He's a competent coach. He can be flexible in changing schemes when one is not working. Is he a great coach that will get Illinois into Blue Blood/UConn Territory? I hope so, but I am skeptical based on what we have seen.
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I've gotta just laugh at the "why use 4 years?" attitude. One single second of thought would lead you to the why.
I used the last 6 years and the last 4 years of Henson's program. I explained why. 6 reflected what happened after Gill, Bardo, and Liberty were gone. 4, after probation ended..
You cited 5 years. I saw no reason except to get a worse winning percentage and make it look like the program was in worse shape than it was.
The situation Lon inherited was quite a bit better than what Henson and Underwood inherited. Despite Pearl and Slive, Lou still left the program in better shape than he found it.
LK also left it in better shape than he found it, but there is context to that too. He came into a favorable downstate recruiting situation. On the negative side, he was pretty much locked out of Chicago, dimming long range prospects for success.
Was it Pat Kennedy who raked in and wasted all that Chicago talent at DePud? The door was subsequently reopened for UI and Weber was clueless ...
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Like Lon Kruger, when Lou Henson came here, he found himself mostly locked out of Chicago. DePaul cleaned up. Knight came into Illinois and took what he wanted.
It took time, but Henson and Tony Yates patiently cultivated relationships and earned the trust of a handful of influential CPL coaches.
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Seems like you're intentionally trying to obfuscate now.
The point remains: Kruger took over a program here that was not in good shape, and built the foundations of the Self era in his three years. He did a great job, but now you're trying to remove the context from his numbers here (ignoring that he had to rebuild, and did in his three years) to pretend he was a mediocre coach. And then you did it again at his other stops.
Florida, obviously the worst job Kruger did. But it's not a coincidence that he took over three other high major programs in need of a rebuild, and successfully rebuilt them. He didn't get into the CBB Hall of Fame by accident.
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In the one case, 4 years tells us nothing. In the other, Kruger was here 4 years and that was enough to tell us he did a great job.
I wonder how many college basketball coaches with 60.9% winning percentages are in the hall of fame?
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Jud Heathcote, who won 60% of his games, is also in the National Collegiate Basketball Hall of Fame.
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I'm just glad Underachiever finally got an Illini picked in the first round of the NBA draft....
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I'm just glad Underachiever finally got an Illini picked in the first round of the NBA draft....
Lol
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"For all sad words of tongue and pen, The saddest are these, 'It might have been'."
-John Greenleaf Whittier
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I'm just glad Underachiever finally got an Illini picked in the first round of the NBA draft....
Better chance of Podz getting minutes for Golden State than with Illinois.
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Better chance of Podz getting minutes for Golden State than with Illinois.
He won't have to defend his own shadow.
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Florida, obviously the worst job Kruger did. But it's not a coincidence that he took over three other high major programs in need of a rebuild, and successfully rebuilt them. He didn't get into the CBB Hall of Fame by accident.
At K-State, FL, and OK-State, he built them up, then had a steep decline, and then he left. Peaks and Valleys. Quite similar to what Capel did at OK-ST. Two years before LK arrived, Capel had them in the E8. There is some context.
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In the one case, 4 years tells us nothing. In the other, Kruger was here 4 years and that was enough to tell us he did a great job.
I wonder how many college basketball coaches with 60.9% winning percentages are in the hall of fame?
Probably not that many, but more than a few because most people aren't simple enough to simply remove all context from someone's career and spout off winning percentages.
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At K-State, FL, and OK-State, he built them up, then had a steep decline, and then he left. Peaks and Valleys. Quite similar to what Capel did at OK-ST. Two years before LK arrived, Capel had them in the E8. There is some context.
Oklahoma. Not OK State.
It's funny to see you try to include 'context' now. Yes, three years before he got there they were in the E8. Then they went 27-36 (9-23) in the two years before he arrived.
He inherited a program in a very poor state. As I have been saying from the beginning. You can keep pretending otherwise, it doesn't tell me anything I didn't already know, but you sound silly.
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I stand by original comments.on Lon Kruger. Upon reviewing my posts, I saw a couple obvious senior moments / brain farts. Those are going to happen.
I know the context. He coached at historically good programs that were down. He typically built them back up, had a steep decline, and left. Not always. His overall winning percentage was not all that good.
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Nichi, shut the fuck up.
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Nichi, shut the fuck up.
LOL.
Jobu must be feeling better.
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Nichi, shut the fuck up.
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/mGK1g88HZRa2FlKGbz/giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e47hrr9ggf4jz9m69fpwb5rftxpokis788dlnshbz0m&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)
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LOL.
Jobu must be feeling better.
Was always the biggest prick here; which says a lot.
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Was always the biggest prick here; which says a lot.
Another shitty opinion.
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Another shitty opinion.
Sorry, I should not have said you are the biggest prick. The stupidest prick would be more accurate.
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Was always the biggest prick here; which says a lot.
You are really good guy and smart BB guy, but a little tightly wound sometimes. 😂
Jobu is a fcking legend here.
Let's all just enjoy no more psychofck Legends and Pedophile Fcktard Squeaky.
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I mean, Bill Self by a country mile right. Groce in last by about the same distance.
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You are really good guy and smart BB guy, but a little tightly wound sometimes. 😂
Jobu is a fcking legend here.
Let's all just enjoy no more psychofck Legends and Pedophile Fcktard Squeaky.
Lkdog is a smart mother fucker.
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A side note
https://www.thetelegraph.com/sports/article/LOREN-TATE-Plenty-of-reasons-for-basketball-13511970.php
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Nichi, shut the fuck up.
No. I can disagree and still manage to have cordial discussions.
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No. I can disagree and still manage to have cordial discussions.
Ok. And I can tell you to shut the fuck up.
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Ok. And I can tell you to shut the fuck up.
And now it is again a free country where you can tell someone you don't want to provide commercial services for them because they are a homo. So we have that going for us. Again.
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And now it is again a free country where you can tell someone you don't want to provide commercial services for them because they are a homo. So we have that going for us. Again.
Welcome back. Your keen insight and sharp incites have been missed.
Is the court about to restore the right of wife beaters to keep and bear arms?
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Welcome back. Your keen insight and sharp incites have been missed.
Is the court about to restore the right of wife beaters to keep and bear arms?
More keen incites and insights for you on your question: Undoubtedly since George Washington used to beat the crap out of Martha.
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More keen incites and insights for you on your question: Undoubtedly since George Washington used to beat the crap out of Martha.
Bitch kept talkin' without permission.
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Bitch kept talkin' without permission.
He already told her twice
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Bitch kept talkin' without permission.
And women be shoppin
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Not only the best rap song about George Washington, but one of the best songs of all time.
https://youtu.be/sbRom1Rz8OA
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More keen incites and insights for you on your question: Undoubtedly since George Washington used to beat the crap out of Martha.
Snoop gonna fu*k up Georgie....
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I think it's safe to say people UNDERVALUE Kruger