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Poll

Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?

No
5 (35.7%)
Yes
9 (64.3%)

Total Members Voted: 14

Voting closed: January 26, 2024, 10:59:11 AM

Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?

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illiniray

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2024, 06:46:59 PM »
If your daughter's pre-school teacher had a pending felony rape charge against him, would you defend him on the grounds that he is innocent until proven guilty?  Would you be okay with him teaching your daughter?

Courts do flight risk and threat assessments when setting bail all the time. Or at they are supposed to.

There is nothing wrong with making risk and threat assessments when someone is charged with a crime.

The UI apparently found that Terrence Shannon posed no threat to his fellow students. The only potential risk they found was to the reputation of the University. The court found the risk to Shannon's reputation etc. outweighed that.

The potential risk an accused pedophile poses to children is clearly a different situation.
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Judge Judy

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2024, 06:48:02 PM »
Courts do flight risk and threat assessments when setting bail all the time. Or at they are supposed to.

There is nothing wrong with making risk and threat assessments when someone is charged with a crime.

The UI apparently found that Terrence Shannon posed no threat to his fellow students. The only potential risk they found was to the reputation of the University. The court found the risk to Shannon's reputation etc. outweighed that.

The potential risk an accused pedophile poses to children is clearly a different situation.

This.
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spark mandrill

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2024, 06:51:55 PM »
Isn't a 'risk and threat assessment' a violation of the presumption of innocence, as you seem to interpret it?  Who are you to say I'm a risk just because I was charged with a crime; what about my presumption of innocence?

Why would you presume your kid's teacher is guilty before he was convicted?

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illiniray

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2024, 07:10:52 PM »
Isn't a 'risk and threat assessment' a violation of the presumption of innocence, as you seem to interpret it?  Who are you to say I'm a risk just because I was charged with a crime; what about my presumption of innocence?

Why would you presume your kid's teacher is guilty before he was convicted?

The risk to the children would outweigh the loss of liberty and property rights of the accused teacher.

It's called balancing the equities, and is part of the reasoning Judge Lawless used.

The harm to TJ if he doesn't play and is eventually cleared outweighs the harm to UI if he plays and is found guilty.
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illinicalvin

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2024, 07:44:51 PM »
Pretrial release is a different thing than the presumption of innocence and neither really have anything to do with whether the U of I can, must, or should play a student-athlete with a pending felony charge, other than this only being an option because the Kansas court was not overly strict with bail and release conditions.

If you believe there should be minimal impact on a person's life in a pending charge because they're good at basketball I really hope you'd maintain that consistency with other criminal defendants. But there's no consistency with believing merely accused pedophiles pose some unreasonable risk compared to merely accused sexual batterers; that's picking and choosing which defendants are already guilty based on which one you like in the absence of any other relevant information.




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illiniray

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2024, 10:35:03 PM »
Balancing the equities.

The potential harm to children if their teacher turns out to be pedophile

Versus, the harm to the teacher if (s)he is reassigned duties and is eventually cleared.

That is not hard.

There is obvious a lot of unfairness in the system. Terrence Shannon is not a flight risk and is apparently not deemed a threat to others. He probably should have been released on his own recognizance. Would a white businessman been required to post bail or even arrested in the same circumstances?

Perhaps bail exists primarily to provide a pool of money to collect fines, court costs, and various fees?
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Custard

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2024, 10:46:46 PM »
IMO the comparison should not be to previous college players but rather pro players now that these guys are paid to play. The whole dynamic has changed and precedent was going to be set eventually.
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Lkdog

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2024, 10:58:58 PM »
IMO the comparison should not be to previous college players but rather pro players now that these guys are paid to play. The whole dynamic has changed and precedent was going to be set eventually.



So UI is setting a groundbreaking precedent?
TSj is now a regular Curt Flood for basketball players arrested for felonies.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2024, 11:00:51 PM by Lkdog »

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Lkdog

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2024, 11:15:05 PM »
The risk to the children would outweigh the loss of liberty and property rights of the accused teacher.

It's called balancing the equities, and is part of the reasoning Judge Lawless used.

The harm to TJ if he doesn't play and is eventually cleared outweighs the harm to UI if he plays and is found guilty.

Your argument is ludicrous. Him playing 14 games for UI means very little for his future ability to play in NBA.
That rests now entirely on him being cleared of his felony charges in time for the draft, or at a later time and being able to sign as a FA if/when it is resolved in his favor.

Many of the guys in first round of draft are not even playing in college or in this country. The NBA doesn't give a fuck if he plays at Illinois. They know who he is. He can do workouts for them.

They do care if he still might be convicted of a felony rape charge, or if he actually is convicted.

UI did not create that problem for TSj, nor is there really any action they can take that will help him.

And I am also guessing that his NIL deals this year were not being rescinded.

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Custard

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2024, 11:24:47 PM »
IMO the comparison should not be to previous college players but rather pro players now that these guys are paid to play. The whole dynamic has changed and precedent was going to be set eventually.



So UI is setting a groundbreaking precedent?
TSj is now a regular Curt Flood for basketball players arrested for felonies.

Seems to be. No one has been able to find a precedent yet.

But it really doesn’t matter how these things were handled years ago. When you create the Wild West environment that the transfer rule/NIL has (both precedent setting rulings themselves) there is an inevitable ripple effect.

This may be the first of many post-NIL legal challenges now that players demonstrably have a lot more to lose and institutions clearly haven’t caught up in terms of policy making.

The courts are deciding that college basketball isn’t a privileged extracurricular activity and is, in fact, a business. The playing field has been slowly and surely tilted more towards players ability to profit from their labor.

As part of that, I’d expect that college players end up being treated with more protections like NBA and NFL players in cases like this, rather than in the traditional university fashion.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2024, 11:26:29 PM by Custard »
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illiniray

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2024, 11:32:33 PM »
Your argument is ludicrous. Him playing 14 games for UI means very little for his future ability to play in NBA.
That rests now entirely on him being cleared of his felony charges in time for the draft, or at a later time and being able to sign as a FA if/when it is resolved in his favor.

Many of the guys in first round of draft are not even playing in college or in this country. The NBA doesn't give a fuck if he plays at Illinois. They know who he is. He can do workouts for them.

They do care if he still might be convicted of a felony rape charge, or if he actually is convicted.

UI did not create that problem for TSj, nor is there really any action they can take that will help him.

And I am also guessing that his NIL deals this year were not being rescinded.

You lose:

For the reasons stated herein, Plaintiff has not shown a likelihood of success on his
Title IX claim and is, therefore, not entitled to equitable relief as to Count I. As to Count
VI, the Plaintiff has established that he has clearly ascertainable rights that need protection and there is some likelihood of success on the merits[/b]. The Court further finds that Plaintiff has no adequate remedy at law and will suffer irreparable harm without an injunction. The potential harm to Plaintiff outweighs any harm to the University. The public interest is not harmed by granting injunctive relief to allow for additional procedural safeguards while he is presumed innocent of the criminal charges. Because
Plaintiff financially supports several family members, the Court will not require Plaintiff
to post bond. See Wayne Chemical, Inc. v. Columbus Agency Service Corp., 567 F.2d 692, 701
(7th Cir. 1977) (“Under appropriate circumstances bond may be excused,
notwithstanding the literal language of Rule 65(c)”). Based on this finding, the Court will not address Plaintiff’s remaining claims.

Therefore, Plaintiff Terrence Shannon, Jr.’s Verified Motion for a Preliminary Injunction (Doc. 10) is GRANTED.
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Custard

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2024, 11:33:52 PM »
Your argument is ludicrous. Him playing 14 games for UI means very little for his future ability to play in NBA.
That rests now entirely on him being cleared of his felony charges in time for the draft, or at a later time and being able to sign as a FA if/when it is resolved in his favor.

Many of the guys in first round of draft are not even playing in college or in this country. The NBA doesn't give a fuck if he plays at Illinois. They know who he is. He can do workouts for them.

They do care if he still might be convicted of a felony rape charge, or if he actually is convicted.

UI did not create that problem for TSj, nor is there really any action they can take that will help him.

And I am also guessing that his NIL deals this year were not being rescinded.

You say it’s ludicrous, yet a federal judge agrees with him. 

Until this happened he’d been playing himself up the draft chart because of his play on the court for Illinois. It plummeted as a result of the charges. It was a key part of what the judge used to side with Shannon.

Shannon’s attorneys presented enough evidence to a federal judge to convince that judge that his NIL earnings were in serious jeopardy as a result of the suspension. I’d wager you have zero knowledge of his NIL contract and the stipulations that govern his income.

I get what you’re trying to say, but think this post was a bit of a miss.
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Custard

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2024, 12:17:34 AM »
Guess I never really answered the question other than in the poll but it does feel wrong for him to be playing. I’d have preferred to wait a game or two and see if anything developed that may have changed things. Then, if not, bring him back in.

Was watching YouTube video with Parrish and such and he came down pretty hard on playing him today. I mostly agreed with his outside perspective.

The other dude said based on their actions either the UI admin is insanely idiotic or they firmly believe he’ll be found not guilty of these charges. Which I also agree with.

The university has acted in a manner that indicated they believe he’ll be cleared. With Whitman’s law background, the current political climate, and being the flagship institution of a large blue state, it’s really hard to believe they’d be so brazen if they didn’t think this was going to end well for Illinois and TSJ.

We’ll see.
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Lkdog

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2024, 01:50:30 AM »
You say it’s ludicrous, yet a federal judge agrees with him. 

Until this happened he’d been playing himself up the draft chart because of his play on the court for Illinois. It plummeted as a result of the charges. It was a key part of what the judge used to side with Shannon.

Shannon’s attorneys presented enough evidence to a federal judge to convince that judge that his NIL earnings were in serious jeopardy as a result of the suspension. I’d wager you have zero knowledge of his NIL contract and the stipulations that govern his income.

I get what you’re trying to say, but think this post was a bit of a miss.

Its debatable.
I do not think it prevents the UI from revisting the issue or appealing the ruling. They will not as they appear to be unwilling to take a now embarrassing difficult path as their incompetency or errors were part of the TRO rationale, as well as looking punitive now, so will ride this out at this point and can conveniently blame the judge. They are hoping to get through a few news cycles past this, and hope for no protests by campus groups and at away venues, and limited media challenges.

I would be interested to know what you think the right thing is to do.

Not what has transpired in a perceived vacuum of standards now - one where core university oversight can be overuled now in the absence of new established rules involving the claimed multiple $ interests.

Florida just recently dismissed their arrested felon player last year before he was apparently convicted. He ended up having the felonies reduced to misdemeanors in July.

TSj draft status has plummeted more IMO because he might end up being convicted of a felony- not because he isn't playing a few games in a development league like the Big Ten with about five guys out of 200 who might actually play in the NBA someday.Most of these games are like playing the Washington Generals for him.

It is totally unlikely to set a precedent that all college programs will be bound to follow for athletes arrested for felonies anymore than there would ever be any new settled law for you or your employees to be protected from being suspended or fired upon an arrest for felony rape or any other behavior seen as detrimental to your firm.
 
If what you believe this will lead to- a formal NCAA Athlete Players Union with a contract with NCAA Institutions - players will not be immune from consequences for all kinds of behaviors. This ill advised TRO (IMO) was naively made in a vacuum of process and transition and speculation that the judge accepted. As I have already noted Podz was a nobody and the next summer a millionaire in the NBA. They all could make this argument now, however farfetched.
Ever really heard of Markuis Nowell before last March? He got a two way and even that has big bucks.  The judge can no more accurately predict where a TSj is going to be drafted than a Podz a year out but they bought it. And no, nobody knows the stipulations of his NIL either but I am guessing he is doing OK. 

And of course where does one draw the line now for any arrested athletes awaiting trial? They all get NIL and can claim aspirations for more NIL and pro careers afterwards.
 
In the NBA Leonard was suspended and fined for racial slurs. Morant was suspended twice without pay for flashing a gun on social media. Neither of those acts even involved a criminal arrest.
A full blown NCAA institution and Players Union Agreement contract agreement will have similar elements for any behavior detrimental to the institutions and NCAA.
A felony arrest has always been a behavior that institutions acted upon to suspend an athlete until resolution, and will do so in the future when this is all formalized as you predict. You are probably right.

I would welcome that as this is a definite negative for UI and the program, and to some, at least, an institutional supported affront to true victims of sexual assault. I do reserve judgement as to whether this alleged victim
will be found as having been assaulted as defined by law but the process will have to get played out. 

TSj will get his day in court and I do hope it is resolved in his favor as he does seem like a great kid, but this isn't the right stance for UI or the program IMO. Others obviously disagree.
It all sucks but I am sure if he is exonerated he will find his way onto a roster, hopefully in time for the draft or as FA next year.

 
There will be rules and ability to suspend for acts detrimental to the NCAA and school when there is a Collective Bargaining Agreement. This will be one of them.
There is no winner here unfortunately.

I do appreciate your thoughtful and rational approach to this.
None of this is normal.




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ThePAMan

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2024, 07:44:46 AM »
Guess I never really answered the question other than in the poll but it does feel wrong for him to be playing. I’d have preferred to wait a game or two and see if anything developed that may have changed things. Then, if not, bring him back in.

Was watching YouTube video with Parrish and such and he came down pretty hard on playing him today. I mostly agreed with his outside perspective.

The other dude said based on their actions either the UI admin is insanely idiotic or they firmly believe he’ll be found not guilty of these charges. Which I also agree with.

The university has acted in a manner that indicated they believe he’ll be cleared. With Whitman’s law background, the current political climate, and being the flagship institution of a large blue state, it’s really hard to believe they’d be so brazen if they didn’t think this was going to end well for Illinois and TSJ.

We’ll see.

LOL. Love that you casually dismiss by omission that they are incompetent despite the evidence.

For a guy who is cynical and dismissive of politicians and those in postions of power of all stripes, maybe deservedly so, you sure drink the DIA kool-aid.

Yeah, Guenther Jr. was playing 4 D Chess here. Given the inherent  difficulties in investigating this particular case, the odds are he never would have been suspended at all if they had just followed the rules.
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