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Illini MENS Hoopers @ Piss cat away 12/2 @ 3 CST

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illiniray

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Re: Illini MENS Hoopers @ Piss cat away 12/2 @ 3 CST
« Reply #90 on: December 02, 2023, 07:56:02 PM »
If we didn't suck, probably would have won by 50.
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Lkdog

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Re: Illini MENS Hoopers @ Piss cat away 12/2 @ 3 CST
« Reply #91 on: December 02, 2023, 09:00:06 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on December 02, 2023, 05:08:51 PM
Hawkins was dominant on defense, and a big help in breaking the press in the second half.

I wouldn't say dominant, but you are right he had one of his better games on ball D today. 
It is hard to assess our D in some ways. That is a struggling offensive team that Rutgers has right now. 177th in country.

The next two games will show what we really have on D vs teams that can score.

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Custard

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Re: Illini MENS Hoopers @ Piss cat away 12/2 @ 3 CST
« Reply #92 on: December 02, 2023, 11:11:18 PM »
Why are we wearing the garbage 1LL1NO1S unis so much this year? They needed to go away years ago.
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Reacher

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Re: Illini MENS Hoopers @ Piss cat away 12/2 @ 3 CST
« Reply #93 on: December 02, 2023, 11:33:56 PM »
Quote from: ThePAMan on December 02, 2023, 05:04:27 PM
7 of 11.

Did they get a Big Gulp to go?
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spark mandrill

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Re: Illini MENS Hoopers @ Piss cat away 12/2 @ 3 CST
« Reply #94 on: December 03, 2023, 03:07:34 PM »
Quote from: Lkdog on December 02, 2023, 09:00:06 PM
I wouldn't say dominant, but you are right he had one of his better games on ball D today. 
It is hard to assess our D in some ways. That is a struggling offensive team that Rutgers has right now. 177th in country.

The next two games will show what we really have on D vs teams that can score.

Guess I’m not sure what else to call it.  You saw at the end of the first half what happened to our D when he had to sit with foul trouble.

He completely wrecked their gameplan in the half court.  Not sure how you’d calculate this without doing it manually but surely their offensive numbers with Hawkins on the court yesterday were absolutely horrible.

I was surprised to see anyone who watched the game say what you said (well, kinda - narratives around illini basketball often don’t seem beholden to any sort of quantifiable reality), because our team was far far better yesterday with Hawkins on the court than off it.
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illiniray

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Re: Illini MENS Hoopers @ Piss cat away 12/2 @ 3 CST
« Reply #95 on: December 03, 2023, 03:30:32 PM »
I enjoyed watching that game. Was that BU's spread offense / position-less basketball?

17 turnovers, only 5 in the 2nd half?

The lineup of Hawkins, Guerrier, Domask, Shannon, and Rodgers with Goode off the bench allows them to switch all 5 positions on defense effectively. They tried that last season, but scrapped it.

I didn't notice, are they still using drop coverage to defend to pick and roll with Dainja? He does look quicker, faster, more active. Only played 8 minutes.

Hansberry got some minutes. He is still figuring it out.

Harmon played a lot and was solid on offense. I didn't really notice him on defense.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2023, 03:33:48 PM by illiniray »
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spark mandrill

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Re: Illini MENS Hoopers @ Piss cat away 12/2 @ 3 CST
« Reply #96 on: December 03, 2023, 03:34:51 PM »
Decided to take a look at it.

FIRST HALF:

- Hawkins played the first half until Rutgers called a timeout with 14:49 left.  At that point it was 14-2 and Rutgers was 0/6 from the floor with 4 TO.  We fouled them 3 times resulting in two FT attempts.

- He sat until the 13:44 mark.  In that 1:05, Rutgers was 0/1 from the floor with 1 TO.  Pretty solid to this point with or without him.  We fouled them 2 times (both by Dainja, who came in for him) leading to 0 FT attempts.

- At the 12:42 mark, he got his second foul and sat for the rest of the half.  In the minute he played here, Rutgers was 1/2 from the field.  We fouled them once, leading to 2 FT attempts.

- In the 6 minutes, 13 seconds of the first half with Hawkins on the floor, Rutgers was 1/8 (12.5%) from the floor with 4 TO and scored 4 points.  We fouled them 4 times, leading to 4 FT attempts.

- In the 13:47 in the first half with Hawkins off the floor, Rutgers was 11/24 from the floor (45.8%) with 1 TO and scored 32 points.  We fouled them 8 times, leading to 9 FT attempts.


SECOND HALF:


- Hawkins played the entire second half.  Rutgers shot 8/28 from the floor (28.5%) with 5 TO and scored 22 points.  We fouled them 8 times, leading to 7 FT attempts.

OVERALL:

In the 26:13 Hawkins was on the floor, Rutgers shot 9/36 (25%) from the floor with 9 TO and scored 26 points.  We fouled them 12 times, leading to 11 FT attempts.

In the 13:47 Hawkins was off the floor, Rutgers shot 11/24 from the floor (45.8%) with 1 TO and scored 32 points.  We fouled them 8 times, leading to 9 FT attempts.

I'm pretty comfortable calling that dominant - he absolutely wrecked them.

EDITED BECAUSE I MISCOUNTED SOMETHING
« Last Edit: December 03, 2023, 04:16:13 PM by spark mandrill »
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Miles Leonard

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Re: Illini MENS Hoopers @ Piss cat away 12/2 @ 3 CST
« Reply #97 on: December 03, 2023, 04:26:41 PM »
Spark bringing the FACTS.
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Lkdog

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Re: Illini MENS Hoopers @ Piss cat away 12/2 @ 3 CST
« Reply #98 on: December 03, 2023, 05:23:02 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on December 03, 2023, 03:34:51 PM
Decided to take a look at it.

FIRST HALF:

- Hawkins played the first half until Rutgers called a timeout with 14:49 left.  At that point it was 14-2 and Rutgers was 0/6 from the floor with 4 TO.  We fouled them 3 times resulting in two FT attempts.

- He sat until the 13:44 mark.  In that 1:05, Rutgers was 0/1 from the floor with 1 TO.  Pretty solid to this point with or without him.  We fouled them 2 times (both by Dainja, who came in for him) leading to 0 FT attempts.

- At the 12:42 mark, he got his second foul and sat for the rest of the half.  In the minute he played here, Rutgers was 1/2 from the field.  We fouled them once, leading to 2 FT attempts.

- In the 6 minutes, 13 seconds of the first half with Hawkins on the floor, Rutgers was 1/8 (12.5%) from the floor with 4 TO and scored 4 points.  We fouled them 4 times, leading to 4 FT attempts.

- In the 13:47 in the first half with Hawkins off the floor, Rutgers was 11/24 from the floor (45.8%) with 1 TO and scored 32 points.  We fouled them 8 times, leading to 9 FT attempts.


SECOND HALF:


- Hawkins played the entire second half.  Rutgers shot 8/28 from the floor (28.5%) with 5 TO and scored 22 points.  We fouled them 8 times, leading to 7 FT attempts.

OVERALL:

In the 26:13 Hawkins was on the floor, Rutgers shot 9/36 (25%) from the floor with 9 TO and scored 26 points.  We fouled them 12 times, leading to 11 FT attempts.

In the 13:47 Hawkins was off the floor, Rutgers shot 11/24 from the floor (45.8%) with 1 TO and scored 32 points.  We fouled them 8 times, leading to 9 FT attempts.

I'm pretty comfortable calling that dominant - he absolutely wrecked them.

EDITED BECAUSE I MISCOUNTED SOMETHING

I think he looked better I will certainly give you that. I think stating he was dominant and he wrecked them is an overstatement, but we just disagree.
I acknowledged it was better. Instead of trying to make a highlight defensive play or block he played better fundamental position defense, especially in second half when he stayed out of foul trouble.

I am really not sure the numbers you cite are due to him or any other Illini in particular, or spurious, and due to better team D and more disciplined rotations overall and of course the abysmal shooting and offense by Rutgers who by the numbers is the worst offensive team in the league.
Hawkins individual defense YTD has been poor IMO. Again- We may disagree. He gets backed down and posted up and scored on pretty easily, commits silly fouls from lazy footwork and reaching and is soft. It was better yesterday for sure. Dominant is a stretch.

My comment in game was actually after another tentative weak take to the basket on offense. He was 3-9 from the field and threw up two more bricks from 3.
Now shooting 11% from three. He has been a liability on offense so far.

No, I am not, nor have ever been a fan of Hawkins and think he is over rated as a defender until he can improve his fundamentals. I would rather see the better fundamentals to get and hold position rather than the occasional highlight reel block.
But to be fair, this was a better game as you note and hopefully a sign of good things to come. We need him to be better.

« Last Edit: December 03, 2023, 05:25:14 PM by Lkdog »
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spark mandrill

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Re: Illini MENS Hoopers @ Piss cat away 12/2 @ 3 CST
« Reply #99 on: December 03, 2023, 05:49:10 PM »
Quote from: Lkdog on December 03, 2023, 05:23:02 PM
I think he looked better I will certainly give you that. I think stating he was dominant and he wrecked them is an overstatement, but we just disagree.
I acknowledged it was better. Instead of trying to make a highlight defensive play or block he played better fundamental position defense, especially in second half when he stayed out of foul trouble.

I am really not sure the numbers you cite are due to him or any other Illini in particular, or spurious, and due to better team D and more disciplined rotations overall and of course the abysmal shooting and offense by Rutgers who by the numbers is the worst offensive team in the league.
Hawkins individual defense YTD has been poor IMO. Again- We may disagree. He gets backed down and posted up and scored on pretty easily, commits silly fouls from lazy footwork and reaching and is soft. It was better yesterday for sure. Dominant is a stretch.

My comment in game was actually after another tentative weak take to the basket on offense. He was 3-9 from the field and threw up two more bricks from 3.
Now shooting 11% from three. He has been a liability on offense so far.

No, I am not, nor have ever been a fan of Hawkins and think he is over rated as a defender until he can improve his fundamentals. I would rather see the better fundamentals to get and hold position rather than the occasional highlight reel block.
But to be fair, this was a better game as you note and hopefully a sign of good things to come. We need him to be better.

Haha, yeah.  Probably just a coincidence that they scored more points in half the time, and shot 20% better from the field, without him on the floor.

Your preconception about Hawkins definitely couldn’t be playing into this.
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ILLove1997

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Re: Illini MENS Hoopers @ Piss cat away 12/2 @ 3 CST
« Reply #100 on: December 03, 2023, 05:59:04 PM »
Quote from: ILLove1997 on December 02, 2023, 04:52:11 PM
Curious what his +- is this game, seems somehow like we play a lot better with him in than out today at least

So with sparks stats +25?  I don't have time to math right now
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Reacher

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Re: Illini MENS Hoopers @ Piss cat away 12/2 @ 3 CST
« Reply #101 on: December 03, 2023, 06:01:06 PM »
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spark mandrill

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Re: Illini MENS Hoopers @ Piss cat away 12/2 @ 3 CST
« Reply #102 on: December 03, 2023, 06:05:02 PM »
Quote from: Tempo34 on December 03, 2023, 06:01:06 PM
This seems like a pretty big stretch.

https://www.thechampaignroom.com/2023/12/3/23986159/brad-underwood-has-his-best-team-at-illinois-right-now-fighting-illini-ncaa-big-ten

It's very indicative of that embarrassment of a site (it's no Writing Illini, but in terms of terrible writing that's a nearly unsurpassable bar).  I bet you could find an article like this from a year ago too.

I think this team has the potential to be an awful lot better than last year's team.  I think it has the potential to make a tournament run.  Any of that is FAR from written, there is way, way too much season left to say anything close to what that headline says.  We looked good yesterday - we need to look good in these next three against real teams.  If we defend and rebound like that, we are going to be tough - definitely have work to do on offense though.  I hope Shannon has an AA type season, but we shouldn't need to rely on him to bail us out.

Also Shannon has been fantastic so far including shooting the ball, but he was shooting the ball well at this point last year (43% through 7 games last year, 46% through 7 this year) and finished at 32%.  Obviously him being a 40% shooter would go a very long way for both our season and his pro future, but I don't think I would bet on it either.  If he shoots 37% over a whole season I think that'd be great.

The biggest improvement I've seen from Shannon is that he's willingly gone right a number of times so far.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2023, 06:09:24 PM by spark mandrill »
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ILLove1997

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Re: Illini MENS Hoopers @ Piss cat away 12/2 @ 3 CST
« Reply #103 on: December 03, 2023, 06:08:01 PM »
Yeah the 2019-2020 and 2020-2021 teams were better but who knows lot of season left to play
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Lkdog

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Re: Illini MENS Hoopers @ Piss cat away 12/2 @ 3 CST
« Reply #104 on: December 03, 2023, 06:22:24 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on December 03, 2023, 05:49:10 PM
Haha, yeah.  Probably just a coincidence that they scored more points in half the time, and shot 20% better from the field, without him on the floor.

Your preconception about Hawkins definitely couldn’t be playing into this.

It is not a preconception - the guy has been simply bad for us this year on both sides of the ball.
I am objective about him. He was a 3 star #167 coming in and has played to that level.
I hope he gets to another level. If he can impact the games in the next two games against good teams that will be a good sign.








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