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2023 PORTAL TRACKING THREAD

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spark mandrill

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Re: 2023 PORTAL TRACKING THREAD
« Reply #555 on: April 18, 2023, 08:05:28 PM »
Quote from: Dominic on April 18, 2023, 08:01:52 PM
If Arizona State had the same history Illinois has, and the same expectation level- yes they’d have fired Hurley by now.  But they don’t.

If Hurley was 71-76 at Arizona for instance, he’d have been fired.

Illinois should have the same expectation level as Arizona.

But Hurley's a notably better coach.  So why does he have notably worse results?

Don't even answer, whatever stupid rationalization you're going to shit out isn't going to provide any value to anyone.  We both know you can't answer it without pretending, so let's just skip to the part where you say "just pretend!" and I make fun of you for how much of a dumbass you are.
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Reacher

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Re: 2023 PORTAL TRACKING THREAD
« Reply #556 on: April 18, 2023, 08:08:20 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on April 18, 2023, 07:47:48 PM
But Hurley hasn't had that success, whether you arbitrarily remove the years he had his best players or not.  So why do you suspect their results are so different if they're such comparable coaches?

Ignoring, of course, that the argument "this coach is bad because his record is bad if you don't count the years his record was good" is self evidently stupid as fuck.

TBH I don’t really give a shit about Hurley. He doesn’t coach here. He’s probably a decent coach. Not a lot more.
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"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.
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spark mandrill

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Re: 2023 PORTAL TRACKING THREAD
« Reply #557 on: April 18, 2023, 08:09:50 PM »
Quote from: Tempo34 on April 18, 2023, 08:08:20 PM
TBH I don’t really give a shit about Hurley. He doesn’t coach here. He’s probably a decent coach. Not a lot more.

Uh, then why did you go out of your way to claim there isn't much difference between Hurley and Underwood?  Or that Hurley's better at X's and O's?
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Reacher

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Re: 2023 PORTAL TRACKING THREAD
« Reply #558 on: April 18, 2023, 08:10:59 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on April 18, 2023, 07:49:38 PM
He won multiple tournament games with a team from the Southland Conference.

Made the tournament in his first year at a high Major at OK State.

Resurrected our program.


There's a reason his record is notably better than Hurley's even if you, for some unknown stupid reason, disqualify his biggest successes.  Like even if you cut off Underwood's best three years in his career, his record - win%, conf win%, tournament appearances, tournament wins - is notably better than Hurley's.  He won two more tournament games in his three years in the Southland than Hurley has in his 10 year career.

If you're going to call two coaches comparable, you surely  must have some sort of reasoning as to why one's results would be so notably better than the others', right?

Again. I’ve never said Underwood hasn’t done a decent job. He has. I’m just not convinced his ceiling is as high as we thought it might be a year or two ago. That’s it. I’m not asking for him to be fired.
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"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.
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Dominic

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Re: 2023 PORTAL TRACKING THREAD
« Reply #559 on: April 18, 2023, 08:12:31 PM »
Sparky is that loud vocal Auburn fan “We can’t fire Coach Chizik.  The man won us a national title”

Other fans that actually understand sports:

“Ugh you see Cam Newton.  Coach Chizik ain’t recruiting another Cam Newton”

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Reacher

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Re: 2023 PORTAL TRACKING THREAD
« Reply #560 on: April 18, 2023, 08:14:28 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on April 18, 2023, 08:09:50 PM
Uh, then why did you go out of your way to claim there isn't much difference between Hurley and Underwood?  Or that Hurley's better at X's and O's?

Because I don’t think there is. Hurley might be just fine here at Illinois, too. ASU historically makes the tourney once every 4 years. I’d say he’s lifted the program (some). But at the end of the day, I’m not really concerned about Hurley. But if you want my opinion, he and Underwood would probably be about even swaps. That’s just my opinion. I could be wrong.
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"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.
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Dominic

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Re: 2023 PORTAL TRACKING THREAD
« Reply #561 on: April 18, 2023, 08:14:38 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on April 18, 2023, 08:05:28 PM
But Hurley's a notably better coach. 

Yes, and his better conference record at a far inferior sports school proves it.
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spark mandrill

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Re: 2023 PORTAL TRACKING THREAD
« Reply #562 on: April 18, 2023, 08:19:44 PM »
Quote from: Tempo34 on April 18, 2023, 08:14:28 PM
Because I don’t think there is. Hurley might be just fine here at Illinois, too. ASU historically makes the tourney once every 4 years. I’d say he’s lifted the program (some). But at the end of the day, I’m not really concerned about Hurley. But if you want my opinion, he and Underwood would probably be about even swaps. That’s just my opinion. I could be wrong.

So I'm asking: if there isn't much difference between them, then why are the results so different between them?

There's gotta be a reason, you're picking a coach with a much better record than another coach over a decade and saying "they're an even swap", what explains the disparity between their results given how comparable they are as high major college basketball coaches?
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spark mandrill

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Re: 2023 PORTAL TRACKING THREAD
« Reply #563 on: April 18, 2023, 08:20:21 PM »
Quote from: Dominic on April 18, 2023, 08:14:38 PM
Yes, and his better conference record at a far inferior sports school proves it.

You forgot the asterisk.

Better conference record, slightly, if you arbitrarily ignore three of Underwood's eleven seasons*

He has a notably worse conference record than Underwood, no matter how you slice it.

Obviously we both recognize you can't win this debate without pretending - that's what happens when the objective data exclusively counters your viewpoint.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2023, 08:22:04 PM by spark mandrill »
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Reacher

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Re: 2023 PORTAL TRACKING THREAD
« Reply #564 on: April 18, 2023, 08:22:17 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on April 18, 2023, 08:19:44 PM
So I'm asking: if there isn't much difference between them, then why are the results so different between them?

There's gotta be a reason, you're picking a coach with a much better record than another coach over a decade and saying "they're an even swap", what explains the disparity between their results given how comparable they are as high major college basketball coaches?

Surely you understand that success at a historically good program vs success at a historically poor program aren’t 100% comparable or translatable, right?
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"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.
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Reacher

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Re: 2023 PORTAL TRACKING THREAD
« Reply #565 on: April 18, 2023, 08:24:13 PM »
You put Calipari at Kentucky, or Calipari at Oregon State, I’m pretty sure his results will be better at Kentucky. Same guy. Just one situation is more advantageous.
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"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.
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Dominic

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Re: 2023 PORTAL TRACKING THREAD
« Reply #566 on: April 18, 2023, 08:27:06 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on April 18, 2023, 08:20:21 PM
You forgot the asterisk.

Better conference record, slightly, if you arbitrarily ignore three of Underwood's eleven seasons*

He has a notably worse conference record than Underwood, no matter how you slice it.

Obviously we both recognize you can't win this debate without pretending - that's what happens when the objective data exclusively counters your viewpoint.

Now we’re comparing apples to
apples.

High Major Jobs where they took over for a coach that had gotten fired.

71-76. >>>>. 31-45

31-45 is terrible.  It’s a level that got John Groce fired

And yes, Kofi is a gigantic asterisk. Rightfully so
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spark mandrill

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Re: 2023 PORTAL TRACKING THREAD
« Reply #567 on: April 18, 2023, 08:27:47 PM »
Quote from: Tempo34 on April 18, 2023, 08:22:17 PM
Surely you understand that success at a historically good program vs success at a historically poor program aren’t 100% comparable or translatable, right?

I don't see why comparable high major coaches taking over comparable rebuilds would have such disparate results, no - can you explain it to me without acting like it's just a truism?

One of the two guys took over a program with a previous four year record of 70-61 (34-38), one NCAA appearance and no wins, two NIT appearances.

The other took over a program with a previous four year record of 73-65 (29-43), no NCAA appearances, three NIT appearances.
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spark mandrill

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Re: 2023 PORTAL TRACKING THREAD
« Reply #568 on: April 18, 2023, 08:28:40 PM »
Quote from: Dominic on April 18, 2023, 08:27:06 PM
Now we’re comparing apples to
apples.

High Major Jobs where they took over for a coach that had gotten fired.

71-76. >>>>. 31-45

31-45 is terrible.  It’s a level that got John Groce fired

We're comparing "apples" to "apples but what if a third of the apples didn't count for no reason"?
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spark mandrill

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Re: 2023 PORTAL TRACKING THREAD
« Reply #569 on: April 18, 2023, 08:29:06 PM »
Quote from: Tempo34 on April 18, 2023, 08:24:13 PM
You put Calipari at Kentucky, or Calipari at Oregon State, I’m pretty sure his results will be better at Kentucky. Same guy. Just one situation is more advantageous.

Calipari went to the Final Four at the University of Massachussetts and Memphis.

Look at this resume and tell me how much better the results were at Kentucky than everywhere else he coached.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Calipari#Head_coaching_record


Very, very slightly better (.774 at UK, .759 at Memphis, .730 at UMass) overall, in conference he was .755 at UK, .802 at Memphis, .689 at UMass.

He was a damn good coach no matter where he coached - if anything, he's evidence against the point I think you're trying to make.  His win% and tournament success didn't change all that much at Kentucky, because he's been that good everywhere he's coached.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2023, 08:32:30 PM by spark mandrill »
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