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Poll

Illinois be ASU

ASU is an equal program to Illinois
11 (68.8%)
Illinois provides a competitive advantage
5 (31.3%)

Total Members Voted: 16

Voting closed: April 26, 2023, 11:18:32 AM

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Show of hands

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Reacher

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Re: Show of hands
« Reply #90 on: April 19, 2023, 02:48:16 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on April 19, 2023, 02:40:47 PM
Don’t you think it’s kind odd that for this entire discussion you’ve been arguing what you FEEL is true - Illinois produces more talent than Arizona, Hurley is comparable to Underwood - and I’ve been arguing what actually is true - their actual results, the actual state recruiting rankings?

Is there never a point where you look at it and think huh, maybe my hunch wasn’t right in this instance?

You’re oblivious to the fact that situation matters. Apparently you think it’s 100% about the coach. That couldn’t be more untrue.
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"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.
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spark mandrill

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Re: Show of hands
« Reply #91 on: April 19, 2023, 02:49:54 PM »
Quote from: Tempo34 on April 19, 2023, 02:45:08 PM
Right, but Illinois at least has a history of landing some of those players.

Yes.  Because we have hired better coaches.  We’ve hired guys like Henson and Kruger and Underwood that win games and take programs to the tournament consistently.  They’ve hired guys like Bobby Hurley and Herb Sendek that win fewer games and take programs to the tournament occasionally.

The difference in historical success isn’t because of the name on the front of the jersey.  It’s because of the guys we’ve had on the sidelines.  It’s not some inherent superiority.  We had a streak of hiring three great coaches in a row, and got great results.  When we hired two mediocre coaches in a row we got mediocre results, even though we were still Illinois Basketball.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2023, 02:51:37 PM by spark mandrill »
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Reacher

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Re: Show of hands
« Reply #92 on: April 19, 2023, 02:51:34 PM »
Historically, I feel confident that Illinois has produced more talent. Can’t speak for the last 5 years or so.

I also feel confident in my guess that over the last 30-40 years, Illinois vastly outnumbers ASU in top 100 recruits landed. And it’s not just dumb luck.
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"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.
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spark mandrill

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Re: Show of hands
« Reply #93 on: April 19, 2023, 02:53:02 PM »
Quote from: Tempo34 on April 19, 2023, 02:51:34 PM
Historically, I feel confident that Illinois has produced more talent. Can’t speak for the last 5 years or so.

I also feel confident in my guess that over the last 30-40 years, Illinois vastly outnumbers ASU in top 100 recruits landed. And it’s not just dumb luck.

No one has said it’s dumb luck.  It’s because we’ve hired better coaches.

Maybe Illinois has produced better recruits a couple decades ago.  That’s probably true.  It’s just not relevant to the discussion about Underwood and Hurley.  What is relevant is which state has produced more talent with those guys at their current schools, and the answer is Arizona by a sizable amount.

You’ve yet to produce a single piece of compelling evidence for the “Hurley is actually a comparable coach to Underwood but he doesn’t get the same results because of Illinois’ success from 1980-2005” take, so I’m gonna drop it now.

I’ll continue judging coaches by the results they get, and you can judge them by the results you guess they might have in a different situation, or how much talent you feel like their state probably produces.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2023, 02:54:50 PM by spark mandrill »
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Reacher

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Re: Show of hands
« Reply #94 on: April 19, 2023, 02:53:35 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on April 19, 2023, 02:49:54 PM
Yes.  Because we have hired better coaches.  We’ve hired guys like Henson and Kruger and Underwood that win games and take programs to the tournament consistently.  They’ve hired guys like Bobby Hurley and Herb Sendek that win fewer games and take programs to the tournament occasionally.

The difference in historical success isn’t because of the name on the front of the jersey.  It’s because of the guys we’ve had on the sidelines.  It’s not some inherent superiority.  We had a streak of hiring three great coaches in a row, and got great results.  When we hired two mediocre coaches in a row we got mediocre results, even though we were still Illinois Basketball.

Despite having some retards (sorry hate that word, but it feels right) for ADs. Why? Because Illinois IS and HAS BEEN a desirable job. For a long time. Until Mike Thomas fucked things up. This guy hired Groce and Beckman for christs sake.
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"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.
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Reacher

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Re: Show of hands
« Reply #95 on: April 19, 2023, 02:55:10 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on April 19, 2023, 02:53:02 PM
No one has said it’s dumb luck.  It’s because we’ve hired better coaches.

Maybe Illinois has produced better recruits a couple decades ago.  That’s probably true.  It’s just not relevant to the discussion about Underwood and Hurley.  What is relevant is which state has produced more talent with those guys at their current schools, and the answer is Arizona by a sizable amount.

Again. My only point is that Underwood likely wouldn’t be as “successful” at ASU as he’s been at Illinois. And there’s reasons for that. If you find that controversial, oh well.
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"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.
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spark mandrill

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Re: Show of hands
« Reply #96 on: April 19, 2023, 02:56:31 PM »
Yes, he hired mediocre coaches and got mediocre results.  When schools hire good coaches, they tend to get better results.  The results are dictated by the coach, not the success they had when you were like 10-25.

I guess I don’t understand why that’s surprising to you.  It seems pretty obvious.
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spark mandrill

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Re: Show of hands
« Reply #97 on: April 19, 2023, 02:57:58 PM »
Quote from: Tempo34 on April 19, 2023, 02:55:10 PM
Again. My only point is that Underwood likely wouldn’t be as “successful” at ASU as he’s been at Illinois. And there’s reasons for that. If you find that controversial, oh well.

We’ll never know.  What we do know is that Underwood’s been more successful at every stop thusfar than the coach you think is comparable to him.  That’s just an objective fact.  You can rationalize why that is however you’d like.
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Reacher

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Re: Show of hands
« Reply #98 on: April 19, 2023, 02:58:06 PM »
Coaching matters, obviously. Elite coaching matters even more. Infrastructure and fit also matter. It would take one hell of a coach to get ASU to a 1 seed, I can promise you that.
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"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.
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spark mandrill

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Re: Show of hands
« Reply #99 on: April 19, 2023, 02:59:19 PM »
I’m actually curious and drawing a blank.  Who was the last recruit Underwood got from Illinois?  I know we have Morez coming next year but I don’t think we’ve gotten any Illinois kids for a while.
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spark mandrill

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Re: Show of hands
« Reply #100 on: April 19, 2023, 03:00:44 PM »
Oh, Ty Rodgers I guess, moved to Illinois as a HS upperclassman I think.  Before that it was Adam Miller.
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Reacher

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Re: Show of hands
« Reply #101 on: April 19, 2023, 03:02:21 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on April 19, 2023, 02:57:58 PM
We’ll never know.  What we do know is that Underwood’s been more successful at every stop thusfar than the coach you think is comparable to him.  That’s just an objective fact.  You can rationalize why that is however you’d like.

Ok, I will rationalize a bit. Hurley inherited a Buffalo team that went 14-20 the year before he started and finished in 1st his two years there.

Underwood inherited a program that went 26-3 and ultimately had his wins vacated. How’s that for rationalizing?
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"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.
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spark mandrill

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Re: Show of hands
« Reply #102 on: April 19, 2023, 03:03:09 PM »
Quote from: Tempo34 on April 19, 2023, 02:58:06 PM
Coaching matters, obviously. Elite coaching matters even more. Infrastructure and fit also matter. It would take one hell of a coach to get ASU to a 1 seed, I can promise you that.

Yes, the good coaches tend to win more games and make the tournament consistently for sure.  And the mediocre coaches tend to win fewer games and make the tournament less.

I don’t see how you think this supports your point though.  It does not.
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spark mandrill

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Re: Show of hands
« Reply #103 on: April 19, 2023, 03:03:31 PM »
Quote from: Tempo34 on April 19, 2023, 03:02:21 PM
Ok, I will rationalize a bit. Hurley inherited a Buffalo team that went 14-20 the year before he started and finished in 1st his two years there.

Underwood inherited a program that went 26-3 and ultimately had his wins vacated. How’s that for rationalizing?

Very on brand.
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Reacher

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Re: Show of hands
« Reply #104 on: April 19, 2023, 03:04:12 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on April 19, 2023, 02:59:19 PM
I’m actually curious and drawing a blank.  Who was the last recruit Underwood got from Illinois?  I know we have Morez coming next year but I don’t think we’ve gotten any Illinois kids for a while.

The landscape of recruiting has changed drastically the last few years. With the portal and more euros. Good homegrown talent is nice to have, but isn’t as vital as it was even when Underwood started here.
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"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.
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