* *

User

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

April 20, 2026, 08:42:29 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Recent

Stats

Members
  • Total Members: 142
  • Latest: Hal9000
Stats
  • Total Posts: 177949
  • Total Topics: 1488
  • Online Today: 171
  • Online Ever: 4316
  • (October 16, 2025, 04:40:42 PM)
Users Online
Users: 2
Guests: 74
Total: 76

« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 53 54 [55] 56 57 ... 631   Go Down

WTF is wrong with the left?

  • 9463 Replies
  • 966248 Views

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

*

illiniray

  • *****
  • 9204
  • +616/-2091
    • View Profile
Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #810 on: March 18, 2021, 01:20:06 PM »
Quote from: illinicalvin on March 18, 2021, 12:10:14 AM
The verbatim statement you posted from the police evidences indisputable misogyny and probable anti-Asian animus, or at least fetishization and objectification, which is a form of racism. How are you not seeing this?

That is an interesting take. If you replaced indisputable and probable with plausible and possible, and is with can be; then I might be inclined to agree.

At this point nothing in the statement from police is clear evidence of anything. I suppose one could infer some of that about objectification of women.

Of course, the police are dealing with the GA hate crimes statute. That is the context. They have not ruled it out. They need evidence, not inference.

The fact that an aggressor and victim are of different races or other protected classes, however, should not mean the hate crimes law automatically applies.
https://www.natlawreview.com/article/georgia-s-new-hate-crimes-legislation
Logged
“Taking a trip? Where to?”  -“Wherever I end up, I guess. -“Man, I wish I was you." -Well, hang in there.”
*

fucking

  • *****
  • 3174
  • +223/-1146
  • Who Doesn't?
    • View Profile
Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #811 on: March 18, 2021, 01:41:19 PM »
Quote from: illiniray on March 18, 2021, 01:20:06 PM
Of course, the police are dealing with the GA hate crimes statute. That is the context. They have not ruled it out. They need evidence, not inference.
In general, I wish mens rea were removed from the practice of criminal law.
Logged
*

illiniray

  • *****
  • 9204
  • +616/-2091
    • View Profile
Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #812 on: March 18, 2021, 02:04:24 PM »
Quote from: murphstahoe on March 18, 2021, 12:44:43 PM
The bigger thing IlliniRay misses on this privilege thing - he keeps focusing on law enforcement.

But if you are Asian American, it's not just law enforcement, and how they treat a guy who shoots up a bunch of Asian massage parlors. It's that there are a lot of situations that might be beneficial to a person that they just avoid completely because of fear of racism.

Don't know why I'm even bothering with that crap take

It is actually ironic that you would lecture me about Asian Americans. 

We discussed law enforcement in some detail because you pursued that angle.

Fine. Maybe it is semantics. Not syntax. It goes to the meaning of words. The fact that words are supposed to mean things. Language abuse by the left annoys me. As does the hysterical reaction to anyone who fares question the terminology.

It's like referring to mixed economies as socialism (the right does that too). Or male chauvinism as misogyny. Now racial prejudice had been redubbed as white privilege.

Every explanation of white privilege I can find discusses the discriminstion nonwhite minorities must  deal with in daily life. Absence of this unfair adversity is defined as an unearned privilege.

One point is that racial minorities are not necessarily automatically afforded civil rights. Too often, they must earn them Whites generally don't get this, because most people can't relate beyond their own limited experience.

So this insensitivity to the minority experience is dubbed white privilege. My objection, in part, is the terminology is  semantically wrong. That should be enough. Furthermore, it alienates white people who might otherwise be sympathetic. Finally, it is also a dangerous concept because it implies civil rights should be earned.

Anyway, we seem to be talking about a lack of white empathy or sensitivity for the real pain and struggles of racial minorities, rooted in a lack of shared experience. I am thinking perhaps 'white arrogance' might be better?
« Last Edit: March 18, 2021, 02:07:26 PM by illiniray »
Logged
“Taking a trip? Where to?”  -“Wherever I end up, I guess. -“Man, I wish I was you." -Well, hang in there.”
*

illinicalvin

  • *****
  • 1488
  • +517/-43
    • View Profile
Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #813 on: March 18, 2021, 03:48:29 PM »
Quote from: illiniray on March 18, 2021, 01:20:06 PM
At this point nothing in the statement from police is clear evidence of anything. I suppose one could infer some of that about objectification of women.

Of course, the police are dealing with the GA hate crimes statute. That is the context. They have not ruled it out. They need evidence, not inference.
You're mixing legal standards and moral standards, picking whichever suits your point at the time.

 "Clear evidence" isn't a legal standard. Legally, the confession is relevant evidence, as is the cop's anti-Asian bias. I'm not a Georgia prosecutor so I don't know what's needed to show intent/purpose. I do know it's almost impossible to fuck up with a grand jury unless you want to and there's people doing life in Georgia on weaker proof.

Morally, I think it's indisputable that he's a misogynist. Ffs, he blamed female sex workers for his sex problems. That's per se misogyny. I think it's more likely than not (preponderance, if you want a level of proof) that he's got issues with East Asians that would qualify as racism to reasonable people.

In either event, you can draw rational inferences from known facts and statements. You can do it in murder trials or in just dealing with everyday life.
Logged
*

illinicalvin

  • *****
  • 1488
  • +517/-43
    • View Profile
Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #814 on: March 18, 2021, 03:56:02 PM »
Quote from: illiniray on March 18, 2021, 02:04:24 PM
Furthermore, it alienates white people who might otherwise be sympathetic.
Yeah, that's bullshit.

If your sympathy for police abuse victims or people being barred from voting depends on them using the right sociological terminology, you're not really sympathetic to anything.

It's particularly weird when I see self-described libertarians doing this dance. "I hate the state unless it's abusing people who've chosen to use words I don't like!"
Logged
*

illiniray

  • *****
  • 9204
  • +616/-2091
    • View Profile
Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #815 on: March 18, 2021, 05:02:21 PM »
Quote from: illinicalvin on March 18, 2021, 03:56:02 PM
Yeah, that's bullshit.

If your sympathy for police abuse victims or people being barred from voting depends on them using the right sociological terminology, you're not really sympathetic to anything.

It's particularly weird when I see self-described libertarians doing this dance. "I hate the state unless it's abusing people who've chosen to use words I don't like!"

Your response could not have missed the point more if you tried. I am talking about people who might be inclined to be sympathetic. They are not turned off by the wrong word. They are put off  because they are accused of privilege and they just don't feel particularly privileged.

Granted, many on the left don't  care if they alienate or trigger moderate whites. That much is obvious.

I outlined all of my own objections to the term. They still stand. Systemic racism is real. White apathy toward systemic racism is real. White privilege is a nonsensical and harmful concept.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2021, 05:06:57 PM by illiniray »
Logged
“Taking a trip? Where to?”  -“Wherever I end up, I guess. -“Man, I wish I was you." -Well, hang in there.”
*

illiniray

  • *****
  • 9204
  • +616/-2091
    • View Profile
Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #816 on: March 18, 2021, 05:12:45 PM »
Quote from: illinicalvin on March 18, 2021, 03:48:29 PM
[I am] mixing legal standards and moral standards, picking whichever suits [my] point ...

fify
Logged
“Taking a trip? Where to?”  -“Wherever I end up, I guess. -“Man, I wish I was you." -Well, hang in there.”
*

murphstahoe

  • *****
  • 8060
  • +1969/-142
    • View Profile
Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #817 on: March 18, 2021, 05:23:47 PM »
Quote from: illiniray on March 18, 2021, 05:02:21 PM
Your response could not have missed the point more if you tried. I am talking about people who might be inclined to be sympathetic. They are not turned off by the wrong word. They are put off  because they are accused of privilege and they just don't feel particularly privileged.

Granted, many on the left don't  care if they alienate or trigger moderate whites. That much is obvious.

I outlined all of my own objections to the term. They still stand. Systemic racism is real. White apathy toward systemic racism is real. White privilege is a nonsensical and harmful concept.

This is bullshit. I'm getting pretty damn tired of the theory that we just need to use better style in order to really teach a bunch of racists that they are racist.

I understand the concept of having to tailor things to your audience to get what you want. There was a CNN spot about vaccination where a guy went to Oklahoma, and basically everyone just said "I'm not gonna take the vaccine because I don't trust the vaccine or I don't trust the Government or I got a flu shot and I got the flu anyway" - all sorts of reasons that aren't based on developed thinking, they are just pulled from a hat. Really? A bunch of white guys in Oklahoma don't trust the Government? What the hell does their lasseiz-faire government every do to them in the middle of nowhere Oklahoma?

So some Doctor from OKC gets on and basically explains that it's his job to try to get vaccination levels up, and he has to be very nuanced and use education to get people to adjust their conclusions. Messages from the Government or the Media aren't trusted by these groups, but they trust their doctors, so they have to use the health providers as the messaging service to do education and built trust.

Now - The drum on racism has been beating for multiple decades. If they haven't figured it out by now - it just might be possible that they aren't gonna figure that one out. And them still being racist doesn't cause a global pandemic. So it's fine just to remove racists from the police force, and use the levers of government to address the systemic bias.
Logged
*

ThePAMan

  • *****
  • 31406
  • +604/-2429
  • Because "PussyMan" and "PenisMan" were trademarked
    • View Profile
Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #818 on: March 18, 2021, 06:00:25 PM »
https://www.thedailybeast.com/teen-vogues-new-eic-alexi-mccammond-out-after-backlash-over-old-racist-tweets

Just days before she was set to begin the job, Teen Vogue’s new editor-in-chief is out at the publication following internal uproar over her decade-old tweets about Asians.

People familiar with the situation told The Daily Beast that Alexi McCammond, a former Axios political reporter who was hired by Condé Nast earlier this month to lead Teen Vogue, will no longer join the fashion and lifestyle publication.

***

McCammond was heralded as a rising political star among the D.C. press corps for her headline-grabbing stories about the Trump White House and the 2020 presidential campaign, which garnered her an award from the National Association of Black Journalists in 2019 and frequent appearances as a contributor on MSNBC.

***

“Now googling how to not wake up with swollen, asian eyes…” McCammond, who is Black, wrote in one of the tweets, posted when she was in college. “Give me a 2/10 on my chem problem, cross out all of my work and don’t explain what i did wrong...thanks a lot stupid asian T.A. you’re great,” read another.
Logged
Mark Carman: "The Whitlock!...Caleb Williams failed Wayne Whitlock." Been told I need to take my dick out my mouth so maybe I "wont [sic] sound like such a fucking faggot all the time[.]"

Tempo: "PAMan is a pot stirrer and agent provocateur"
*

illiniray

  • *****
  • 9204
  • +616/-2091
    • View Profile
Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #819 on: March 18, 2021, 06:09:08 PM »
A black person can be racist now? Who knew?
Logged
“Taking a trip? Where to?”  -“Wherever I end up, I guess. -“Man, I wish I was you." -Well, hang in there.”
*

illiniray

  • *****
  • 9204
  • +616/-2091
    • View Profile
Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #820 on: March 18, 2021, 06:47:32 PM »
Quote from: murphstahoe on March 18, 2021, 05:23:47 PM
This is bullshit. I'm getting pretty damn tired of the theory that we just need to use better style in order to really teach a bunch of racists that they are racist.

I understand the concept of having to tailor things to your audience to get what you want. There was a CNN spot about vaccination where a guy went to Oklahoma, and basically everyone just said "I'm not gonna take the vaccine because I don't trust the vaccine or I don't trust the Government or I got a flu shot and I got the flu anyway" - all sorts of reasons that aren't based on developed thinking, they are just pulled from a hat. Really? A bunch of white guys in Oklahoma don't trust the Government? What the hell does their lasseiz-faire government every do to them in the middle of nowhere Oklahoma?

So some Doctor from OKC gets on and basically explains that it's his job to try to get vaccination levels up, and he has to be very nuanced and use education to get people to adjust their conclusions. Messages from the Government or the Media aren't trusted by these groups, but they trust their doctors, so they have to use the health providers as the messaging service to do education and built trust.

Now - The drum on racism has been beating for multiple decades. If they haven't figured it out by now - it just might be possible that they aren't gonna figure that one out. And them still being racist doesn't cause a global pandemic. So it's fine just to remove racists from the police force, and use the levers of government to address the systemic bias.

I was talking about people who are not really racist, but we might disagree on who is and is not. Also, I am not talking about tailoring the message. The concept of white privilege is flawed on multiple levels. That it is laughable to many just compounds the problem. Call it white apathy, arrogance, indifference, ignorance, insensitivity ...

I have friends who have no problem registering to vote, obtaining a photo ID,  and voting in person on election day. They support voter ID. They oppose same day registration, ballot collection, early voting, and mail in voting. They think it's the state that is at fault for sending them ballot requests for adult  kids that moved out years ago.  ::)

They don't buy into charges about voter suppression. Try telling them that is their white privilege showing .
Logged
“Taking a trip? Where to?”  -“Wherever I end up, I guess. -“Man, I wish I was you." -Well, hang in there.”
*

murphstahoe

  • *****
  • 8060
  • +1969/-142
    • View Profile
Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #821 on: March 18, 2021, 10:31:33 PM »
Quote from: illiniray on March 18, 2021, 06:47:32 PM
I was talking about people who are not really racist, but we might disagree on who is and is not. Also, I am not talking about tailoring the message. The concept of white privilege is flawed on multiple levels. That it is laughable to many just compounds the problem. Call it white apathy, arrogance, indifference, ignorance, insensitivity ...

I have friends who have no problem registering to vote, obtaining a photo ID,  and voting in person on election day. They support voter ID. They oppose same day registration, ballot collection, early voting, and mail in voting. They think it's the state that is at fault for sending them ballot requests for adult  kids that moved out years ago.  ::)

They don't buy into charges about voter suppression. Try telling them that is their white privilege showing .

So they get ballot requests for adult kids that moved out years ago. An extraordinarily simple path for them to do voter fraud. But they aren't doing voter fraud, presumably. But they oppose mail in voting because it will be rife with fraud - despite the fact that they themselves have been gift wrapped an easy way to do voter fraud but don't.

Because voter fraud is something that is done by "those people" - and we know what we mean by "those people". But nah, they ain't really racist.
Logged
*

murphstahoe

  • *****
  • 8060
  • +1969/-142
    • View Profile
Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #822 on: March 18, 2021, 10:38:33 PM »
Quote from: illiniray on March 18, 2021, 06:47:32 PM

I have friends who have no problem registering to vote, obtaining a photo ID,  and voting in person on election day. They support voter ID. They oppose same day registration, ballot collection, early voting, and mail in voting. They think it's the state that is at fault for sending them ballot requests for adult  kids that moved out years ago.  ::)

They don't buy into charges about voter suppression. Try telling them that is their white privilege showing .

Here's one for you then. We've talked about when people have their rights taken away, that's not "white privilege", that's systemic bias.

You've posted a different example. Your friend have no problem voting in person on election day. No sweat. So if it's so damn easy to just go vote on election day, why is Abrams doing all this work trying to get early voting and mail in voting and doing registration drives in places like Fulton County?

It's not because they don't have places to vote in Fulton County. They have *fewer places per capita* to vote in Fulton County. That is why people - in largely African American Fulton County - have trouble voting in person on election day. Because there are long lines that make it troublesome. And this isn't because Fulton County is a bunch of dipshits who can't figure out how to put in polling places, it's because the GOP runs the show in Georgia, prefers for them to not vote because it favors the GOP, so they put in arcane rules about number of polling places per *county* instead of per *capita*.

The rights of those people in Fulton County have not been stripped. They *can* vote on election day. It's just systemically harder for them to vote on election day. When you cross this generic level of difficulty across all Americans, you will see that the added systemic friction to voting is lower for white people than black people. That's an example of privilege that presumably meets your definition.
Logged
*

illiniray

  • *****
  • 9204
  • +616/-2091
    • View Profile
Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #823 on: March 19, 2021, 12:05:31 AM »
Quote from: murphstahoe on March 18, 2021, 10:31:33 PM
So they get ballot requests for adult kids that moved out years ago. An extraordinarily simple path for them to do voter fraud. But they aren't doing voter fraud, presumably. But they oppose mail in voting because it will be rife with fraud - despite the fact that they themselves have been gift wrapped an easy way to do voter fraud but don't.

Because voter fraud is something that is done by "those people" - and we know what we mean by "those people". But nah, they ain't really racist.

They got those ballot requests -- and registration cards very year -- for children that moved away because the kids never cancelled their registration. If they moved out of state; Illinois would not catch a duplicate registration. This is very common and only illegal if they try to vote in both states.

The irony is they blame the state for their own mistake.
Logged
“Taking a trip? Where to?”  -“Wherever I end up, I guess. -“Man, I wish I was you." -Well, hang in there.”
*

illiniray

  • *****
  • 9204
  • +616/-2091
    • View Profile
Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #824 on: March 19, 2021, 12:18:56 AM »
Quote from: murphstahoe on March 18, 2021, 10:38:33 PM
Here's one for you then. We've talked about when people have their rights taken away, that's not "white privilege", that's systemic bias.

You've posted a different example. Your friend have no problem voting in person on election day. No sweat. So if it's so damn easy to just go vote on election day, why is Abrams doing allm this work trying to get early voting and mail in voting and doing registration drives in places like Fulton County?

It's not because they don't have places to vote in Fulton County. They have *fewer places per capita* to vote in Fulton County. That is why people - in largely African American Fulton County - have trouble voting in person on election day. Because there are long lines that make it troublesome. And this isn't because Fulton County is a bunch of dipshits who can't figure out how to put in polling places, it's because the GOP runs the show in Georgia, prefers for them to not vote because it favors the GOP, so they put in arcane rules about number of polling places per *county* instead of per *capita*.

The rights of those people in Fulton County have not been stripped. They *can* vote on election day. It's just systemically harder for them to vote on election day. When you cross this generic level of difficulty across all Americans, you will see that the added systemic friction to voting is lower for white people than black people. That's an example of privilege that presumably meets your definition.

Sorry. Somehow I am not seeing a lack of voter suppression as a privilege.

Voter suppression  is  just a sneaky, back door denial of voting rights. 

Many, if not most, whites do not get it because, as I noted, it is outside their experience. They do not see the bully as a bully because he has always been kind to them.

The same friends are more concerned with ballot security than  voter suppression because after all,  the state sent them that ballot request for the son in California. And what about all that  ballot harvesting!  :P
« Last Edit: March 19, 2021, 12:21:21 AM by illiniray »
Logged
“Taking a trip? Where to?”  -“Wherever I end up, I guess. -“Man, I wish I was you." -Well, hang in there.”
Pages: 1 ... 53 54 [55] 56 57 ... 631   Go Up
« previous next »