* *

User

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

June 21, 2026, 06:51:31 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Recent

Stats

Members
  • Total Members: 142
  • Latest: Hal9000
Stats
  • Total Posts: 180515
  • Total Topics: 1496
  • Online Today: 500
  • Online Ever: 4316
  • (October 16, 2025, 04:40:42 PM)
Users Online
Users: 0
Guests: 360
Total: 360

« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 12 13 [14] 15 16 ... 23   Go Down

who leaves

  • 343 Replies
  • 25812 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

*

Reacher

  • *****
  • 40211
  • +1082/-1068
  • You should see my passer rating
    • View Profile
Re: who leaves
« Reply #195 on: April 04, 2023, 03:48:35 PM »
Here’s where I stand. No doubt Underwood resurrected the program from the depths. But I’m not convinced his arrow is pointing up, and IMO it’s more likely pointing down. If a dysfunctional, deeply flawed, and unmotivated team is the best Underwood can do with a widely heralded transfer class and the #11 freshman class, then I’m not optimistic his ceiling is pointing up post Kofi/Ayo/Shannon. Not to mention, we’ve discussed his actual coaching chop shortcomings ad nauseam. Next year is an important year for Underwood, and I think it’ll tell us a lot.
Logged
"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.
*

spark mandrill

  • *****
  • 4043
  • +312/-40
    • View Profile
Re: who leaves
« Reply #196 on: April 04, 2023, 03:53:12 PM »
Yes, we've complained all throughout Underwood winning the most games in the league over the last 4 years.  I don't think that's the evidence you want to present though.

I don't know how anyone could know what direction Underwood's arrow is pointing right now.  In a down year, we were a no-doubt tourney team.  If that's the norm, there are very few coaches that can do that consistently.  If that's the high water mark going forward, then yeah of course we'll need to move on.  I don't know how anyone could say that one way or another right now though.
Logged
*

Lkdog

  • *****
  • 3204
  • +440/-231
    • View Profile
Re: who leaves
« Reply #197 on: April 04, 2023, 04:11:52 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on April 04, 2023, 03:53:12 PM
Yes, we've complained all throughout Underwood winning the most games in the league over the last 4 years.  I don't think that's the evidence you want to present though.

I don't know how anyone could know what direction Underwood's arrow is pointing right now.  In a down year, we were a no-doubt tourney team.  If that's the norm, there are very few coaches that can do that consistently.  If that's the high water mark going forward, then yeah of course we'll need to move on.  I don't know how anyone could say that one way or another right now though.

If just making the tourney is the benchmark, then we have our guy as my guess is we can be a 10 win league team and Top 40 KenPom team most years.
He is now 0-7 in the tourney, however, getting to a S16.
He has a 4-7 tourney record.
And he is pretty much an unlikeable redass by players and fans and stakeholders.

« Last Edit: April 04, 2023, 04:14:37 PM by Lkdog »
Logged
*

spark mandrill

  • *****
  • 4043
  • +312/-40
    • View Profile
Re: who leaves
« Reply #198 on: April 04, 2023, 04:14:33 PM »
LOL, suddenly after a slightly disappointment he's unlikable.  Incredible.  His players mostly seem to like him, honestly.  There have been a few that butted heads with him, but that's true of a lot of coaches.  Having a bunch of transfers like everybody else isn't evidence his players don't like him.

In my experience, you have a much better chance of making a tournament run as a 9 seed than an NIT participant.  So yes, making the tournament every year is step one.  It's not the last step, but it's the first step toward making tournament runs.

We can start over, but the chances are better we get someone that stumbles over that first step than someone who clears the next one consistently.
Logged
*

Lkdog

  • *****
  • 3204
  • +440/-231
    • View Profile
Re: who leaves
« Reply #199 on: April 04, 2023, 04:23:49 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on April 04, 2023, 04:14:33 PM
LOL, suddenly after a slightly disappointment he's unlikable.  Incredible.

In my experience, you have a much better chance of making a tournament run as a 9 seed than an NIT participant.  So yes, making the tournament every year is step one.  It's not the last step, but it's the first step toward making tournament runs.

We can start over, but the chances are better we get someone that stumbles over that first step than someone who clears the next one consistently.

Spark, I know you are a big fan of UW, but UW has never been what anyone would call a likeable guy. LOL. The act was tolerable when they were winning in his third and fourth year and it looked like he could get buy in.
And the disappointments started three years ago, not this year, with the Loyola melt down being totally unprepared and outcoached as a 1 seed.

The arrow is trending down and he has lost whatever national mojo and visibility we had in 2019/20 and 2020/21.

We are just another wannabe team now.
Logged
*

spark mandrill

  • *****
  • 4043
  • +312/-40
    • View Profile
Re: who leaves
« Reply #200 on: April 04, 2023, 04:36:37 PM »
Quote from: Lkdog on April 04, 2023, 04:23:49 PM
Spark, I know you are a big fan of UW, but UW has never been what anyone would call a likeable guy. LOL. The act was tolerable when they were winning in his third and fourth year and it looked like he could get buy in.
And the disappointments started three years ago, not this year, with the Loyola melt down being totally unprepared and outcoached as a 1 seed.

The arrow is trending down and he has lost whatever national mojo and visibility we had in 2019/20 and 2020/21.

We are just another wannabe team now.

That's funny.  Literally everybody I know in real life and talk Illinois sports with like him.

I will say that when we hired him, I expected not to.  I thought I'd feel about him like you apparently do.  But I haven't, really at all.  He gets fiery during games, sometimes probably takes that too far (ignoring the multiple comments from individual players about liking/disliking that approach), but he seems like a pretty intelligent, mostly relaxed, and positive guy most of the time off the court.  Obviously I only see what is presented on television (same as you, I assume), but I'm surprised you think he's super unlikable. 

I think he's consistently been a solid, if not flashy or obviously great, coach at every stop he's been at.  I think he knows what it takes to win games at the college level, but I do think it's fair to question whether he knows how to put himself in that position in the portal era - that said, that's a question for literally every coach right now, including the ones that went deep in this year's tournament.  The portal is wild, and everyone's learning to adjust to it.  I think Underwood got some splashes this year, but they weren't great for the team chemistry.  It will be interesting to see whether he learns from it and adjusts.

I do think fan negativity about a guy who frankly has been pretty darn good for our program overall in terms of where we were when we hired him to now has some level of negative impact on things - it's nearly impossible to win a fanbase back after they've turned on you, and I think we're pretty close to that point with Underwood no matter how the next couple years go.  It's not like if he makes the S16 next year people be saying "I was wrong about Underwood I guess", it'll be "well can he do it every year though?" or "why did we lose to that 7 seed in the S16? we should've been in the E8!" or whatever.  Every single year our fans act like they'd rather have the guys in the Final Four than Underwood, ignoring that by their own standards we would've just fired those guys before they got there.

Not that this is the end-all be-all by any means, but counting the COVID year when we would've made it, how many times has Illinois had four straight tournament teams?

Henson had 8 straight in the 1980's.  Self and Weber made 7 straight in the 2000's.  I think that's the whole list.

As for me being a 'big fan' of Underwood - I think a lot of the criticism he gets is unwarranted, and short-sighted.  I don't know that I'd say I'm super bullish on the guy.    There are definitely a number of coaches that if I knew we could 100% get them I'd be fine with making that move, but that's not really how hiring works most of the time.  I also think if we fire him, the chances we get a guy that's definitely better are considerably lower than the chances we get a guy that's definitely worse - do you agree with that?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2023, 04:43:23 PM by spark mandrill »
Logged
*

Dominic

  • *****
  • 1605
  • +2/-65535
    • View Profile
Re: who leaves
« Reply #201 on: April 04, 2023, 04:39:02 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on April 04, 2023, 04:14:33 PM
Having a bunch of transfers like everybody else isn't evidence his players don't like him.


Yes it is.  When IL pays more than just about anyone in NIL, and guys still leave, it means they hate the boss.

Think of Illinois as a company.  The boss is having a ton of turnover in his employees despite the company offering more benefits than anyone else.  So they must hate the boss
Logged
*

spark mandrill

  • *****
  • 4043
  • +312/-40
    • View Profile
Re: who leaves
« Reply #202 on: April 04, 2023, 04:41:35 PM »
Literally no one cares what you think about it Dom.  Zero people.

The adults are talking.
Logged
*

spark mandrill

  • *****
  • 4043
  • +312/-40
    • View Profile
Re: who leaves
« Reply #203 on: April 04, 2023, 04:56:29 PM »
Coming into this year, here are the last-4 year records for the Final Four coaches.

Dan Hurley:
73-47 (40-32 half in the AAC and half in the Big East), two tourney appearances, 0-2 record - probably wouldn't have made it the COVID year.

Jim Larranaga:
65-62 (30-47 in the ACC), one tourney appearance, 3-1 record (E8)

Dusty May
65-56 (34-32 in Conference USA), no tourney appearances

Brian Dutcher
97-29 (54-15 in the Mountain West), 2 tourney appearances (would've definitely been in the COVID year, so we'll count it as 3), 0-2 record.

Which one of these coaches would our fans not have been calling to fire coming into this season?  Dutcher, MAYBE?  Coming off consecutive first round tourney losses to lower seeds, though.  Larranaga maybe coming off an E8, but he wouldn't even have gotten to last year.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2023, 04:58:31 PM by spark mandrill »
Logged
*

Reacher

  • *****
  • 40211
  • +1082/-1068
  • You should see my passer rating
    • View Profile
Re: who leaves
« Reply #204 on: April 04, 2023, 05:28:37 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on April 04, 2023, 03:53:12 PM
Yes, we've complained all throughout Underwood winning the most games in the league over the last 4 years.  I don't think that's the evidence you want to present though.

I don't know how anyone could know what direction Underwood's arrow is pointing right now.  In a down year, we were a no-doubt tourney team.  If that's the norm, there are very few coaches that can do that consistently.  If that's the high water mark going forward, then yeah of course we'll need to move on.  I don't know how anyone could say that one way or another right now though.

Again, he did that when he had two All-Americans on the roster. Two players that made 1st team All-American in their careers; a feat rarely accomplished at Illinois. And his deepest run was 1st weekend. Punked by an 8 seed. Yes, he’s decent enough. Is he the best we can do? I’m not sure about that.
Logged
"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.
*

spark mandrill

  • *****
  • 4043
  • +312/-40
    • View Profile
Re: who leaves
« Reply #205 on: April 04, 2023, 05:30:19 PM »
Quote from: Tempo34 on April 04, 2023, 05:28:37 PM
Again, he did that when he had two All-Americans on the roster. Two players that made 1st team All-American in their careers; a feat rarely accomplished at Illinois. And his deepest run was 1st weekend. Punked by an 8 seed. Yes, he’s decent enough. Is he the best we can do? I’m not sure about that.

That stat includes a year when neither guy had ever been (or really was considered to be a candidate for) an All American, one year with two All Americans, one year with one, and one year with none.

Who do you propose we replace him with who would definitely be better?

Do you think if we were to fire him we'd be more likely to get someone who is for sure better, or for sure worse than Underwood?
Logged
*

Reacher

  • *****
  • 40211
  • +1082/-1068
  • You should see my passer rating
    • View Profile
Re: who leaves
« Reply #206 on: April 04, 2023, 05:33:56 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on April 04, 2023, 05:30:19 PM
That stat includes a year when neither guy had ever been (or really was considered to be a candidate for) an All American, one year with two All Americans, one year with one, and one year with none.

Who do you propose we replace him with who would definitely be better?

Do you think if we were to fire him we'd be more likely to get someone who is for sure better, or for sure worse than Underwood?

It’s possible we get someone worse. But I’m willing to take that chance and unload a 60 year old redass who seems to have shown us his ceiling. I’m not saying I’d fire him. I’m just saying if he got hired away, I’d be perfectly ok with that.
Logged
"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.
*

spark mandrill

  • *****
  • 4043
  • +312/-40
    • View Profile
Re: who leaves
« Reply #207 on: April 04, 2023, 05:36:07 PM »
Quote from: Tempo34 on April 04, 2023, 05:33:56 PM
It’s possible we get someone worse. But I’m willing to take that chance and unload a 60 year old redass who seems to have shown us his ceiling. I’m not saying I’d fire him. I’m just saying if he got hired away, I’d be perfectly ok with that.

I didn't ask if it was possible.

Do you think it's more likely the coach we'd get after firing him would be better, or worse?

Not sure how you decide what a coach's 'ceiling' is, given that we're talking ultimately about a complete crapshoot single elimination tournament.
Logged
*

Reacher

  • *****
  • 40211
  • +1082/-1068
  • You should see my passer rating
    • View Profile
Re: who leaves
« Reply #208 on: April 04, 2023, 05:37:44 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on April 04, 2023, 05:36:07 PM
I didn't ask if it was possible.

Do you think it's more likely the coach we'd get after firing him would be better, or worse?

No. But I’ll admit, the “potential” of the Illinois basketball program is one thing I’ve never been a pessimist on.
Logged
"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.
*

spark mandrill

  • *****
  • 4043
  • +312/-40
    • View Profile
Re: who leaves
« Reply #209 on: April 04, 2023, 05:38:37 PM »
Quote from: Tempo34 on April 04, 2023, 05:37:44 PM
No. But I’ll admit, the “potential” of the Illinois basketball program is one thing I’ve never been a pessimist on.

It wasn't a yes or no question :)

Do you think it's more likely the next guy is better or worse?
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 12 13 [14] 15 16 ... 23   Go Up
« previous next »