IlliniHQ 2
General Category => Fighting Illini Basketball Forum => Topic started by: Judge Judy on November 17, 2021, 09:51:52 PM
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I’d start with Sherron Collins due to significance of the miss at the time.
A very close second would be Jalen Brunson.
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Julian Wright doesn’t qualify (05 recruit) but his recruitment was the canary in the coal mine.
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Julian Wright doesn’t qualify (05 recruit) but his recruitment was the canary in the coal mine.
I’d throw IDKWTI in there when and how he switched Indiana.
Maybe Cliff Alexander (even though he was a huge bust) for embarrassing the program on the National stage with the “hat trick.”
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Robbie Hummel 2007
Fred Van Vleet 2012
Alec Peters 2013
Jevon Carter 2014
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The biggest misses were on guys we failed to even offer. Guys like Jerel McNeal, Jacob Pullen, Fred Van Vleet, and I believe Kaminsky was in that group. There’s more, but recruiting the last 20 years has been largely wiped from my memory bank.
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Ethan Happ, but so did everyone else in the B1G not named Bo Ryan.
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Derek Rose
Jon Scheyer
Although neither were ever coming here, so not sure you could count those as a miss.
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Derek Rose
Jon Scheyer
Although neither were ever coming here, so not sure you could count those as a miss.
I’d argue those were the two least important.
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Ethan Happ, but so did everyone else in the B1G not named Bo Ryan.
Was going to put him on my list, but felt it was long enough. Not being able to identify talent has hurt our program more over the last 15 years than missing on the 5 stars.
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Was going to put him on my list, but felt it was long enough. Not being able to identify talent has hurt our program more over the last 15 years than, than missing on the 5 stars.
Illinois kid, who I believe wanted to come here. Bad timing.
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EJ Liddell
Jon Scheyer
Sherron Collins
Keita Bates Diop
Jalen Brunson
Simply based on collegiate productivity. The 1 and dones like Rose, Gordon, Cliff I don't think hurt much since they were only in college a year. And guys like Happ/Kaminsky/Fred VanVleet could not have been projected to be as good as they ended up being.
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EJ Liddell
Jon Scheyer
Sherron Collins
Keita Bates Diop
Jalen Brunson
Simply based on collegiate productivity. The 1 and dones like Rose, Gordon, Cliff I don't think hurt much since they were only in college a year. And guys like Happ/Kaminsky/Fred VanVleet could not have been projected to be as good as they ended up being.
But they were very attainable players at a time when we weren’t exactly crushing it in recruiting. We’ve taken lesser recruits.
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But they were very attainable players at a time when we weren’t exactly crushing it in recruiting. We’ve taken lesser recruits.
This.
Hummel wanted to come here, but Weber ignored him on a visit, then stopped calling after Cole committed.
UI fans were pushing Van Vleet when Howard was chasing the kid from Manteno.
Peters was a big with post skills who could also handle and shoot.
I did not mention McNeal because he was 2005. iirc, Pullen had an issue?
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But they were very attainable players at a time when we weren’t exactly crushing it in recruiting. We’ve taken lesser recruits.
Sure they were attainable just like Brandon Lieb and Mike Tisdale were too, but nobody knows how good they will turn out.
Happ, Kaminsky, Lieb, Tisdale, Leonard. If you ask me who Illinois should recruit, it was Meyers Leonard bc he was a freak athlete, good shooter, highly rated. The other 4 guys, if I was coach, I wouldn’t have taken either if I saw them in HS.
Fred was a miss but I mean it’s stunning how his NBA career has developed. For a guy not very athletic, to be skilled enough to start and get paid 20+ mils is crazy. Nobody would have thought he’d turn out that good. If I was coach looking at HS players, I’d have taken PGs like Justin Dentmon and Lewis Jackson who had D1 athleticism ahead of Fred. That’s why he didn’t have many high D1 offers.
We can play this same game now. Jalen Quinn from Tuscola signed with Loyola. Should Underwood have signed him? I just can’t get on the staff for missing guys that turned out way better than anyone thought they’d be.
I get more upset when we miss on guys that you expect to be productive college players
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Sure they were attainable just like Brandon Lieb and Mike Tisdale were too, but nobody knows how good they will turn out.
Isn’t the ability scout and project pretty important for a coach? Particularly coaches that routinely miss out on the obvious stars?
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Isn’t the ability scout and project pretty important for a coach? Particularly coaches that routinely miss out on the obvious stars?
sometimes coaches just get lucky
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sometimes coaches just get lucky
But why were we always unlucky?
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But why were we always unlucky?
because Illinois?
and we weren't always super unlucky, had a few diamonds in the rough like Mike Davis and Chester Frazier
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Why were other coaches in other states “getting lucky” with Illinois players?
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Why were other coaches in other states “getting lucky” with Illinois players?
You're not really this dumb are you?
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You're not really this dumb are you?
I suppose I am.
Illinois high schoolers kept going on to excellent college careers, and we kept overlooking them.
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Evan Turner, Iman Shumpert & Patrick Beverley come to mind.
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Evan Turner, Iman Shumpert & Patrick Beverley come to mind.
Evan Turner was a HUGE miss
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Forgot to mention E.J. Liddell, who is having a solid career at Ohio State. But it's football season still...
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Why were other coaches in other states “getting lucky” with Illinois players?
For every Krutwig, Kaminsky, Van Vleet, Happ, Rayvonte Rice there are far more guys in that range that do nothing in college and you’d be upset if Illinois gave them a ride.
Illinois recruiting problems stem from not landing guys everyone knew would be good in college. Not missing on projects that other teams developed.
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For every Krutwig, Kaminsky, Van Vleet, Happ, Rayvonte Rice there are far more guys in that range that do nothing in college and you’d be upset if Illinois gave them a ride.
Illinois recruiting problems stem from not landing guys everyone knew would be good in college. Not missing on projects that other teams developed.
Eat a bagful of farts.
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The point is, we missed on the obvious ones, and missed on the less obvious ones as well. There’s a reason programs like Wisconsin, Wichita State, and Marquette offered those kids scholarships; so it’s not like they were blind stabs in the dark.
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Evan Turner was a HUGE miss
Bruce Weber wasted a lot of time and energy chasing a tOSU lock
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The moral of the story (for me) is that I wouldn’t be upset at Illinois for offering a 1st team all-state Illinois kid if they are striking out on the vast majority of the 5 star and top 100 kids. Which is what we did for the better part of 15+ years. A ton of those 3 star, lesser regarded 4 star players went on to fantastic careers.
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The point is, we missed on the obvious ones, and missed on the less obvious ones as well. There’s a reason programs like Wisconsin, Wichita State, and Marquette offered those kids scholarships; so it’s not like they were blind stabs in the dark.
Lots of UI fans singled out those guys in high school.
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because Illinois?
and we weren't always super unlucky, had a few diamonds in the rough like Mike Davis and Chester Frazier
Lol “Chester Frazier”
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Chester Frazier. God damn, that’s funny. Funny how the worst 3 year starter in school history has become a folk hero. Chester was the embodiment of what was wrong with the program during his era, not a “diamond in the rough.” Not Chester’s fault, he just didn’t belong at this level. It took him 4 years (and way too many minutes of valuable PT) to become a useful player.
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Chester Frazier. God damn, that’s funny. Funny how the worst 3 year starter in school history has become a folk hero. Chester was the embodiment of what was wrong with the program during his era, not a “diamond in the rough.” Not Chester’s fault, he just didn’t belong at this level. It took him 4 years (and way too many minutes of valuable PT) to become a useful player.
He should have had 3 to 5 minutes less PT per game?
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He should have had 3 to 5 minutes less PT per game?
35 minutes less per game.
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I remember his junior year, when Purdue elected not to guard him, and it was a good strategy as Purdue won the game by about 10
Edit: 17
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I have no idea why we would have trouble recruiting to the middle of a corn field.
(https://i.ibb.co/CvrPsGm/images.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/BrzcZKr/images-1.jpg)
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"We did not guard Chester Frazier and Calvin Brock in there," Purdue coach Matt Painter said. "We tried to bait them into scoring. We weren't going to let the ball go inside. If they could have made a couple of those shots, we would have been stuck."
They didn't. Frazier shot 1 of 7 and appeared indecisive at times when the Boilermakers left him alone on the perimeter. Brock finished 0 for 4.
https://www.news-gazette.com/sports/illini-sports/frazier-struggles-with-open-shots-guards-cant-deliver-ball-down-low/article_d2a6c317-e571-5f40-b701-ff1d857611ae.html
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His junior year, Chester was 7th in the Big Ten in minutes played, and 6th on his team in scoring at 4.9 ppg.
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Lots of UI fans singled out those guys in high school.
Maybe Josh should try crowdsourcing.
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Maybe Josh should try crowdsourcing.
The truly sad part is that crowdsourcing would undoubtedly be better than whatever it is he is doing.
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Chester Frazier...the worst 3 year starter in school history...
I'm gonna have to think on this awhile, but I'm coming up blank. There's got to be somebody worse, right?
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Three year starter? Wouldn’t think so.
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Jaylon Tate? Idk if he started for three years but it seemed like it. Can’t believe he is in the G League.
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Jaylon Tate? Idk if he started for three years but it seemed like it. Can’t believe he is in the G League.
Yeah, that's a good one.
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Tracy Abrams? He was here for like 10 years and started all of them because we didn’t have anyone else for those 10 years. Scared off all the competition 😂
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His junior year, Chester was 7th in the Big Ten in minutes played, and 6th on his team in scoring at 4.9 ppg.
So he wasn't the 2nd coming of Dee Brown.
Still, he also averaged 3.6 apg & 4.9 rpg that season.
https://web.archive.org/web/20130625151143/http://www.fightingillini.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/frazier_chester00.html
Frazier got the most out of his talent. He always played hard and gave it his best. And his assist numbers (and the team's record) would probably have been better if Jamar Smith hadn't been such a dumbass while he was at Illinois.
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Chester Frazier was the embodiment of our programs’ struggles for 15 years. Not a shining example of a diamond in the rough. He didn’t belong at this level. He probably didn’t belong at UW-Milwaukee.
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So he wasn't the 2nd coming of Dee Brown.
Still, he also averaged 3.6 apg & 4.9 rpg that season.
https://web.archive.org/web/20130625151143/http://www.fightingillini.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/frazier_chester00.html
Frazier got the most out of his talent. He always played hard and gave it his best. And his assist numbers (and the team's record) would probably have been better if Jamar Smith hadn't been such a dumbass while he was at Illinois.
I'm sure Tempo and Nichi will blame someone other than Smith for his own screwups.
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A diamond in the rough is a Van Vleet, a Kaminsky, or a Pullen.
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So he wasn't the 2nd coming of Dee Brown.
Still, he also averaged 3.6 apg & 4.9 rpg that season.
https://web.archive.org/web/20130625151143/http://www.fightingillini.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/frazier_chester00.html
Frazier got the most out of his talent. He always played hard and gave it his best. And his assist numbers (and the team's record) would probably have been better if Jamar Smith hadn't been such a dumbass while he was at Illinois.
He was 7th in the Big Ten in mpg. Was he supposed to average 2 and 2?
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I'm sure Tempo and Nichi will blame someone other than Smith for his own screwups.
It didn’t help that Chester had to double as the team doctor. EG: when he pronounced Brian Carlwell dead.
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because Illinois?
and we weren't always super unlucky, had a few diamonds in the rough like Mike Davis and Chester Frazier
Mike Davis and Giorgi were def diamonds.
Even guy like Andres Feliz.
Luther Head vastly outplayed his HS ranking into a 1st rd NBA draft pick.
Meacham/Rice also when they got here produced far more than what their HS ranking would suggest.
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Chester Frazier was the embodiment of our programs’ struggles for 15 years. Not a shining example of a diamond in the rough. He didn’t belong at this level. He probably didn’t belong at UW-Milwaukee.
ok Chester Frazier is a slightly crap example but he literally had no scholarship offers and somehow managed to start for a big ten team for 3 years
so depending on your definition of diamond in the rough... yeah
A few others that could be Diamonds in the rough
Trent Meacham
Warren Carter
Mike Davis
Rayvonte Rice
Maverick Morgan
I can't look anymore, what a shit show... honestly looking back at the late 2000's and 2010's... fuck we were terrible... but we had a ton of highly rated recruits that didn't amount to much, along with our lowly rated recruits
bad coaching is the #1 cause
I think we're getting better in this regard with more productive players the last few years
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I suppose I am.
Illinois high schoolers kept going on to excellent college careers, and we kept overlooking them.
We’ve given rides to “overlooked” big men like Mike Tisdale, Michael Finke, and Brandon Lieb.
How’s that worked out?
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We’ve given rides to “overlooked” big men like Mike Tisdale, Michael Finke, and Brandon Lieb.
How’s that worked out?
Jermaine Hamlin is another.
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Jermaine Hamlin is another.
Exactly. To suggest our recruiting stinks because we missed out on guys nobody else thought we’re High D1 players is stupid.
The only time where I’d want to recruit in-state below top 100 players is if the choice was those guys vs foreigners. I’d take in state and not take guys like Vesel, Bossman, or Giorgi tho Giorgi was obviously a huge win.
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ok Chester Frazier is a slightly crap example but he literally had no scholarship offers and somehow managed to start for a big ten team for 3 years
Yes, because the program took a horrible nosedive and didn’t have better options.
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Exactly. To suggest our recruiting stinks because we missed out on guys nobody else thought we’re High D1 players is stupid.
Well it is Tempo, so 🤷🏻♂️
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We’ve given rides to “overlooked” big men like Mike Tisdale, Michael Finke, and Brandon Lieb.
How’s that worked out?
Right, it’s called talent evaluation. We’ve been bad at it for a long time.
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Well it is Tempo, so 🤷🏻♂️
I guess I could focus on the guys who were never coming here. Like you are.
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Like Collins, Wright, DRose, Scheyer, and Brunson.
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I'm enjoying the current uptick in recruiting personally... dwelling on the past is just depressing
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Scheyer sure seemed like a huge waste of resources.
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Bruce Weber wasted a lot of time and energy chasing a tOSU lock
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Evan Turner was great player but I’m not sure how much better we’d have been with ET and without McCamey. They weren’t going to play together in college. Just like Dee and Shannon Brown weren’t either.
Given how important PG was, I think I’d have preferred McCamey so I don’t look at Turner as a huge miss.
Iguodala was a much bigger miss IMO.
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Scheyer sure seemed like a huge waste of resources.
Scheyer def made the right decision. The guy was a Duke fan his whole life, and now he’s going to be Duke Head Coach at age 35.
I think it’ll be very tough to recruit Illinois suburbs vs Duke with Scheyer there
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Iguodala was a much bigger miss IMO.
yeah Bill Self never recovered after the Sean Dockery & Iggy potential class
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yeah Bill Self never recovered after the Sean Dockery & Iggy potential class
I think Self thought Randle would replicate what Iggy brought due to similar size and athleticism so at the time maybe that’s why he didn’t prioritize him.
But the reason for me that Iggy was a big miss is that Arkansas and then Arizona both wanted a kid only 50 miles from Champaign, so if schools that good want a player so close to your campus you better get him yourself
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I'm enjoying the current uptick in recruiting personally... dwelling on the past is just depressing
Judge Judy posed the question. Yeah, I’m pretty well over it. If there’s one thing I’ve realized, even the last few days is I’m pretty much over tbings like Illini Basketball and the Bears. What I had considered my last two sports loves. I’m still “interested” but emotional investment is extremely low these days.
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[A few others that could be Diamonds in the rough
Trent Meacham
Warren Carter
Mike Davis
Rayvonte Rice
Maverick Morgan]
Good lord, is that a sad list. The reason Illinois Basketball fell off the map is we started confusing 3rd guys and end of the rotation guys for “good players.” None of these players star for a title contender save Rayvonte, who on a really good team would have been a 3rd or 4th guy.