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Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?

No
5 (35.7%)
Yes
9 (64.3%)

Total Members Voted: 14

Voting closed: January 26, 2024, 10:59:11 AM

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Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?

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ThePAMan

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #180 on: May 17, 2024, 03:57:47 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on May 17, 2024, 03:10:54 PM
Yep.  The DIA policy as-written did not provide adequate safeguards for his civil rights.  Literally exactly the thing I said that you just argued against.  The judge did NOT find that the DIA didn't apply its own policies correctly.  She found that the DIA DID apply the policies correctly, but that the policies as-written violated his civil rights by not allowing him a hearing in front of an OSCR panel without the means to make a determination of his guilt or innocence before he was suspended.

It's literally exactly, to a T, what I said and you argued against.  The judge really explicitly says that the DIA followed its policies, but that the policies (which surely are boilerplate and similar to every other AD in the country) as-written did not afford him due process.

Au contraire. I said Illinois.

She ruled that the DIA policies incorporated all of the applicable University policies and regulations, which meant the OSCR policy applied prior to the DIA’s interim suspension. She ruled that the OSCR policy was fair as written. She ruled that the DIA suspension process in this instance did not conform to the OSCR policy processes and therefore lacked the procedural safeguards.
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illiniray

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #181 on: May 17, 2024, 04:01:53 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on May 17, 2024, 01:33:13 PM
So she's never said she didn't know if it was him, even in his own lawyers' motion?

Obviously their job is to create doubt in a jury (and, in the case of this extremely public case, in the Illini fanbase).  There is no claim at least to this point from her that she doesn't know whether it was him.

She said she believed it was him. She never said she knew it was him.

She testified under oath she didn't actually see who touched her. She believed it was the man standing against the wall to her left. She believes that man was Shannon.

I believe she didn't realize Shannon is left handed. I don't know this. I believe it.

Picture both of them standing against a wall. Shannon allegedly on her left. It would be hard for a 6-7 man to do what was alleged. Pretty much impossible to do with his left hand.

If the man on her left did it; I believe he was more likely right handed.

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spark mandrill

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #182 on: May 17, 2024, 04:03:36 PM »
Quote from: illiniray on May 17, 2024, 04:01:53 PM
She said she believed it was him. She never said she knew it was him.

She testified underoath she didn't actually see who touched her. She believed it was the man standing against the wall to her left. She believes that man was Shannon.

I believe she didn't realize Shannon is left handed. I don't know this. I believe it.

Picture both of them standing against a wall. Shannon allegedly on her left. It would be hard for a 6-7 man to do what was alleged. Pretty much impossible to do with his left hand.

If the man on her left did it; I believe he was more likely right handed.

She never said she didn’t know it was him, which was the claim.  His lawyers are saying that.  She, based on the information that we have, has not.
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ThePAMan

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #183 on: May 17, 2024, 04:05:57 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on May 17, 2024, 03:55:19 PM
Nope, I said the judge ruled that Shannon couldn’t be suspended without a conviction because he wasn’t granted an OSCR hearing - which would by necessity be a sham.  Which is true.  I also mentioned the updated regulation codifying that.  Which is also true.  You argued against those things, but those things were still true.

My solution would be to give the athletic departments control over who represents them, allow them to suspend kids absent a criminal conviction and not put it on some University board with none of the evidence to determine someone’s guilt in an upcoming criminal trial, which they are uniformly unqualified to do.  Not like that’s some crazy notion, that’s how this has always worked until now.  If I had posted on this board in October that it’s a violation of a kid’s civil rights to suspend him from a sport absent a criminal conviction or a determination of guilt by a University panel without all the evidence I’d have been laughed at.  This idea is brand new.  No one here thought that was some egregious civil rights violation until it affected our basketball team’s best player.

Unless you can prove to a court that a kid is an imminent danger, it IS true that you can’t suspend them even with video evidence.  You’re violating their rights unless you hold a Title IX hearing, and no board like that is ever going to have the evidence they need to make that kind of determination before a court does.

No, again, I’m under no delusions.  A lot of people in every fanbase are willing to sacrifice what they know is right to win at sports.  That doesn’t mean it’s justifiable or positive though - in fact it’s extremely gross.

No, it isn't true. That is not what she ruled.

Ok, you do not believe in Due Process. You are not alone there.

I think you underestimate what university boards have done. The standard applied is not a criminal standard. These have been around for sometime; these proceedings are not new. They just are not as public as this one was.

You are painting with quite the broad brush. Depends on who is cooperating and what video evidence they have whether they have the evidence necessary to make that kind of determination. It is not a "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard in these proceedings. Decisions made by a school are given deference (unless they fail to follow their policies).
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illiniray

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #184 on: May 17, 2024, 04:07:10 PM »
I suppose his lawyers could be lying about her testimony in motions before the court. I believe they are telling the truth. I don't know that.
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spark mandrill

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #185 on: May 17, 2024, 04:07:32 PM »
Quote from: ThePAMan on May 17, 2024, 04:05:57 PM
No, it isn't true. That is not what she ruled.

Ok, you do not believe in Due Process. You are not alone there.

I think you underestimate what university boards have done. The standard applied is not a criminal standard. These have been around for sometime; these proceedings are not new. They just are not as public as this one was.

You are painting with quite the broad brush. Depends on who is cooperating and what video evidence they have whether they have the evidence necessary to make that kind of determination. It is not a "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard in these proceedings. Decisions made by a school are given deference (unless they fail to follow their policies).

I assume this is a tacit admission that you could not find an instance where an accuser provided their evidence and testimony, and the police provided their evidence and reports, to a university board regarding an ongoing criminal trial.

I think we both knew you wouldn't.

No school is going to put it on their Title IX board or OSCR board to determine the likelihood of guilt of an athlete - and thus whether he can represent the university - sans the evidence before a court does.  That's just begging for problems.  No one is going to do that.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2024, 04:10:40 PM by spark mandrill »
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spark mandrill

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #186 on: May 17, 2024, 04:08:22 PM »
Quote from: illiniray on May 17, 2024, 04:07:10 PM
I suppose his lawyers could be lying about her testimony in motions before the court. I believe they are telling the truth. I don't know that.

They don't need to lie.  They just did not make the claim that you're trying to use their motion as evidence of.

The claim was that the accuser does not know who did it.  The evidence you provided from his lawyer's motion does not make or support that claim.  It is trying to introduce some reasonable doubt about who did it, but it nowhere claims that she says "I don't know if it was him or who it was" - which was the claim being made. 
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illiniray

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #187 on: May 17, 2024, 04:11:21 PM »
I think it does.  I believe I am right. You believe I am mistaken. She believes she knows who it was.
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spark mandrill

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #188 on: May 17, 2024, 04:14:34 PM »
Quote from: illiniray on May 17, 2024, 04:11:21 PM
I think it does.  I believe I am right. You believe I am mistaken. She believes she knows who it was.

Every accuser believes she knows who it was, and every defense attorney does whatever they can to inject reasonable doubt in the minds of others (literally their job).  The claim that she doesn't know who it was that assaulted her - even totally ignoring that this is like the 6th time you idiots were so sure about something and then changed the narrative on a dime and mere days ago you were among the chorus of people confident she was lying about the whole thing - isn't supported by the current evidence we have regardless of what you "think".
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ThePAMan

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #189 on: May 17, 2024, 04:22:51 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on May 17, 2024, 04:07:32 PM
I assume this is a tacit admission that you could not find an instance where an accuser provided their evidence and testimony, and the police provided their evidence and reports, to a university board regarding an ongoing criminal trial.

I think we both knew you wouldn't.

No school is going to put it on their Title IX board or OSCR board to determine the likelihood of guilt of an athlete - and thus whether he can represent the university - sans the evidence before a court does.  That's just begging for problems.  No one is going to do that.

I am not going to spend time on Westlaw looking for cases. If I come across something, will let you know.

Bullshit. You ignore what was happening under Obama. Which is why the DeVore DOE changed the Obama policy.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/22/obama-era-school-sexual-assault-policy-rescinded-243016

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spark mandrill

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #190 on: May 17, 2024, 04:34:21 PM »
Quote from: ThePAMan on May 17, 2024, 04:22:51 PM
I am not going to spend time on Westlaw looking for cases. If I come across something, will let you know.

Bullshit. You ignore what was happening under Obama. Which is why the DeVore DOE changed the Obama policy.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/22/obama-era-school-sexual-assault-policy-rescinded-243016

You'd be wasting time anyway.  It's just not a thing that happens, obviously.  You're supposedly a lawyer, right?  Would you support your client providing their evidence to a University Title IX board, even ignoring the police report being a non-starter, before they have presented it in an upcoming criminal trial?  Either as an accuser or as a defendant?

Your link about DeVos overturning the Obama era standard certainly doesn't support your claim.  But that makes sense, because I think we both know you are not going to find support for your claim.  The notion that a criminal defendant and their accuser are going to go to a university OSCR or Title IX board and provide their evidence and testimony before a criminal trial, or that a police department is going to provide their evidence and reporting to those boards, simply isn't reality.  No lawyer is going to allow their client to provide evidence that has not yet been presented in their criminal trial to a UIUC Title IX board, which is why you cannot find any evidence of that happening.  To put it on that board to determine their guilt based on "clear and convincing evidence" when, by necessity, they have little-to-none of the evidence that will be used at the actual criminal trial is not a realistic ask.  If there aren't criminal charges filed, that could be different - but the idea that a Title IX board needs to make a determination on someone's guilt BEFORE the case is tried in criminal court in order to suspend a college athlete is self-evidently absurd.
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illiniray

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #191 on: May 17, 2024, 04:51:41 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on May 17, 2024, 04:14:34 PM
Every accuser believes she knows who it was, and every defense attorney does whatever they can to inject reasonable doubt in the minds of others (literally their job).  The claim that she doesn't know who it was that assaulted her - even totally ignoring that this is like the 6th time you idiots were so sure about something and then changed the narrative on a dime and mere days ago you were among the chorus of people confident she was lying about the whole thing - isn't supported by the current evidence we have regardless of what you "think".

Calling people idiots and telling lies about their opinions is not making your case.

In many cases, accusers actually know who the perp is.

In this case, we don't even know if a crime was committed.

It's entirely possible Shannon ignored her advances and she is seeking revenge.

It's also possible a crime was committed and she misidentified the perp.

In her own words, she didn't see who fingered her. She believes it was Shannon. By implication, she doesn't actually know for sure.
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spark mandrill

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #192 on: May 17, 2024, 05:12:15 PM »
Quote from: illiniray on May 17, 2024, 04:51:41 PM
Calling people idiots and telling lies about their opinions is not making your case.

In many cases, accusers actually know who the perp is.

In this case, we don't even know if a crime was committed.

It's entirely possible Shannon ignored her advances and she is seeking revenge.

It's also possible a crime was committed and she misidentified the perp.

In her own words, she didn't see who fingered her. She believes it was Shannon. By implication, she doesn't actually know for sure.

In the same way that by implication, no accuser ever knows for sure.

You're trying to use evidence that doesn't support a claim to support it.

You said "in her own words".  Show me those words.  The police report says she stated "once she got close to him, the male started 'grabbing' on her and 'grabbing my butt' to pull her towards him".  She stated "he pulled her to him and nearly immediately placed his finger under her underwear and inserted it into her vagina".  She stated "because of how crowded the room was, and her position next to the male and the wall, she couldn't move or 'do anything' while this happened".  She stated "this also caught her by surprise and she was in shock."  She stated "the physical contact lasted only approximately 30 seconds before she was able to get away from the male and exit the room".  She stated "the male used one hand to pull her towards him".  She stated "the male's hand was around behind her buttocks and entered her vagina from behind".  She stated "she guessed the entire encounter was approximately one minute long".  She stated "the male's finger was inside her vagina approximately five to ten seconds".

The notion that "in her own words, she didn't see who fingered her" is something you drew from the motion filed by TSJ's attorneys.  None of the statements she made that are public stated any such thing.  The only place that language can be found from what I have seen is in a tweet from an Illini fan lawyer, and in TSJ's lawyer's motion.

Remember, these lawyers posted the DNA stuff to slut shame the accuser even though they knew the DNA found on the accuser didn't exclude their client.  They leaked the stuff about her Googling KU and Illinois athletes to make it seem like she was picking a target, even though Googling athletes to figure out who it was was perfectly reasonable for someone in the situation she claimed she was in.  Their literal job is to present things in a way that creates reasonable doubt, and that's what they're doing.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2024, 05:14:10 PM by spark mandrill »
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ThePAMan

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #193 on: May 17, 2024, 05:34:05 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on May 17, 2024, 04:34:21 PM
You'd be wasting time anyway.  It's just not a thing that happens, obviously.  You're supposedly a lawyer, right?  Would you support your client providing their evidence to a University Title IX board, even ignoring the police report being a non-starter, before they have presented it in an upcoming criminal trial?  Either as an accuser or as a defendant?

Your link about DeVos overturning the Obama era standard certainly doesn't support your claim.  But that makes sense, because I think we both know you are not going to find support for your claim.  The notion that a criminal defendant and their accuser are going to go to a university OSCR or Title IX board and provide their evidence and testimony before a criminal trial, or that a police department is going to provide their evidence and reporting to those boards, simply isn't reality.  No lawyer is going to allow their client to provide evidence that has not yet been presented in their criminal trial to a UIUC Title IX board, which is why you cannot find any evidence of that happening.  To put it on that board to determine their guilt based on "clear and convincing evidence" when, by necessity, they have little-to-none of the evidence that will be used at the actual criminal trial is not a realistic ask.  If there aren't criminal charges filed, that could be different - but the idea that a Title IX board needs to make a determination on someone's guilt BEFORE the case is tried in criminal court in order to suspend a college athlete is self-evidently absurd.

I had not looked for anything.  I just tried to find some statistics on overlapping criminal and student admin proceedings without luck. But I would never say "never" (like you said he would never play for Illinois again and were wrong) because schools are required to report sexual assault to the police....

https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/title-ix-rights-201104.html
(the whole document has since been withdrawn)
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A criminal investigation into allegations of sexual harassment or sexual violence does not relieve the school of its duty under Title IX to resolve complaints promptly and equitably.

Then there are lawyers advertising the need for representation because there can be overlapping proceedings...
https://pricebenowitz.com/maryland-criminal/student-defense-lawyer/title-ix/criminal-vs-campus-proceedings/
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It is true that schools have a requirement under Title IX to investigate and punish any supposed acts of sex discrimination that affect their students. At the same time, these schools have an obligation to report any incidents of apparent criminal activity to local law enforcement.

This could result in you facing simultaneous criminal charges and school disciplinary board hearings resulting from the same alleged behavior. It is extremely important that you understand the key differences in criminal proceedings vs. Maryland campus Title IX proceedings. Knowing how to defend yourself in each setting could serve to protect your academic future as well as your freedom.

Then there are quite a few cases where the feds are handling the mishandling of claims by colleges...seems odd that there are no overlapping proceedings given the number of cases....
https://projects.chronicle.com/titleix/

Then there are suggestions on how schools should handle overlapping proceedings
https://www.campussafetymagazine.com/safety/how-to-comply-with-the-dept-of-ed-s-title-ix-s-sexual-violence-guidance/3/

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A school, however, “may need to delay temporarily the fact-finding portion of a Title IX investigation while the police are gathering evidence,” writes Ali. “Once notified that the police department has completed its gathering of evidence (not the ultimate outcome of the investigation or the filing of any charges), the school must promptly resume and complete its fact-finding for the Title IX investigation.” OCR notes that this delay may normally range from three to 10 calendar days but may be longer in some cases depending upon the complexity of the matter. During this time, schools should notify victims of their rights to pursue disciplinary action or obtain other assistance.

Schools should also still take any interim action – such as a no-contact order or interim suspension of the accused – needed to protect the victim and or the rest of the campus community. As some of these steps may be outside the scope of law enforcement, it is critical that there be coordination with appropriate officials at the school who are empowered to take these steps. This would include working with student judicial officials and academic departments.

I know I could find no statistics, but saying it never happens, or will never happen, seems a bit much.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2024, 05:36:16 PM by ThePAMan »
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ThePAMan

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #194 on: May 17, 2024, 05:37:18 PM »
Quote from: illiniray on May 17, 2024, 04:51:41 PM
Calling people idiots and telling lies about their opinions is not making your case.

In many cases, accusers actually know who the perp is.

In this case, we don't even know if a crime was committed.

It's entirely possible Shannon ignored her advances and she is seeking revenge.

It's also possible a crime was committed and she misidentified the perp.

In her own words, she didn't see who fingered her. She believes it was Shannon. By implication, she doesn't actually know for sure.

It is as if you are unfamiliar with Spark's posting history....just ask Tempo!
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