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Let's talk about something we all can agree on...

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illiniray

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Re: Let's talk about something we all can agree on...
« Reply #1200 on: December 10, 2023, 12:37:20 PM »
……
“Does calling for the genocide of Jews violate Harvard’s rules on bullying and harassment?” she demanded of Claudine Gay, the new president of Harvard University.

“It can be, depending on the context,” Dr. Gay responded.

“What’s the context?” Ms. Stefanik shot back.

“Targeted at an individual,” Dr. Gay said.

“It’s targeted at Jewish students, Jewish individuals,” Ms. Stefanik said.
.......

Calling for the genocide of any group is despicable. I am not sure if it's free speech, but it is not harassment unless it names individuals. Stefanik is just wrong. If some idiot calls for the genocide of old white guys; I can't claim he is bullying and harassing me.

If he singles out Illiniray nichi, that is another bucket of fish.

Maybe calling for genocide should still be prohibited as an incitement to violence? What else?

Half the shit posted here?
« Last Edit: December 10, 2023, 12:40:43 PM by illiniray »
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ThePAMan

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Re: Let's talk about something we all can agree on...
« Reply #1201 on: December 10, 2023, 12:56:02 PM »
Quote from: illiniray on December 10, 2023, 12:37:20 PM
……
“Does calling for the genocide of Jews violate Harvard’s rules on bullying and harassment?” she demanded of Claudine Gay, the new president of Harvard University.

“It can be, depending on the context,” Dr. Gay responded.

“What’s the context?” Ms. Stefanik shot back.

“Targeted at an individual,” Dr. Gay said.

“It’s targeted at Jewish students, Jewish individuals,” Ms. Stefanik said.
.......

Calling for the genocide of any group is despicable. I am not sure if it's free speech, but it is not harassment unless it names individuals. Stefanik is just wrong. If some idiot calls for the genocide of old white guys; I can't claim he is bullying and harassing me.

If he singles out Illiniray nichi, that is another bucket of fish.

Maybe calling for genocide should still be prohibited as an incitement to violence? What else?

Half the shit posted here?

Nichi, these are the same people who lose their shit when some knee jerk reactionary douchbag right-winger tries to speak on their campuses. There is a complete double standard here. Fuck those scumbag terrorist supporting  assholes.
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alum74

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Re: Let's talk about something we all can agree on...
« Reply #1202 on: December 10, 2023, 01:45:23 PM »
Quote from: ThePAMan on December 10, 2023, 08:56:24 AM
One down. Two more to go, at least, right?

These university presidents were obviously ill prepared by their attorneys.  If they can’t answer a simple softball question from an intellectual lightweight like Stefanik, how can they be expected to lead Ivy League institutions?  They should have rightly denounced genocide language directed against Jews (or any other group).  Then the hearing could have focused on whether existing policies on student safety are adequate or being enforced.  This should be an occasion for reviewing university polices about free speech and its boundaries, not scapegoating university officials who are obviously not personally antisemitic.  One problem is that students use slogans like “globalize the intifada” that have been interpreted by some as meaning one thing, while others say it means something else.  Now that’s where things get dicey.  Jonathan Chait has a more nuanced take on this brouhaha:  https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/12/college-presidents-antisemitism-campus-free-speech-congress-stefanik.html
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ThePAMan

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Re: Let's talk about something we all can agree on...
« Reply #1203 on: December 10, 2023, 01:56:27 PM »
Quote from: alum74 on December 10, 2023, 01:45:23 PM
These university presidents were obviously ill prepared by their attorneys.  If they can’t answer a simple softball question from an intellectual lightweight like Stefanik, how can they be expected to lead Ivy League institutions?  They should have rightly denounced genocide language directed against Jews (or any other group).  Then the hearing could have focused on whether existing policies on student safety are adequate or being enforced.  This should be an occasion for reviewing university polices about free speech and its boundaries, not scapegoating university officials who are obviously not personally antisemitic.  One problem is that students use slogans like “globalize the intifada” that have been interpreted by some as meaning one thing, while others say it means something else.  Now that’s where things get dicey.  Jonathan Chait has a more nuanced take on this brouhaha:  https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/12/college-presidents-antisemitism-campus-free-speech-congress-stefanik.html

Again, this ignores the issues occurring previously where jackass right-wingers have had their speeches canceled for "safety concerns" and have "taken sides" depending upon the issue. These assholes are getting called out and getting exactly what they deserve.
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alum74

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Re: Let's talk about something we all can agree on...
« Reply #1204 on: December 10, 2023, 02:04:18 PM »
Quote from: ThePAMan on December 10, 2023, 01:56:27 PM
Again, this ignores the issues occurring previously where jackass right-wingers have had their speeches canceled for "safety concerns" and have "taken sides" depending upon the issue. These assholes are getting called out and getting exactly what they deserve.

I didn’t ignore it.  I said “this should be an occasion for reviewing university polices about free speech and its boundaries…”  Usually, it takes one high-profile incident to start the ball rolling.  Everything is fair game, but this hearing focused primarily on campus antisemitism.  If this congressional committee wants to broaden the focus, go for it.   
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ThePAMan

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Re: Let's talk about something we all can agree on...
« Reply #1205 on: December 10, 2023, 02:06:44 PM »
Quote from: alum74 on December 10, 2023, 02:04:18 PM
I didn’t ignore it.  I said “this should be an occasion for reviewing university polices about free speech and its boundaries…”  Usually, it takes one high-profile incident to start the ball rolling.  Everything is fair game, but this hearing focused primarily on campus antisemitism.  If this congressional committee wants to broaden the focus, go for it.   

I was referring to the article.
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illiniray

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Re: Let's talk about something we all can agree on...
« Reply #1206 on: December 10, 2023, 03:03:00 PM »
Quote from: ThePAMan on December 10, 2023, 12:56:02 PM
Nichi, these are the same people who lose their shit when some knee jerk reactionary douchbag right-winger tries to speak on their campuses. There is a complete double standard here. Fuck those scumbag terrorist supporting  assholes.

That's a red herring.

Yes. Right wing nuts should be able to speak on campuses.

In some cases, the problem is providing security.

Also, speech codes are a separate issue from bullying and harassment.
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ThePAMan

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Re: Let's talk about something we all can agree on...
« Reply #1207 on: December 10, 2023, 03:04:33 PM »
Quote from: illiniray on December 10, 2023, 03:03:00 PM
That's a red herring.

Yes. Right wing nuts should be able to speak on campuses.

In some cases, the problem is providing security.

Also, speech codes are a separate issue from bullying and harassment.

Bullshit. They have been taking side when they should not be taking sides at all.
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illiniray

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Re: Let's talk about something we all can agree on...
« Reply #1208 on: December 10, 2023, 03:14:13 PM »
"The presidents’ efforts to deflect every question about genocide of the Jews into a legalistic distinction between speech and conduct may have sounded grating, and Stefanik’s indignant replies may have sounded like moral clarity. But on the whole, they were right to focus on the distinction between speech and conduct, and Stefanik was wrong to sneer at it. A better criticism would be that colleges are failing to protect Jewish students by refusing to enforce rules of conduct. But that is different from, and in some ways the opposite of, the point Stefanik chose to stand on." -- Jonathan Chait

fuckin a!
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ThePAMan

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Re: Let's talk about something we all can agree on...
« Reply #1209 on: December 10, 2023, 03:18:22 PM »
Quote from: illiniray on December 10, 2023, 03:14:13 PM
"The presidents’ efforts to deflect every question about genocide of the Jews into a legalistic distinction between speech and conduct may have sounded grating, and Stefanik’s indignant replies may have sounded like moral clarity. But on the whole, they were right to focus on the distinction between speech and conduct, and Stefanik was wrong to sneer at it. A better criticism would be that colleges are failing to protect Jewish students by refusing to enforce rules of conduct. But that is different from, and in some ways the opposite of, the point Stefanik chose to stand on." -- Jonathan Chait

fuckin a!

Except we all know these sucmbags are picking sides and are not standing on principle....so yay?
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illiniray

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Re: Let's talk about something we all can agree on...
« Reply #1210 on: December 10, 2023, 03:24:24 PM »
Quote from: ThePAMan on December 10, 2023, 03:18:22 PM
Except we all know these sucmbags are picking sides and are not standing on principle....so yay?


You mean Stefanik is not standing on principle?

I can agree with that.

« Last Edit: December 10, 2023, 03:29:28 PM by illiniray »
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illiniray

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Re: Let's talk about something we all can agree on...
« Reply #1211 on: December 10, 2023, 03:28:01 PM »
"Campuses have also been struggling for a decade or so with left-wing demands to make campuses “safe,” which has entailed cracking down on criticism of the political left." -- ibid

true
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ThePAMan

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Re: Let's talk about something we all can agree on...
« Reply #1212 on: December 10, 2023, 03:28:41 PM »
Quote from: illiniray on December 10, 2023, 03:24:24 PM

You mean Stefanik is not standing on principle?

I can agree with that.

And neither are those who lead universities.
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Judge Judy

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Re: Let's talk about something we all can agree on...
« Reply #1213 on: December 10, 2023, 03:32:16 PM »
Quote from: illiniray on December 10, 2023, 03:28:01 PM
"Campuses have also been struggling for a decade or so with left-wing demands to make campuses “safe,” which has entailed cracking down on criticism of the political left." -- ibid

true

Absolutely no one has cracked down on the political left on college campuses 😂 what the fuck?! If anything they have on the right and encouraged the extreme left and squad to run rampant on the quad.
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illiniray

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Re: Let's talk about something we all can agree on...
« Reply #1214 on: December 10, 2023, 03:33:11 PM »
"What Stefanik was demanding was the wholesale ban on rhetoric and ideas that Jews find threatening, regardless of context. A university should protect students from being mobbed or having their classes occupied and disrupted. But should it protect them from an op-ed in the student newspaper calling to globalize the intifada? Or a demonstration in an open space demanding “From the river to the sea”? That would entail wholesale violations of free speech, which, in addition to the moral problem it would create, would likely backfire by making pro-Palestinian activism a kind of forbidden rebellion rather than (as many students currently find it) an irritant." -- Ibid

Maybe that's what the right wing wants?
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