WTF is wrong with the left?

spark mandrill

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?

« Reply #3480 on: June 13, 2023, 03:34:12 PM »

Quote from: ThePAMan on June 13, 2023, 03:25:56 PM

Actually not a Boomer. But I know how Spark and you love to needlessly grandstand and virtue signal.

Pointing out that shit like 97 said is stupid is not virtue signalling, and frankly if more people spoke out about it instead of lecturing the people speaking out about it it'd be far less common. I'd think that'd be a common goal between us, but instead you barely acknowledge it and move right on to mocking the people speaking out against it. Which is a great strategy, assuming your goal is to ensure shit like that is more and more commonplace and socially acceptable in America.

But STILL, up until right now, you're WAY more concerned with me than that horrible thing he said. And I have only posted here once or twice in the last like 5 or 6 days.

This is why we are where we are. When a conservative says something like "black people owe white people reparations for being their slaves", your reaction is to lecture the liberals who didn't say it.

« Last Edit: June 13, 2023, 03:37:02 PM by spark mandrill »

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ThePAMan

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?

« Reply #3481 on: June 13, 2023, 03:51:01 PM »

Quote from: spark mandrill on June 13, 2023, 03:34:12 PM

[1] Pointing out that shit like 97 said is stupid is not virtue signalling, [2] and frankly if more people spoke out about it instead of lecturing the people speaking out about it it'd be far less common.

But STILL, up until right now, you're WAY more concerned with me than that horrible thing he said. And I have only posted here once or twice in the last like 5 or 6 days.

This is why we are where we are.

[1] I agree. But that was not what I was referring to here. My comment was general in nature due to our prior conversation.

[2]While I did post that I was tepid in anticipating QAnon97's "rationale" behind his comment (and compared it to looking at a fatal car wreck), I have an inkling (which may be completely wrong) that 97 just posts stuff to troll (maybe even just to troll Tempo and you). I actually do not feel the need to "call out" every ridiculous, way over-the-top, stupid comment by 97, Golf, Dom, or [Insert Poster Name] here. I am betting if you did not twist yourself into hysterics in this manner, 97, and others, would get bored with it.

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Tempo: "PAMan is a pot stirrer and agent provocateur"

spark mandrill

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?

« Reply #3482 on: June 13, 2023, 04:02:53 PM »

Yes, we know that you don't call out any of the abhorrent shit those guys constantly say.

That's the point.

What you DO do, though, is try to lecture the people who do call out the abhorrent shit as if they are the problem.

It's backwards, and exclusively benefits the people who would say some shit like that. If that's the goal, well then have at it. I suspect you would say your goal is the opposite of that, but your behavior ONLY benefits those people. No one else.

At some point, after years of piling up abhorrent comment after abhorrent comment, "I'm just trolling libz you idiot!" should ring false to reasonable people. Trolling is not a good excuse to defend saying that kind of shit, at all, unless the goal is to make that kind of thing more socially acceptable to say.

This is the part where you say some stupid hand wavey shit to avoid looking in the mirror like "message boards are serious business!" instead of looking around you and seeing, wait a second, this sort of societal breakdown IS serious business, and it isn't just happening on illiniHQ2.com but in Congress, in the White House, all over America. They're gonna troll this country straight into full blown fascism, and you've spent the whole time lecturing the OTHER people.

« Last Edit: June 13, 2023, 04:06:27 PM by spark mandrill »

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ThePAMan

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?

« Reply #3483 on: June 13, 2023, 04:24:42 PM »

Quote from: spark mandrill on June 13, 2023, 04:02:53 PM

Yes, we know that you don't call out any of the abhorrent shit those guys constantly say.

That's the point.

What you DO do, though, is try to lecture the people who do call out the abhorrent shit as if they are the problem.

It's backwards, and exclusively benefits the people who would say some shit like that. If that's the goal, well then have at it. I suspect you would say your goal is the opposite of that, but your behavior ONLY benefits those people. No one else.

At some point, after years of piling up abhorrent comment after abhorrent comment, "I'm just trolling libz you idiot!" should ring false to reasonable people. Trolling is not a good excuse to defend saying that kind of shit, at all, unless the goal is to make that kind of thing more socially acceptable to say.

This is the part where you say some stupid hand wavey shit to avoid looking in the mirror like "message boards are serious business!" instead of looking around you and seeing, wait a second, this sort of societal breakdown IS serious business, and it isn't just happening on illiniHQ2.com but in Congress, in the White House, all over America. They're gonna troll this country straight into full blown fascism, and you've spent the whole time lecturing the OTHER people.

No, it is not backwards. Our discussion was about HOW TO WIN PEOPLE OVER. The upcoming election is very important. Which is why WINNING IT is important. You say you worry about the country going straight into full blown fascism, yet you would rather call people stupid, bigots, and "undesirables" instead of ACTUALLY FUCKING WINNING. I'd say "good luck with that," except the rest of us have to clean up the mess because of virtue signalers like you.

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Mark Carman: "The Whitlock!...Caleb Williams failed Wayne Whitlock." Been told I need to take my dick out my mouth so maybe I "wont [sic] sound like such a fucking faggot all the time[.]"

Tempo: "PAMan is a pot stirrer and agent provocateur"

spark mandrill

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?

« Reply #3484 on: June 13, 2023, 04:32:45 PM »

And yet despite how obvious it is to you that the way to "win over" bigots is to not call out their bigotry, you have yet to provide a single example of a civil rights fight anywhere won that way. Not one, which makes sense - it's never happened.

ILLove is never going to have his mind changed by me. Ever. Not gonna happen. He is fully indoctrinated, no liberal is going to get through no matter what they say.

Other people who DON'T say openly bigoted shit all day on a message board can be won over, though, and open bigotry becoming socially unacceptable is a good way to win those people. Catering to and protecting the feelings of open bigots while trying to lecture those calling the bigotry out is a good way to show them that the bigotry is totally acceptable - what's unacceptable is acknowledging it.

Do you think the civil rights movement in the 60's was won by turning the people who said the same shit those folks are saying now into accepting people? It wasn't. It was won by calling those people out and showing the other folks how obviously wrong that behavior is.

To call "lecturing the people who would call out bigotry instead of those who would engage in it" "cleaning up the mess after virtue signallers" tells me everything I need to know about you. I know you won't self reflect in this way, but surely if you did you'd see that catering to the bigots and calling out the non-bigots only benefits one group of people. If you're not supportive of open bigotry being more and more socially acceptable in this country, then it isn't you.

This election IS important, and if the people who don't want the fascists to win spend all their time calling out the people who call out the bigotry they're employing as rhetoric then they are nearly assured victory. If that's the goal - to teach people saying shit like that is totally fine, the real issue are the folks who call a spade a spade - then your strategy makes perfect sense.

« Last Edit: June 13, 2023, 04:36:21 PM by spark mandrill »

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ThePAMan

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?

« Reply #3485 on: June 13, 2023, 04:45:49 PM »

Quote from: spark mandrill on June 13, 2023, 04:32:45 PM

And yet despite how obvious it is to you that the way to "win over" bigots is to not call out their bigotry, you have yet to provide a single example of a civil rights fight anywhere won that way. Not one, which makes sense - it's never happened.

ILLove is never going to have his mind changed by me. Ever. Not gonna happen. He is fully indoctrinated, no liberal is going to get through no matter what they say.

Other people who DON'T say openly bigoted shit all day on a message board can be won over, though, and open bigotry becoming socially unacceptable is a good way to win those people. Catering to and protecting the feelings of open bigots while trying to lecture those calling the bigotry out is a good way to show them that the bigotry is totally acceptable - what's unacceptable is acknowledging it.

Do you think the civil rights movement in the 60's was won by turning the people who said the same shit those folks are saying now into accepting people? It wasn't. It was won by calling those people out and showing the other folks how obviously wrong that behavior is.

To call "lecturing the people who would call out bigotry instead of those who would engage in it" "cleaning up the mess after virtue signallers" tells me everything I need to know about you. I know you won't self reflect in this way, but surely if you did you'd see that catering to the bigots and calling out the non-bigots only benefits one group of people. If you're not supportive of open bigotry being more and more socially acceptable in this country, then it isn't you.

This election IS important, and if the people who don't want the fascists to win spend all their time calling out the people who call out the bigotry they're employing as rhetoric then they are nearly assured victory. If that's the goal - to teach people saying shit like that is totally fine, the real issue are the folks who call a spade a spade - then your strategy makes perfect sense.

Great. Another election going to be lost by the "Bernie Bros." Can't wait. Going to be another great 4 years.

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Mark Carman: "The Whitlock!...Caleb Williams failed Wayne Whitlock." Been told I need to take my dick out my mouth so maybe I "wont [sic] sound like such a fucking faggot all the time[.]"

Tempo: "PAMan is a pot stirrer and agent provocateur"

spark mandrill

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?

« Reply #3486 on: June 13, 2023, 04:48:32 PM »

I love that you think I'm a "Bernie bro".

I just believe that being a bigot is worse than calling out bigotry. That if we're going to spend time arguing with people, we should probably be arguing with the people who say shit like "if I see a trans woman go into the bathroom after my kid I'm going to assault them" rather than the people who say "that's fucked up and bigoted".

MLK made it pretty clear what he thought about the folks who kept saying he was going too far, being too in people's face in calling out the racism in America. I don't disagree with him, really.

« Last Edit: June 13, 2023, 04:55:43 PM by spark mandrill »

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ThePAMan

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?

« Reply #3487 on: June 13, 2023, 05:00:39 PM »

Quote from: spark mandrill on June 13, 2023, 04:48:32 PM

I love that you think I'm a "Bernie bro".

I just believe that being a bigot is worse than calling out bigotry.

MLK made it pretty clear what he thought about the folks who kept saying he was going too far, being too in people's face in calling out the racism in America. I don't disagree with him, really.

Tempo is the self-proclaimed Bernie Bro. here. Akin to the Bernie Bros. in 2016, you and your ilk are going to fuck it up for the rest of us this time around.

Love the strawman argument though. You still refuse to comprehend the argument from the other day. As I said, Tempo and you should be roommates. Two peas in a pod. The best MLK speech was when he called people "stupid." Ranked right up there with Hilary's Undesirables speech.

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Mark Carman: "The Whitlock!...Caleb Williams failed Wayne Whitlock." Been told I need to take my dick out my mouth so maybe I "wont [sic] sound like such a fucking faggot all the time[.]"

Tempo: "PAMan is a pot stirrer and agent provocateur"

spark mandrill

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?

« Reply #3488 on: June 13, 2023, 05:05:23 PM »

I get your argument entirely.

Given the complete vacuum of evidence from all of world history of your strategy working - and the numerous times the people who led the civil rights movements that did work spoke out against it specifically - I tend to think it's probably the wrong strategy.

It's certainly a good way to make saying that kind of shit more socially acceptable though. I can say that shit and not only do very few people even call me out for it, but the few who do are quickly shouted down by people who agree with the goals they seek, but can't agree with their 'direct actions' of calling it out.

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ThePAMan

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?

« Reply #3489 on: June 13, 2023, 05:19:19 PM »

Quote from: spark mandrill on June 13, 2023, 05:05:23 PM

I get your argument entirely.

Given the complete vacuum of evidence from all of world history of your strategy working - and the numerous times the people who led the civil rights movements that did work spoke out against it specifically - I tend to think it's probably the wrong strategy.

It's certainly a good way to make saying that kind of shit more socially acceptable though. I can say that shit and not only do very few people even call me out for it, but the few who do are quickly shouted down by people who agree with the goals they seek, but can't agree with their 'direct actions' of calling it out.

Actually, it is completely obvious you don't. That is not "direct action." What you do is name calling. Let me know where Dr. King or Gandhi said "[Insert name here] is stupid" in a speech like you do here.

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Mark Carman: "The Whitlock!...Caleb Williams failed Wayne Whitlock." Been told I need to take my dick out my mouth so maybe I "wont [sic] sound like such a fucking faggot all the time[.]"

Tempo: "PAMan is a pot stirrer and agent provocateur"

spark mandrill

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?

« Reply #3490 on: June 13, 2023, 05:28:20 PM »

To be clear - I think the person in question is stupid, but that's totally separate from his political views for the most part. This conversation started about the word 'bigot'.

The post today was stupid though, no?

You're the one that turned this into a huge thing about how calling shit like "black people owe white people reparations" or "i'll assault a trans person for using the restroom" stupid and bigoted is going to lose the election. I was content calling a spade a spade on an internet message board.

I do think the amount of time you've spent arguing with me about it vs. the amount of time you spend actually calling out when people here say abhorrent shit says a lot about your priorities that I just disagree with.

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ThePAMan

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?

« Reply #3491 on: June 13, 2023, 05:40:42 PM »

Quote from: spark mandrill on June 13, 2023, 05:28:20 PM

To be clear - I think the person in question is stupid, but that's totally separate from his political views for the most part. This conversation started about the word 'bigot'.

The post today was stupid though, no?

You're the one that turned this into a huge thing about how calling shit like "black people owe white people reparations" or "i'll assault a trans person for using the restroom" stupid and bigoted is going to lose the election. I was content calling a spade a spade on an internet message board.

I do think the amount of time you've spent arguing with me about it vs. the amount of time you spend actually calling out when people here say abhorrent shit says a lot about your priorities that I just disagree with.

We know you think people here are stupid. You have made that perfectly clear.

There is a reason I made up the QAnon97 name for him.

You turned the reparations discussion into that, not me. I will agree that I disagreed with your tactics viz a viz a JudgeJudy.

I do not think it says much about anything other than you do not like being called out and I do not mind going at it with you.

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Mark Carman: "The Whitlock!...Caleb Williams failed Wayne Whitlock." Been told I need to take my dick out my mouth so maybe I "wont [sic] sound like such a fucking faggot all the time[.]"

Tempo: "PAMan is a pot stirrer and agent provocateur"

illiniray

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?

« Reply #3492 on: June 13, 2023, 05:43:53 PM »

Quote from: ThePAMan on June 13, 2023, 03:24:33 PM

A lot of lives, and money, was spent to free the slaves, no? Just inquiring if you think those "costs" should be factored in at all.

If anything, you charge the slave states. Sort of like requiring a criminal to make restitution. I don't think you want reparations to be excessively punitive though. That doesn't end well. The idea is to compensate the victims and help them recover. That helps everyone.

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spark mandrill

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?

« Reply #3493 on: June 13, 2023, 06:03:46 PM »

Quote from: ThePAMan on June 13, 2023, 05:40:42 PM

We know you think people here are stupid. You have made that perfectly clear.

There is a reason I made up the QAnon97 name for him.

You turned the reparations discussion into that, not me. I will agree that I disagreed with your tactics viz a viz a JudgeJudy.

I do not think it says much about anything other than you do not like being called out and I do not mind going at it with you.

I'm perfectly fine being called out when I deserve it, and sometimes I do.

I'm not fine being called out for "calling out bigotry", nor IMO should anyone be unless they want that to be a thing that's reasonable to call out.

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spark mandrill

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?

« Reply #3494 on: June 13, 2023, 06:06:48 PM »

How about this, I'll try to refrain from using the word 'stupid' from now on. That's probably a fair criticism.

But I'd sure like to see you try to call out when someone here says something openly bigoted with the same vigor you call me out. It happens here like, quite a lot.

« Last Edit: June 13, 2023, 06:09:41 PM by spark mandrill »

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