IlliniHQ 2
General Category => Fighting Illini Basketball Forum => Topic started by: Somewhere in Mn on March 02, 2023, 06:22:25 AM
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6pm on the ESPN with Kevin Brown and Seth Greenberg, oh boy.
Michigan is 2nd best in conference play in 3 pt % defense.
We're dead last in 3 pt fg percentage.
Michigan has better numbers in about everything.
I'm assuming Epps will refuse to enter the game. Again.
We're favored, and looking at the possibility of a 10 seed without a win.
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Is Mayer going to play?
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think i'll watch the missouri valley game instead
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Seth Greenberg is terrible I may have to watch this one on mute lol
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We're favored, and looking at the possibility of a 10 seed without a win.
If we lose out, we will stand at 19-13 overall and 10-11. With a Q1 record near 3-12. At that metric we could very well be one of the last 4 in. Play-in game.
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Hawkins is going to have to ball out today on both sides of the court if we're winning this game.
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Looks like a lot of empty seats
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This whole being down early at home thing kinda sucks.
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Ugly start. No energy on defense. Shannon has his head up his ass everytime he has touched ball.
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Just great. Hawkins goes to the point ?
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Just great. Hawkins goes to the point ?
He sits out there at 3 point line most of the time .
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Mayer gets hit on a 3 and the ref T's him up for flopping? Yeah right.
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Just take good shots and don't turn it over.
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Just take good shots and don't turn it over.
It seemed like a good idea, but 2 brick 3s and a TO later. Lol.
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Just take good shots and don't turn it over.
They have no idea why you would propose that.
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They have no idea why you would propose that.
Because Michigan doesn't seem to want to work too hard on defense ?
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Good defense to close out the half. Harris and Roger's playing with some serious physicality as freshman.
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Good defense to close out the half. Harris and Roger's playing with some serious physicality as freshman.
Wichigan with too many dribble drives to the hoop early in the half but that seemed to get slowed down later on. Rogers a tough kid.
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IMO we should be starting Harris, TSJ, Rogers, Hawkins, and Dainja and using Mayer as a 6th man.
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Dainja....come on
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RJ!
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Get to the hoop with authority
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RJ!
Good things can happen when you drive the ball to the hoop.
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Good things can happen when you drive the ball to the hoop.
By numerous of our players this half. Stop settling for 3’s and good things happen they see.
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Just hope it sticks going forward.
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Just 11 of the 46 shots have been 3's.
Keep this up.
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Squeaky sure called it on Rodgers. Lol
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By numerous of our players this half. Stop settling for 3’s and good things happen they see.
Agree, quit wanting to shoot 3s all the time. Plus get fouls on drives.
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Bufkin should’ve been called for the offensive foul but instead gets bailed out. Then he goes on his own run. Fuck that call on RJ. Complete game changer of momentum.
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Need to finish this. Keep attacking the rim
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The refs fucked us on the goaltending and the missed basket interference but we damn sure didn't execute in the final minute.
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7 point lead and don't get another point. Lucky to get OT.
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The refs fucked us on the goaltending and the missed basket interference but we damn sure didn't execute in the final minute.
An out of bounds call too
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An out of bounds call too
Yeah that too.
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Yeah let's go ahead and miss our free shots now.
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Misses both FT
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Uhhhh, traveling.
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No travel call on Dickinson. We all know who the refs want in the tournament.
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Yeah that too.
And now a Dickinson travel ?
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This is fucking criminal of these refs. Totally fucking us.
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Hard to believe that Dickinson doesn't have 50 points.
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Has Dainja played this half ?
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Finally they call Dickinson for extending the arm
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Elevator / shaft
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Wow. I thought our goose was cooked a couple minutes ago
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Just throw it up at the rim. Fuck. We had that.
Can't miss a game winning free shot either.
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Goodness gracious.
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This is fucking criminal of these refs. Totally fucking us.
Shocked that Courtney Greene is not reffing this crap.
Miracle this is going to the 2nd OT
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Man this is wild
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Nice flop Hunter.
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These fuckin refs are tryin!
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Has Dainja played this half ?
Don't think so. And Hawkins can not stop Dickinson. ???
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Best 3 we've missed all year. Make these
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Do we foul before they shoot a three?
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20,wins. Squeaky is such a clown.
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Despite the refs having the hots for Michigan getting in the tourney, we prevail.
Douchebag Dickinson still 0-fer against us. Suck it.
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HÙGE W. HUGE.
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Douchebag Dickinson still 0-fer against us. Suck it.
Is that right?
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Is that right?
Sure is. He's never beaten us. Just like his coach has never beat Underwood.
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We shoot 5-18 from 3 for the game. That's ok.
We shoot 6 of the 18 in OT, making 1.
Why ?
Huge win.
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20,wins. Squeaky is such a clown.
Squeaky will dismiss tonight as "Illinois only won because Baker airballed a wide open three."
Now that being said, that's the one look you're not supposed to give up there lol. Fatigue may have been a factor lucky for us.
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Missed the second half and ot and ot. What did I miss
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Missed the second half and ot and ot. What did I miss
https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/playbyplay/_/gameId/401484984
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Missed the second half and ot and ot. What did I miss
A lot of stress.
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Missed the second half and ot and ot. What did I miss
Referee shitshow
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Missed the second half and ot and ot. What did I miss
1, maybe 2, heart attacks.
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Squeaky will dismiss tonight as "Illinois only won because Baker airballed a wide open three."
Now that being said, that's the one look you're not supposed to give up there lol. Fatigue may have been a factor lucky for us.
It was a great look. Cant believe he airballed ot.
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Missed the second half and ot and ot. What did I miss
Free shots
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Squeaky sure called it on Rodgers. Lol
I only stopped over here tonight to make sure people were making fun of Truth about Rodgers.
Truth's truly one of the dumbest motherfuckers to ever walk the Earth.
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Great win. Took Michigan's haymaker. Dickerson 31pts. 16 rebs. And still wasn't enough. RJ and Roger's had their best all around games of their career s. Imo.
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Hunter Dickinson and Juwan Howard still winless against Illinois...
ahahahahaha
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Good gritty win that should secure us in the tourney free of play-in concerns. Love how Rogers is developing. Michigan has to be wondering where the program is going at this point because that team kind of sucks after the top 2-3 guys.
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Saw this on reddit lmao
https://preview.redd.it/yvdl8q6zchla1.png?width=1223&format=png&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=302a1fe77ce9c33e32ebe422e8400d30a82386ad
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Missed the second half and ot and ot. What did I miss
A really good F*%kin game is all....bout time BU figured out that aggression and 2's can beat the hell outta a sh*t ton of 3's all day. If we had played this game the way we played most of the year, we would have lost by 20 at least. Thank the Basketball god's we did not.
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We've had some awesome come from behind wins this season. Can't recall last time we've had that many. Also some head scratching losses.
But without Epps and obviously Skye to be able to play a big lineup and win is huge. Gives them a different dimension heading into post season. Still need good guard play though, hopefully Epps is okay and happy to see RJ have a solid game.
Maybe they can find a way out of a dreaded 7-10 seed.
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From bballnet.com and before we sent Michigan back to Ann Arbor with the L.
(https://i.ibb.co/mHX08D5/Screenshot-20230303-085305.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MRGf62k)
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Our net actually went up from 36 to 34 last night. But our Q1 record worsened. 2-9 vs. Q1. 7-1 vs. Q2.
https://bracketologists.com/team/illinois-fighting-illini (https://bracketologists.com/team/illinois-fighting-illini)
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We've had some awesome come from behind wins this season. Can't recall last time we've had that many. Also some head scratching losses.
But without Epps and obviously Skye to be able to play a big lineup and win is huge. Gives them a different dimension heading into post season. Still need good guard play though, hopefully Epps is okay and happy to see RJ have a solid game.
Maybe they can find a way out of a dreaded 7-10 seed.
There is as much a chance of this staying out of this happeing (7-10 seed), as there is that we won't have at least 2 more spots open up at the end of the season.
In other words both are inevitable.
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That game gave me a heart attack. But I am glad we defeated SCUM.
Thanks to the tOSU loss, I still think we are sitting at an 8/9 seed, unless we beat Purdon't.
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There is as much a chance of this staying out of this happeing (7-10 seed), as there is that we won't have at least 2 more spots open up at the end of the season.
In other words both are inevitable.
Beat Purdue and make it to Sunday of the BTT surely gets us there.
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To the people saying HUGE WIN:
The team beat a bubble team. At home. Blew multiple leads along the way.
But they did show the ounce of fight that has been missing most of the conference season. Well, except in the wins against shitty Minnesota and Nebraska. And with players missing and useless (Dainja, again), it ended up being a good showing.
But in the end, it's still a win over a bubble team.
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better than a loss 🤷♂️
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Michigan had won 6 of their last 8 and is 2nd in the big ten in defensive efficiency. It was a big win. It was one we had to have for sure.
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People can shit on the big ten all they want, but there have been some very fun games to watch this year. More so than other seasons I can remember recently, now whether that translates into a positive showing in the NCAA tournament remains to be seen.
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To the people saying HUGE WIN:
The team beat a bubble team. At home. Blew multiple leads along the way.
But they did show the ounce of fight that has been missing most of the conference season. Well, except in the wins against shitty Minnesota and Nebraska. And with players missing and useless (Dainja, again), it ended up being a good showing.
But in the end, it's still a win over a bubble team.
A very solid well played for the most part over the #2 defensive team (effecient wise) and on a roll....the reason it was huge was it was home/senior night, but more importantly a seed changer possibly.
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Michigan had won 6 of their last 8 and is 2nd in the big ten in defensive efficiency. It was a big win. It was one we had to have for sure.
Possibly true, but the selection committee won't give a rat's ass about most of it, aside from the non-L. It's a win against a bubble team.
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A very solid well played for the most part over the #2 defensive team (effecient wise) and on a roll....the reason it was huge was it was home/senior night, but more importantly a seed changer possibly.
A seed-changer, from 9 to 8. Should we fly the banner now?
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A seed-changer, from 9 to 8. Should we fly the banner now?
honestly going from being the second oldest by age team in the ncaa to the second youngest and that we're making the tourney at all is a pretty good season IMO
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honestly going from being the second oldest by age team in the ncaa to the second youngest and that we're making the tourney at all is a pretty good season IMO
So we've lowered the annual bar from SWEET SIXTEEN!!! to this? Weber and Groce made the tournament.
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I would add that according to Bracket Matrix, if Illinois wins its 8/9 game against Florida Atlantic, it can then get its ass kicked by Houston in the second round again. Yay!
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So we've lowered the annual bar from SWEET SIXTEEN!!! to this? Weber and Groce made the tournament.
I would consider a sweet 16 or better a great season
I wouldn't expect to make it every year, even most Kansas or Duke or UNC fans probably wouldn't even say that
The tournament is a complete crap shoot and its all about match ups if you're a great team you can adjust and make the second weekend usually
A team with its two oldest and most experienced players being one year transfers probably ain't gonna get the job done unless we start smokin from 3 point land or draw two teams playing like shit
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I would consider a sweet 16 or better a great season
I wouldn't expect to make it every year, even most Kansas or Duke or UNC fans probably wouldn't even say that
The tournament is a complete crap shoot and its all about match ups if you're a great team you can adjust and make the second weekend usually
A team with its two oldest and most experienced players being one year transfers probably ain't gonna get the job done unless we start smokin from 3 point land or draw two teams playing like shit
We are unfortunately NOT a great team and most of time do not make adjustments as needed....that spells disaster come March. My gut tells me IF, IF we can win our first one, we take 1 more, if we don't flame out in the first game and that is a B1G IF. We play a gameplan like Fichigan, then we can win 2 if not probably out first rd.
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So we've lowered the annual bar from SWEET SIXTEEN!!! to this? Weber and Groce made the tournament.
Did they make it three years in a row with their players? IDRTEH
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Groce never made a tournament here. Not even with 7 seasons of Tracy Abrams.
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Groce never made a tournament here. Not even with 7 seasons of Tracy Abrams.
Did I dream his loss to Miami in The Tourney his first year and the implementation of video replay afterwards? Or is there another tourney you are discussing?
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I apparently repressed that memory.
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Groce never made a tournament here. Not even with 7 seasons of Tracy Abrams.
He made it his first year. Never again.
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I apparently repressed that memory.
Show us on the action figure where the bald man touched you.
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Show us on the action figure where the bald man touched you.
Probably trotting out this lineup for Big Ten season:
Pos. Starting 5 Bench 1
F/C Michael Finke Maverick Morgan
G/F Malcolm Hill D.J. Williams
SG Kendrick Nunn Alex Austin
SG Aaron Jordan Jalen Coleman-Lands
PG Jaylon Tate Khalid Lewis
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Probably trotting out this lineup for Big Ten season:
Pos. Starting 5 Bench 1
F/C Michael Finke Maverick Morgan
G/F Malcolm Hill D.J. Williams
SG Kendrick Nunn Alex Austin
SG Aaron Jordan Jalen Coleman-Lands
PG Jaylon Tate Khalid Lewis
Ugh.
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Probably trotting out this lineup for Big Ten season:
Pos. Starting 5 Bench 1
F/C Michael Finke Maverick Morgan
G/F Malcolm Hill D.J. Williams
SG Kendrick Nunn Alex Austin
SG Aaron Jordan Jalen Coleman-Lands
PG Jaylon Tate Khalid Lewis
Nunn and Hill were ballers the rest, yeah...
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So we've lowered the annual bar from SWEET SIXTEEN!!! to this? Weber and Groce made the tournament.
At what point was the annual bar 'SWEET SIXTEEN!!!' ever in our program's history?
I mean I suppose maybe it was the expectation for some, but we've never met it. We got four Final Fours in the late 40's/early 50's. We made three S16's in 5 years in the early 80's. We made 4 in 5 years in the early 2000's.
Three times in 70 years we've made more than one S16 in a 5 year span, one of which was in the Bill Russell college era.
Obviously we want to be that, but the way to be that is to consistently have good teams, consistently get into the tournament with favored seeds, not have big tournament droughts. Be able to build and rebuild. Literally every great coach has letdown tournament years like the year we lost to Loyola, which is really the only notable black mark on Underwood's tourney resume (and yes, it was a big one).
I think some of those questions are still open about Underwood for sure, but the number of great coaches who it would've been a mistake to fire because they didn't make a sweet 16 in their first 5-6 six years at the program is high. The tournament is fickle, but keep getting there with high seeds and you will break through.
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Nunn and Hill were ballers the rest, yeah...
We whiffed on so many point guards in that era. Demetrius Jackson, London Perrantes, Q Snider (lol), Brunson.
As an aside, Larry Austin is still drawing a paycheck playing basketball as is Glynn Watson, who I still can't believe we didn't offer unless they flat-out told us no because of how Demetri was treated.
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Groce was a good dude but he couldn't land a PG or big to save his life.
He was a hit with the moms though.
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I apparently repressed that memory.
Sure hope you didn't repress this one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_SpPpwWgHs
10 years ago. Man where does the time go? I was still lurking on the old HQ back then.
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We whiffed on so many point guards in that era. Demetrius Jackson, London Perrantes, Q Snider (lol), Brunson.
As an aside, Larry Austin is still drawing a paycheck playing basketball as is Glynn Watson, who I still can't believe we didn't offer unless they flat-out told us no because of how Demetri was treated.
Don’t believe we were ever interested in Fred Van Vleet, either. I’m sure there are others, I just can’t remember their names anymore.
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At what point was the annual bar 'SWEET SIXTEEN!!!' ever in our program's history?
I mean I suppose maybe it was the expectation for some, but we've never met it. We got four Final Fours in the late 40's/early 50's. We made three S16's in 5 years in the early 80's. We made 4 in 5 years in the early 2000's.
Three times in 70 years we've made more than one S16 in a 5 year span, one of which was in the Bill Russell college era.
Obviously we want to be that, but the way to be that is to consistently have good teams, consistently get into the tournament with favored seeds, not have big tournament droughts. Be able to build and rebuild. Literally every great coach has letdown tournament years like the year we lost to Loyola, which is really the only notable black mark on Underwood's tourney resume (and yes, it was a big one).
I think some of those questions are still open about Underwood for sure, but the number of great coaches who would've been fired because they didn't make a sweet 16 in their first 5-6 six years at the program is high. The tournament is fickle, but keep getting there with high seeds and you will break through.
I'd largely agree with this. In the modern B1G our goal should be top half + making the tournament regularly and breaking through every few years. You can count on one hand the number of programs and coaches who've done better than that in the B1G the last 25 years, and a few of those had situations that aren't happening again (like Matta's recruitment at OSU or Bo Ryan lucking into multiple low-star NBA-level players for his offense).
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We’ve flirted with “S16 expectation” status a few times, but were fairly quickly knocked off our perch every time.
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Can't see Sweet 16 run any time soon.
Pretty pathetic.
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At what point was the annual bar 'SWEET SIXTEEN!!!' ever in our program's history?
I mean I suppose maybe it was the expectation for some, but we've never met it. We got four Final Fours in the late 40's/early 50's. We made three S16's in 5 years in the early 80's. We made 4 in 5 years in the early 2000's.
Three times in 70 years we've made more than one S16 in a 5 year span, one of which was in the Bill Russell college era.
Obviously we want to be that, but the way to be that is to consistently have good teams, consistently get into the tournament with favored seeds, not have big tournament droughts. Be able to build and rebuild. Literally every great coach has letdown tournament years like the year we lost to Loyola, which is really the only notable black mark on Underwood's tourney resume (and yes, it was a big one).
I think some of those questions are still open about Underwood for sure, but the number of great coaches who it would've been a mistake to fire because they didn't make a sweet 16 in their first 5-6 six years at the program is high. The tournament is fickle, but keep getting there with high seeds and you will break through.
Except it WAS an annual expectation at the old incarnation of the site.
In regard to the bold portion: Since 2004-05, the program has never advanced past the first weekend. The tournament wins have been over giants like Air Force, Drexel, Chattanooga (narrowly), a mediocre UNLV, and Colora-doh.
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I'd largely agree with this. In the modern B1G our goal should be top half + making the tournament regularly and breaking through every few years. You can count on one hand the number of programs and coaches who've done better than that in the B1G the last 25 years, and a few of those had situations that aren't happening again (like Matta's recruitment at OSU or Bo Ryan lucking into multiple low-star NBA-level players for his offense).
This is silly. Wisconsin got to the championship game and defeated Kentucky.
Ohio State got to a title game. Michigan St. USED to guard hard and make Final Fours. The floating Scum pool advanced and lost to a Louisville team that had to vacate all of its wins.
The only true "lucky" run I recall is Indiana in 2002.
The only thing making Illinois look less ridiculous is that Iowa and Purdue have collapsed multiple times.
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Groce was a good dude but he couldn't land a PG or big to save his life.
He was a hit with the moms though.
I almost literally bumped into him once. He seemed quite agitated about something.
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This is silly. Wisconsin got to the championship game and defeated Kentucky.
Ohio State got to a title game. Michigan St. USED to guard hard and make Final Fours. The floating Scum pool advanced and lost to a Louisville team that had to vacate all of its wins.
The only true "lucky" run I recall is Indiana in 2002.
The only thing making Illinois look less ridiculous is that Iowa and Purdue have collapsed multiple times.
Seems like about a handful
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In regard to the bold portion: Since 2004-05, the program has never advanced past the first weekend. The tournament wins have been over giants like Air Force, Drexel, Chattanooga (narrowly), a mediocre UNLV, and Colora-doh.
Also since 04-05, we haven't made three straight tourneys (until this year, most likely, and only because of COVID), and only made 3/4 once (that run included Dee's senior year). We've been a favored seed in the first round 5 times in that span and a top-4 seed three times (Dee's senior year, and the last two years).
Again, make the tourney every year, usually with a favored seed, and you'll break through. That hasn't been how the last 20 years of Illinois basketball have looked overall, but it's kind of what the last ~4 years have looked like.
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Seems like about a handful
Sigh. Yes, only 6 of the 11/12/14 teams made it to the final game of the tournament. Also, if we go back 25 years, then we can include another Final Four for Ohio St. and a title for Michigan St. And another Final Four for both Wisconsin and Michigan St.
Again, the original take was silly.
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remember when we blew the 2006 game against Washington, we were up 9 with 6:48 left and Washington went on a 18-6 run
or 2007 against Va Tech, up 10 with 4:29 left and Va Tech goes on a 12-0 run
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remember when we blew the 2006 game against Washington, we were up 9 with 6:48 left and Washington went on a 18-6 run
or 2007 against Va Tech, up 10 with 4:29 left and Va Tech goes on a 12-0 run
Free shots were an issue against Va Tech if I recall accurately
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remember when we blew the 2006 game against Washington, we were up 9 with 6:48 left and Washington went on a 18-6 run
or 2007 against Va Tech, up 10 with 4:29 left and Va Tech goes on a 12-0 run
The Washington game is particularly galling. I had just walked in the door from work, at about the high point you mention. Then I realized I had to go back for something. On the way there, a train blocks the crossing for several minutes. By the time I got what I needed and walked back in the door, Illinois had lost the game.
But hey, we beat the life out of Air Force!
The next year was equally spectacular. Near the end, Tech fouled Brian Randle (I think) or some other bricklayer at the FT line. The announcers, clearly clueless about the team, were astonished that VT FOULED! Um, that was the intention. Of course, the Illinois player clanged the first shot, and the demise continued.
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Again, the original take was silly.
The take is that no B1G school is in a position to expect the Sweet 16 every year with college basketball as it currently exists. That's not "silly." It's an opinion bordering on factual reality.
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The take is that no B1G school is in a position to expect the Sweet 16 every year with college basketball as it currently exists. That's not "silly." It's an opinion bordering on factual reality.
Factual reality for Illinois. And the chokers like Iowa.
Once again, the fan base expected Sweet Sixteens. And that's a big reason why Weber and Groce didn't last. And part of why Henson retired when he did, and part of why Kruger left for the NBA.
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remember when we blew the 2006 game against Washington, we were up 9 with 6:48 left and Washington went on a 18-6 run
or 2007 against Va Tech, up 10 with 4:29 left and Va Tech goes on a 12-0 run
2006 Washington was ridiculous. Augustine was kicking their butts on offense, had a lead, and then stopped feeding him the ball. Such a brilliant move by the dumb coach. Results got him more time to get custards around Chambana.
2007 VT even dumber.
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2006 Washington was ridiculous. Augustine was kicking their butts on offense, had a lead, and then stopped feeding him the ball. Such a brilliant move by the dumb coach. Results got him more time to get custards around Chambana.
2007 VT even dumber.
The other problem against Washington was we couldn't stop the guard, Brandon Roy (IIRC). Don't remember who was trying to guard him and failing.
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That Washington game was on my 25th birthday. My buddies took me to the bar to watch the game. I got all pissed off at the ending and got hammered before it was even dark. What I didn’t know was that they were running a diversion because my girlfriend at the time was throwing me a surprise birthday party at my Aunt and Uncle’s house later on. So they end up bringing me to the party absolutely shitfaced and my whole family and a bunch of friends were there. Fuck I had forgotten all about that awful day until just now.
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The other problem against Washington was we couldn't stop the guard, Brandon Roy (IIRC). Don't remember who was trying to guard him and failing.
Yes, Brandon Roy. And yes, big time fail at stopping him. Wasn't Dee trying to guard him, Dee was too small to guard him. He made it to the NBA but knee problems derailed his career if I remember correctly.
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Factual reality for Illinois. And the chokers like Iowa.
Once again, the fan base expected Sweet Sixteens. And that's a big reason why Weber and Groce didn't last. And part of why Henson retired when he did, and part of why Kruger left for the NBA.
And that's why these other Big Ten teams make the Sweet 16 every year? Like MSU (one S16 in the last 7 years), OSU (no S16's in the last 10 years), Indiana (one S16 in the last 9 years)?
Maybe the fan base expected them - based on our program's history, which is really good by the way, expecting S16's yearly is a good way to cycle through coaches every three or four years. Maybe that's what dumbass fans "expected", but Illinois has simply never been that. Very, very few programs have.
I think a lot of that unrealistic expectation is a group of fans who were a certain impressionable age in the early 2000's, one of the few 5-year stretches in our history where we made more than one S16. They set their expectations for life based on that unusually good stretch, and their expectations stopped being realistic very quickly. So now rather that recognizing that it's super rare for a program to be a legit S16 team/contender every single year, they have decided that the 350 or so schools for who that isn't the case just suck.
The funny part is knowing our idiot fans well enough to know if we make the S16 this year it'll be "yeah but they made a lucky run, they didn't even compete for the conference title" or "wake me up when he makes an E8 or F4".
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And that's why these other Big Ten teams make the Sweet 16 every year? Like MSU (one S16 in the last 7 years), OSU (no S16's in the last 10 years), Indiana (one S16 in the last 9 years)?
Maybe the fan base expected them - based on our program's history, which is really good by the way, expecting S16's yearly is a good way to cycle through coaches every three or four years. Maybe that's what dumbass fans "expected", but Illinois has simply never been that. Very, very few programs have.
I think a lot of that unrealistic expectation is a group of fans who were a certain impressionable age in the early 2000's, one of the few 5-year stretches in our history where we made more than one S16. They set their expectations for life based on that unusually good stretch, and their expectations stopped being realistic very quickly. So now rather that recognizing that it's super rare for a program to be a legit S16 team/contender every single year, they have decided that the 350 or so schools for who that isn't the case just suck.
The funny part is knowing our idiot fans well enough to know if we make the S16 this year it'll be "yeah but they made a lucky run, they didn't even compete for the conference title" or "wake me up when he makes an E8 or F4".
One of the early posts specified the last 25 years. If you narrow it to the last 7-10, then the results will be different. (Although you'd still have Final Fours with Wisconsin, Michigan St., Michigan, etc., but the "(grunt) BIG TEN SUCX! (fart)" people have a strong life force.)
And yeah, higher expectations do lead to cycling through coaches. I don't like that, either, but we can never again have another situation like with Guenther where the AD proclaims he doesn't want to hire another coach, and then the expectations are floor-level.
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One of the early posts specified the last 25 years. If you narrow it to the last 7-10, then the results will be different. (Although you'd still have Final Fours with Wisconsin, Michigan St., Michigan, etc., but the "(grunt) BIG TEN SUCX! (fart)" people have a strong life force.)
And yeah, higher expectations do lead to cycling through coaches. I don't like that, either, but we can never again have another situation like with Guenther where the AD proclaims he doesn't want to hire another coach, and then the expectations are floor-level.
Well, the claim was expecting a S16 every year. That obviously isn’t realistic for anyone in our league or I figure one of these HOF coaches would’ve done it.
And cycling through coaches is a good way to ensure you never have a consistent team.
It’s a loser’s game.
Get into the tournament every year, most years with a favored seed and you’ll have tournament success. Fire the guys who build you into that quickly for not having tournament success and you will be starting over constantly.
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The problem here is, the goalposts keep moving. First it's not an annual goal, but then the time frame moves from the last 25 years to the last few.
Obviously if you just look at the last few seasons, you don't have Big Ten teams advancing consistently. But you don't have to go back to the Nichi era to see a time when things were different.
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Yes, Brandon Roy. And yes, big time fail at stopping him. Wasn't Dee trying to guard him, Dee was too small to guard him. He made it to the NBA but knee problems derailed his career if I remember correctly.
I thought Dee Brown was trying to guard him. But I was not sure if that was correct. As mentioned earlier, I had to work during part of the game and then never could get back to see much of it on TV.
Knee issues were the undoing of Roy in the NBA.
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looked at our tourney history, we've gotten past the 2nd rd 4 times in last 33 years
19 appearances
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looked at our tourney history, we've gotten past the 2nd rd 4 times in last 33 years
19 appearances
With some really dumb losses. The 1990 team wasn't comparable to the previous year, but losing to Dayton in the first round was dumb. Then probation.
I was at the 1995 game where Illinois lost to Tulsa. That actually was a good effort, but they didn't guard hard, particularly against Shea Seals.
The 1997-98 team was good but was outmatched against Maryland.
The 1999-2000 team got blitzed by Florida, which made it to the title game.
I think the losses in 2002 and 2003 were to good Kansas and Notre Dame teams.
The dismal era started in 2006.
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With some really dumb losses. The 1990 team wasn't comparable to the previous year, but losing to Dayton in the first round was dumb. Then probation.
I was at the 1995 game where Illinois lost to Tulsa. That actually was a good effort, but they didn't guard hard, particularly against Shea Seals.
The 1997-98 team was good but was outmatched against Maryland.
The 1999-2000 team got blitzed by Florida, which made it to the title game.
I think the losses in 2002 and 2003 were to good Kansas and Notre Dame teams.
The dismal era started in 2006.
The 97 Chattanooga lost hurt to since the sweet 16 opponent would have been 10 seeded Providence though they gave Zona a run for their money in elite 8
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The 97 Chattanooga lost hurt to since the sweet 16 opponent would have been 10 seeded Providence though they gave Zona a run for their money in elite 8
I was in Charlotte for the first game that year. Southern Cal was not a good team and probably should not have been in the tournament. I also saw Chattanooga knock out Georgia, and I remember thinking they were good for a 14 seed, not knowing what would happen next. Couldn't stay for the next round, though.
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I thought Dee Brown was trying to guard him. But I was not sure if that was correct. As mentioned earlier, I had to work during part of the game and then never could get back to see much of it on TV.
Knee issues were the undoing of Roy in the NBA.
Maybe Dee was guarding him, along with McBride.
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or 2007 against Va Tech, up 10 with 4:29 left and Va Tech goes on a 12-0 run
And so began our rapid descent into the basketball abyss. Tenn St, 38-33, Utah, Bradley, 2012 Nebraska, UIC...oh don't even get me started on UIC. We should have forfeited our spot in that year's tourney based on that loss alone.
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I can remember where I was at and what I was doing for each of those godawful losses. Don’t forget the loss to Indiana when they barely had any D1 caliber players on their roster. Aka, the game where I was officially done, again, with Bruce Weber. That blowout at home against Dayton in the NIT was pretty sweet too. That was also on my birthday.
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I can remember where I was at and what I was doing for each of those godawful losses. Don’t forget the loss to Indiana when they barely had any D1 caliber players on their roster. Aka, the game where I was officially done, again, with Bruce Weber. That blowout at home against Dayton in the NIT was pretty sweet too. That was also on my birthday.
I remember a loss to Ped St. in 2001. It was the day I had my vasectomy. Nothing like watching a shitty Illini game with frozen peas on your nuts.
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And so began our rapid descent into the basketball abyss. Tenn St, 38-33, Utah, Bradley, 2012 Nebraska, UIC...oh don't even get me started on UIC. We should have forfeited our spot in that year's tourney based on that loss alone.
2012 Nebraska was the low point. I remember telling people to expect a loss and getting flak. When Nebraska was up by 20+, I contacted a few of those people.
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I can remember where I was at and what I was doing for each of those godawful losses. Don’t forget the loss to Indiana when they barely had any D1 caliber players on their roster. Aka, the game where I was officially done, again, with Bruce Weber. That blowout at home against Dayton in the NIT was pretty sweet too. That was also on my birthday.
IIRC, I was watching the Dayton game on TV with a cynical Illini fan. As often happened, Tisdale had 4 fouls with a good bit of time to go. Weber pulls him, and Dayton goes on a run. So Tisdale comes back in with at least 6 min. to go.
I ask the guy next to me, "How long will he last?"
"Not long."
He fouled out within a minute.
Unless we're talking about another Dayton game ...
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The problem here is, the goalposts keep moving. First it's not an annual goal, but then the time frame moves from the last 25 years to the last few.
Obviously if you just look at the last few seasons, you don't have Big Ten teams advancing consistently. But you don't have to go back to the Nichi era to see a time when things were different.
Anyone who sets the goalposts at "a yearly Sweet 16" is being a dumbass, that's my point. We've never been that, and in 2023 very few teams are.
If that's where they are you need to move them, or go root for a blue blood - those are the only places that has a real chance of being met consistently.
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Possibly. But the program lost some good coaches because those were exactly the expectations at one time. Losing in the second round wasn't good enough.
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Which coaches?
Weber got fired because he missed 3 of 5 tournaments after inheriting the roster from one of those very rare stretches where we made 4 of 5 S16's. He'd gone 7 years in a row without a S16 before we fired him, after inheriting the Dee/Deron group.
Groce got fired because he missed four straight tournaments.
Both guys would've almost certainly gotten at least one more year had they made the tournament in their last season, even if they lost in the first round.
Those are the only two coaches we've fired in my life. Both for missing the tournament more often than they made it, not for losing in the second round.
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Which coaches?
Weber got fired because he missed 3 of 5 tournaments after inheriting the roster from one of those very rare stretches where we made 4 of 5 S16's. He'd gone 7 years in a row without a S16 before we fired him, after inheriting the Dee/Deron group.
Groce got fired because he missed four straight tournaments.
Both guys would've almost certainly gotten at least one more year had they made the tournament in their last season, even if they lost in the first round.
Those are the only two coaches we've fired in my life. Both for missing the tournament more often than they made it, not for losing in the second round.
Note the quoted material. I can't speak for who doesn't post here, but there are fans who say straight out that Weber needed to build on the early success.
Do you really think Groce would have saved himself by squeaking into the tournament with a 7-10 seed and then losing? Doubtful. He needed more than that.
The other people I'm thinking of -- Henson, Kruger, Self -- all had cited other reasons for why they left. But all three ended up coaching somewhere else again in college down the road. I doubt that the pressure to WINWINWIN can be discarded. Do we really think that if Self had made the Final Four in 2001, defeated Kansas in 2002, and then made another run in a loaded regional in 2003 that Illinois would have hesitated to at least try to match the offer he ended up getting?
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Note the quoted material. I can't speak for who doesn't post here, but there are fans who say straight out that Weber needed to build on the early success.
Do you really think Groce would have saved himself by squeaking into the tournament with a 7-10 seed and then losing? Doubtful. He needed more than that.
The other people I'm thinking of -- Henson, Kruger, Self -- all had cited other reasons for why they left. But all three ended up coaching somewhere else again in college down the road. I doubt that the pressure to WINWINWIN can be discarded. Do we really think that if Self had made the Final Four in 2001, defeated Kansas in 2002, and then made another run in a loaded regional in 2003 that Illinois would have hesitated to at least try to match the offer he ended up getting?
You completely ignore that Guenther was an idiot in allowing Self to leave and that he then hired Weber because he knew he would never leave.
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The non-conference losses - losing to UIC at the UC should have had him fired the next day - were bad and Nebraska was the merciful final nail but I'll always have a soft spot for PSU 38 - No. 18 llinois 33 at home on 2/18/09.
Post-Weber but I also love when Illinois needed a buzzer-beater to knock off Chicago State on a neutral floor. I cannot believe Groce kept his job after that.
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Note the quoted material. I can't speak for who doesn't post here, but there are fans who say straight out that Weber needed to build on the early success.
The point of the quoted portion is that far from "demanding a S16 every year", they let Weber go seven years without one before he got fired. And he still would've kept his job if he'd made the tourney with that last disastrous group with a lottery pick at center.
We fired both coaches we've fired in the last god knows how many decades not because they didn't make the S16 every year, but because they missed the tournament more often than they made it.
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There were more than a couple times fans were unhappy with Lou.
Early on, a vocal segment gave credit to Tony Yates for the turn around. Later on to Collins.
A couple of the worst decisions:
Not recruiting class of 1984 Hersey Hawkins from Chicago Westinghouse. Hawkins was an undersized 5 in high school. Henson reportedly didn't think he could make the transition to a college wing. He apparently liked Glynn Blackwell from Michigan better.
March 12, 1987: Leaving Daryl Bedford of Austin Peay open for face up set shots. Bedford made 5 threes and scored 24 points. 3 seed IL lost to the 14 seed 68-67.
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You completely ignore that Guenther was an idiot in allowing Self to leave and that he then hired Weber because he knew he would never leave.
I believe I said earlier in the thread that we can never again have another situation where the AD tells the entire planet that he does not want to hire another basketball coach. I was thinking more of Groce there, but Weber might also apply.
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The point of the quoted portion is that far from "demanding a S16 every year", they let Weber go seven years without one before he got fired. And he still would've kept his job if he'd made the tourney with that last disastrous group with a lottery pick at center.
We fired both coaches we've fired in the last god knows how many decades not because they didn't make the S16 every year, but because they missed the tournament more often than they made it.
Fairly sure Weber made the tournament more than he missed it. It was the lack of tournament success that led to his demise.
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Fairy sure Weber made the tournament more than he missed it. It was the lack of tournament success that led to his demise.
Take away his first 3 seasons with Billy's players. Weber missed the tourney a lot.
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Take away his first 3 seasons with Billy's players. Weber missed the tourney a lot.
He missed the NCAA tournament 3 times in his 9 years. So if we keep moving the goalposts around and now are saying the basis was making the tournament, then he succeeded two-thirds of the time.
Weber got dismissed because of lack of success in the tournament.
Also, doesn't matter "whose players" he had after the first season.
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All the best players in years 1-3 were Self’s guys. After they left Bruce tied a program record for losses in 07/08. He was 50% on making the tourney after Self’s guys were gone. It was more than just how poorly he did in the tournament those few years he managed to get there with his own guys.
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All the best players in years 1-3 were Self’s guys. After they left Bruce tied a program record for losses in 07/08. He was 50% on making the tourney after Self’s guys were gone. It was more than just how poorly he did in the tournament those few years he managed to get there with his own guys.
All issues, but the main issue was not advancing past the 1st/2nd round of the tournament when they got there.
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Fairly sure Weber made the tournament more than he missed it. It was the lack of tournament success that led to his demise.
Using your same logic, he had the most tournament success of pretty much any coach we've ever had in the modern era.
But once he had to win with players he brought in, he missed the tournament more often than he made it; thus he got fired.
It wasn't about S16's. It was about missing the tournament. This "we demand a S16 every year" thing is fucking stupid, pure fantasy nonsense.
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All issues, but the main issue was not advancing past the 1st/2nd round of the tournament when they got there.
The main issue was not advancing to the first round of the tournament.
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He missed the NCAA tournament 3 times in his 9 years. So if we keep moving the goalposts around and now are saying the basis was making the tournament, then he succeeded two-thirds of the time.
Weber got dismissed because of lack of success in the tournament.
Also, doesn't matter "whose players" he had after the first season.
It's funny to watch you twist every which way trying to force the facts to fit your claim, which they decidedly do not.
If it was about making the S16 every year, they would not have allowed Weber to miss 6 in a row and keep his job. But they did. They fired him because once Bill Self's players graduated, he didn't make the tournament even half the time.
And even with that disaster, if he'd made the tournament and lost in the first round in Meyers' sophomore year, he'd have been retained.
Same with Groce's last season. Make the tournament and keep your job. Nothing to do with a S16.
Neither guy got it done.
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The main issue was not advancing to the first round of the tournament.
And look how Underachiever is viewed as the Coaching Justin Fields for just making the tourney and losing the 2d game of the 1st weekend.
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And look how Underachiever is viewed as the Coaching Justin Fields for just making the tourney and losing the 2d game of the 1st weekend.
Have you always been such a complete and utter dumbass, or did that just start when you started exclusively interacting with the biggest group of immature morons on the Illini internet?
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The main issue was not advancing to the first round of the tournament.
And yet Weber did that two-thirds of the time.
Where did he fall short? Advancing past the second round.
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https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1043583-illinois-basketball-why-its-time-to-say-goodbye-to-bruce-weber
He seems content to finish in the middle of the conference, get an average seed in the NCAA tournament, (maybe) win a game in the tournament, and call it a season.
Regarding use of "Self's guys":
Early on Weber was criticized for not landing the big recruits, but since 2009 he has landed nine top 100 recruits, and yet the results are the same.
Tournament success is the common factor.
Also, this 2009-2012 period was a prime example of how recruiting "stars" don't automatically equal success.
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Using your same logic, he had the most tournament success of pretty much any coach we've ever had in the modern era.
Because he did at the start. Then he (mostly) stopped advancing past the first round.
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Have you always been such a complete and utter dumbass, or did that just start when you started exclusively interacting with the biggest group of immature morons on the Illini internet?
Probably a little of both.
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And yet Weber did that two-thirds of the time.
Where did he fall short? Advancing past the second round.
He fell short by being unable to make the field consistently once Bill Self's players graduated.
He was fine not making the second weekend - hell, he did it six straight times and suited up for the seventh season. That couldn't more obviously not have been the issue, as evidenced by the fact that not only did he not make it every year and keep his job, he didn't make it for more than half a decade consecutively and still kept his job.
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Because he did at the start. Then he (mostly) stopped advancing past the first round.
Then he mostly stopped making the tournament.
He didn't make the sweet 16 from 2005-2006 through 2010-2011, and was still employed in 2011-2012.
He was fine missing six straight S16's, but was fired for missing three of five tournaments.
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He fell short by being unable to make the field consistently once Bill Self's players graduated.
He was fine not making the second weekend - hell, he did it six straight times and suited up for the seventh season. That couldn't more obviously not have been the issue, as evidenced by the fact that not only did he not make it every year and keep his job, he didn't make it for more than half a decade consecutively and still kept his job.
That doesn't change what the fans expected. Our memories of the old board seem to differ.
Short of pictures of him with farm animals, he wasn't getting fired 2-3 years after getting to the NCAA finals, regardless of what players he inherited.
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Then he mostly stopped making the tournament.
He didn't make the sweet 16 from 2005-2006 through 2010-2011, and was still employed in 2011-2012.
He was fine missing six straight S16's, but was fired for missing three of five tournaments.
The fans still expected him to make those Sweet Sixteens. Alas, the AD holds the controls.
Also, as mentioned above, he wasn't getting axed 2-3 seasons after making the final game.
And I am quite sure the decision to pull the plug in 2012 was made LONG before the NCAA tournament field was announced.
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That doesn't change what the fans expected. Our memories of the old board seem to differ.
Short of pictures of him with farm animals, he wasn't getting fired 2-3 years after getting to the NCAA finals, regardless of what players he inherited.
Is that your point?
That some fucking moron Illini fans screeched about a S16 every year 20 years ago?
Of course they do, some of our fans are stupid as fuck.
Those people having stupid and unrealistic expectations for our program doesn't change the reality.
We have never been an annual S16 team for longer than a 5 year stretch, ever, over a century plus. Nor has Illinois ever fired a coach who made the tournament annually but hadn't been past the second round. They have fired two coaches, both for missing the tournament consistently.
The S16 thing is just a reason to whine. If we make it this year they'll move the goalposts, because they're fucking morons.
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Of course they do, some of our fans are stupid as fuck.
Isn't this Bored, Scorat Bored, Loyalty Bored living proof of this? I cannot even imagine what "Illini The Twitter" looks like.
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Isn't this Bored, Scorat Bored, Loyalty Bored living proof of this? I cannot even imagine what "Illini The Twitter" looks like.
Scout board has a whole lot more intelligent and reasonable discussion than I've ever seen out of this place these days.
Also a lot of idiots, for sure, but this place is a fucking nightmare.
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Isn't this Bored, Scorat Bored, Loyalty Bored living proof of this? I cannot even imagine what "Illini The Twitter" looks like.
You should see what some of the dipshits write on FB.
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Scout board has a whole lot more intelligent and reasonable discussion than I've ever seen out of this place these days.
So they know over there that JFC has problems reading defenses?
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You should see what some of the dipshits write on FB.
I did not even contemplate FB in the equation.
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Is that your point?
That some fucking moron Illini fans screeched about a S16 every year 20 years ago?
Of course they do, some of our fans are stupid as fuck.
Those people having stupid and unrealistic expectations for our program doesn't change the reality.
We have never been an annual S16 team for longer than a 5 year stretch, ever, over a century plus. Nor has Illinois ever fired a coach who made the tournament annually but hadn't been past the second round. They have fired two coaches, both for missing the tournament consistently.
The S16 thing is just a reason to whine. If we make it this year they'll move the goalposts, because they're fucking morons.
It wasn't 20 years ago, but yeah, most of that.
The "getting fired" thing is not really proof of much. Coaches who know they are on thin ice often jump to other opportunities. That's why Tubby Smith left COK before it was COK. Roy Williams didn't like the situation at Kansas, so he jumped to UNC. Mike Brey saw the writing on the wall and announced he was retiring. Steve Alford (son of Sam) knew it was time to depart Iowa.
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Scout board has a whole lot more intelligent and reasonable discussion than I've ever seen out of this place these days.
Also a lot of idiots, for sure, but this place is a fucking nightmare.
But it's our nightmare.
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But it's our nightmare.
Reminds me of this scene from Patton....
https://youtu.be/hKWprtKwv74?t=155
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Reminds me of this scene from Patton....
https://youtu.be/hKWprtKwv74?t=155
I was thinking more of the end of Road House. "This is our town!"
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Just looked at some of the blocked stuff. Am I really reading this correctly?
Someone seems to suggest Bill Self left Illinois for KU because he failed to make the sweet 16 and was on the hot seat?
Or that Roy Williams left KU for UNC because he was insecure at KU?
Nobody could possibly believe that nonsense. I have to be reading it wrong.
I suppose by the same logic Gene Bartow was on the hot seat at Illinois so he took the UCLA job?
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Roy Williams was pretty direct about the AD change at Kansas playing a part in his decision.
And Gene Bartow was a sparkling 8-18 in his only year at Illinois.
Keep fighting the senility fight, Nichi.
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Roy Williams was pretty direct about the AD change at Kansas playing a part in his decision.
And Gene Bartow was a sparkling 8-18 in his only year at Illinois.
I guess I read correctly.
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Roy Williams last 3 years at KU. Sweet 16, final 4, championship game. Hot seat?
Bartow was hired to replace John Wooden.
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Winning 8 games with the roster Bartow had was an impressive feat. He hired Tony Yates who recruited Audie Matthews. Yates stayed on with Henson and turned around Chicago recruiting.
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Roy Williams last 3 years at KU. Sweet 16, final 4, championship game. Hot seat?
Bartow was hired to replace John Wooden.
Try getting some facts, Nichi.
https://www.espn.com/ncb/news/2003/0409/1536529.html
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Try getting some facts, Nichi.
https://www.espn.com/ncb/news/2003/0409/1536529.html
Did you not read your link, or have trouble with comprehension? The AD he clashed with was fired. That situation was not a factor. He picked his alma mater UNC over KU.
"Sources close to Williams said Wednesday that he again is torn and hasn't made up his mind whether to remain in Lawrence. Bohl's ouster might not factor in his decision; Williams either will go home to North Carolina or stay where he has enjoyed building a legacy after reaching back-to-back Final Fours and four in his 15 years as coach."
"Sources within the Carolina program expect Williams to take the job if offered and said they would be upset if he rejected it a second time. They said Williams feels responsible for the present state of the program after he stayed at Kansas. But Carolina's program is on the verge of returning to the NCAA Tournament and should be ranked in the top 10 next season, so he could be walking back into a Final Four situation instead of rebuilding, which he would have been had he succeeded Bill Guthridge in Chapel Hill three years ago."
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Did you not read your link, or have trouble with comprehension?
Are these rhetorical questions?
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Are these rhetorical questions?
That was an either / or question.
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Did you not read your link, or have trouble with comprehension? The AD he clashed with was fired. That situation was not a factor. He picked his alma mater UNC over KU.
"Sources close to Williams said Wednesday that he again is torn and hasn't made up his mind whether to remain in Lawrence. Bohl's ouster might not factor in his decision; Williams either will go home to North Carolina or stay where he has enjoyed building a legacy after reaching back-to-back Final Fours and four in his 15 years as coach."
"Sources within the Carolina program expect Williams to take the job if offered and said they would be upset if he rejected it a second time. They said Williams feels responsible for the present state of the program after he stayed at Kansas. But Carolina's program is on the verge of returning to the NCAA Tournament and should be ranked in the top 10 next season, so he could be walking back into a Final Four situation instead of rebuilding, which he would have been had he succeeded Bill Guthridge in Chapel Hill three years ago."
The AD was fired because it was obvious Williams wasn't staying. Try not to be incredibly dense.
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The larger point here, which Nichi is missing (no surprise), is that coaches leave many times for reasons other than getting fired. So in a way, Nichi is making my argument for me, even if he is too dumb to realize it.
I feel like I typed this almost word for word a page or two ago. But some horses can't figure out how to drink.
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Here, I'll try to help out the dense:
https://www.espn.com/ncb/ncaatourney03/news/2003/0408/1535695.html
Williams has an icy relationship with Bohl and is strongly considering leaving Kansas if the AD isn't either fired or asked to resign, the Star's source said. It has been widely confirmed through sources within the athletic department that Bohl has strained relationships with both Williams and football coach Mark Mangino.
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This is almost funny. Our resident kook #2 claimed Williams left KU because he had problems with the AD. Yet that AD was fired and Williams left anyway.
He posts this:
"The AD was fired because it was obvious Williams wasn't staying. Try not to be incredibly dense."
and this:
"Williams has an icy relationship with Bohl and is strongly considering leaving Kansas if the AD isn't either fired or asked to resign ..."
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The larger point here, which Nichi is missing (no surprise), is that coaches leave many times for reasons other than getting fired. So in a way, Nichi is making my argument for me, even if he is too dumb to realize it.
I feel like I typed this almost word for word a page or two ago. But some horses can't figure out how to drink.
What an utterly profound insight. Coaches actually leave for reasons other than getting canned. Also, for reasons other avoiding the hot seat.
Gene Bartow, Lon Kruger, and Bill Self left Illinois because they received extremely attractive job offers and our AD's were unwilling or unable to do enough to retain them. Their seats at the time were not were not even remotely warm. Expectations were not excessively high. I will say I am confident they found recruiting more challenging than they expected, whether they admitted publicly or not.
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YOU are the one who keeps referring to coaches not being on the hot seat. Again, you are essentially making my point and still not realizing it when you echo things like "Coaches don't always get fired." Which I said four pages ago.
And in typically classic Nichi fashion, you are pivoting off your own statement that YOU created.
Again, great job, Nichi.
In regard to the Williams thing: He had already either agreed to the UNC job before the AD was fired, or he was told that if he turned it down a second time, it wouldn't be offered again. So the AD firing didn't make him stay at Kansas, but the conflicts certainly figured into the decision to leave.
I know this is too complex for you to understand.
Now, this is the part where you make up something that was never said, then essentially start using it to make my argument. Then you will make yourself look ridiculous by celebrating your great "counterpoint."
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Granted I blocked IVMP, and was only following half a conversation.
I just had the distinct impression IVMP said Weber and Groce were fired for failing to reach the sweet 16 consistently. He even seemed to imply Henson, Kruger and Self left Illinois because the pressure to make the sweet 16 was too much. He then brought up the fact that Roy Williams left KU for UNC to support his nonsense.
The truth is Kruger, Self, and Williams; like Bartow, left in good standing and good shape for what they saw as a better opportunity.
Henson's decision to retire is instructive. I can't go into too much detail right now. Henson inherited a mess that included recruiting sanctions for violations committed 4 to 5 years earlier. He and Tony Yates rebuilt the program by cultivating relationships with influential high school coaches like Roy Condotti, Don Pittman, Sonny Cox, Bob Hambric, Benny Lewis, and others. That model served him well, until it didn't. By the end of the 1980s, the recruiting landscape was changing. High school coaches were losing control over recruiting to summer league coaches and street agents.
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The old model of mainly recruiting IL and going out of state for an occasional stud has not worked for a long time. Illinois has to recruit nationally.
Another point is top 150, 4 star talent with a mix of skills is nice to have. To win big you need some 5 star NBA talent too, or 4 stars who outplay their rank like Deron Williams, or else a coach like Bill Self.
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Note to Nichi: Self never got to a Final Four with Illinois. And he used some of Kruger's players. Funny how the dummies here ignore facts when it doesn't suit their lame-ass arguments.
Also, I like how dummies like Nichi keep pointing out that some coaches left in good standing. Um, that's the point. If they can leave before getting fired, they do. I feel like (again) this was typed almost word for word several pages ago. But I guess Nichi is still figuring out how to use a computer.
Not 1958 anymore, bud. Learn to Google. Get facts. Try not to repeat erroneous information, or to make the other person's argument.
I know this will be tough for you. But you might be able to make it happen.
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The old model of mainly recruiting IL and going out of state for an occasional stud has not worked for a long time. Illinois has to recruit nationally.
Another point is top 150, 4 star talent with a mix of skills is nice to have. To win big you need some 5 star NBA talent too, or 4 stars who outplay their rank like Deron Williams, or else a coach like Bill Self.
Deep (And Erroneous) Thoughts, by Nichi.
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The recruitments of two in state bigs; one in 1988 from ESL Lincoln, the other from Chicago Simeon in 1989, demonstrate what happened to Lou Henson.
In 1988, Collins and Henson went through ESL Lincoln HC Benny Lewis. ND and John Shumate quietly went through another third party (former grade school coach, summer league coach?) Lewis was as surprised as anyone when the kid picked ND. He had looked like an Illini lock until wavering days before fall signing.
In 1989, Collins and Henson went through Simeon HC Bob Hambric. They respected his wishes that his players wait until spring to announce. Bruce Pearl of Iowa hired a Simeon student to serve as his street agent. Pearl pushed the kid to commit early and secretly recorded conversations.
There were lots of twists and turns. Too many to go over right now. We all know about the conversation Pearl recorded and turned over to the NCAA. The were holes in Pearl's story and they were about to drop the whole thing. Then the kid from ESL was interviewed by Mike Slive.
It was not NCAA sanctions per se that hurt Henson's program, it was the changes in the recruiting landscape. The NCAA sanctions were a side effect.
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Self had an EE, a S16, and a 2nd round loss here.
Lon Kruger was handed an unsustainable downstate recruiting bonanza, but was locked out of the CPS / CPL.
I doubt the recruiting challenges scared Self off, but they might have influenced Kruger. Self was taking more of a national approach and would have been competitive with the top players in the state.
The idea that pressure to make it to the sweet 16 scared them off is silly.
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The fans still expected him to make those Sweet Sixteens. Alas, the AD holds the controls.
Also, as mentioned above, he wasn't getting axed 2-3 seasons after making the final game.
And I am quite sure the decision to pull the plug in 2012 was made LONG before the NCAA tournament field was announced.
You can be sure of whatever you want, you only sound like a dumbass. I'd imagine you're used to that.
The decision to pull the plug in 2012 was made before the field was announced because we weren't even close to the bubble, yes. If we made the tournament, though, Weber would've been retained.
So yes, your entire rant here was about how our idiot fans dEmAnD a sweet 16 every year? Yes, a lot of our fans are morons. You post here regularly though with ILLove and JudgeJudy and PAMan and, well, you - so you already know that.
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It wasn't 20 years ago, but yeah, most of that.
The "getting fired" thing is not really proof of much. Coaches who know they are on thin ice often jump to other opportunities. That's why Tubby Smith left COK before it was COK. Roy Williams didn't like the situation at Kansas, so he jumped to UNC. Mike Brey saw the writing on the wall and announced he was retiring. Steve Alford (son of Sam) knew it was time to depart Iowa.
And that's what happened with Illinois?
Or you're just blatantly flailing to MAYBE make SOMETHING resembling a coherent point here?
Man, and I thought you were a fucking moron on the old board. Jesus Christ do you sound dumb here.
We don't fire guys for not making the S16 every year. Never have, and barring a major change in fortune over the next couple decades likely never will. If you miss the tournament consistently we'll fire you though, as we've shown.
I'm sure you're right that there are some morons who think they matter 'DEMANDING' that, but those people simply couldn't matter less. They're dumber than you are, which is an accomplishment.
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Yes, a lot of our fans are morons. You post here regularly though with ILLove and JudgeJudy and PAMan and, well, you - so you already know that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uM1MlQ0S64
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Don't hold back, Spark. Tell us how you really feel.
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You can be sure of whatever you want, you only sound like a dumbass. I'd imagine you're used to that.
The decision to pull the plug in 2012 was made before the field was announced because we weren't even close to the bubble, yes. If we made the tournament, though, Weber would've been retained.
So yes, your entire rant here was about how our idiot fans dEmAnD a sweet 16 every year? Yes, a lot of our fans are morons. You post here regularly though with ILLove and JudgeJudy and PAMan and, well, you - so you already know that.
hows your transition going?
you seem pretty bitter and angry for no reason at all so I'd say you're almost there
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Have you always been such a complete and utter dumbass, or did that just start when you started exclusively interacting with the biggest group of immature morons on the Illini internet?
PAMan is a redditor, confirmed.
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PAMan is a redditor, confirmed.
Not on there either. Maybe I should join. Are they all Merrymen 2.0 over there?
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The main issue was not advancing to the first round of the tournament.
This. The OSU loss in the B1G Tourney in 2010 was the absolute last straw for me.
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The non-conference losses - losing to UIC at the UC should have had him fired the next day - were bad and Nebraska was the merciful final nail but I'll always have a soft spot for PSU 38 - No. 18 llinois 33 at home on 2/18/09.
Post-Weber but I also love when Illinois needed a buzzer-beater to knock off Chicago State on a neutral floor. I cannot believe Groce kept his job after that.
That was a golden era for hate watching the Illini.
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Man, looks like I’ve been ignoring a good thread in the style we used to argue when this place was fun.
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Don't hold back, Spark. Tell us how you really feel.
It was quality Merrymen 2.0 work today by Marv Mandrill. Learned today that Underachiever can have a 1 seed or 2 All Americans and should not be expected to make a S16. I subscribed to his newsletter.
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You can be sure of whatever you want, you only sound like a dumbass. I'd imagine you're used to that.
The decision to pull the plug in 2012 was made before the field was announced because we weren't even close to the bubble, yes. If we made the tournament, though, Weber would've been retained.
So yes, your entire rant here was about how our idiot fans dEmAnD a sweet 16 every year? Yes, a lot of our fans are morons. You post here regularly though with ILLove and JudgeJudy and PAMan and, well, you - so you already know that.
The University hired a new AD well before the end of the 2012 season. If you weren't a complete dumbass, you might realize that spelled the end for Weber.
Oh, BTW -- you suck.
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IVMP is full of amazing insights. I found out Self never made the final four at Illinois. Who new?
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IVMP is full of amazing insights. I found out Self never made the final four at Illinois. Who new?
Tell us some more stories about the 1960s Illini, Gramps.
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Tell us some more stories about the 1960s Illini, Gramps.
I kinda want to hear about Jud Heathcote.
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I kinda want to hear about Jud Heathcote.
The one where he bounced the ball of his nose ?
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I kinda want to hear about Jud Heathcote.
Can't help you much. We weren't actually discussing the 1960s. IVMP is trying to distract attention from his lunacy.
He claimed Kruger and Self left Illinois because the pressure to make the sweet 16 every year was just too much. He mentioned Henson too.
He also claimed Roy Williams left KU for UNC because he didn't like an AD who was already fired before Williams accepted the UNC offer.
He seems to be trying to say that the standards at Illinois have been lowered to accommodate Underwood. I dunno what Roy Williams' feud with Al Bohl had to do with it.
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The one where he bounced the ball of his nose ?
https://youtu.be/sHGC16CXS00
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https://youtu.be/sHGC16CXS00
Thank you. Classic stuff.
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Can't help you much. We weren't actually discussing the 1960s. IVMP is trying to distract attention from his lunacy.
He claimed Kruger and Self left Illinois because the pressure to make the sweet 16 every year was just too much. He mentioned Henson too.
He also claimed Roy Williams left KU for UNC because he didn't like an AD who was already fired before Williams accepted the UNC offer.
He seems to be trying to say that the standards at Illinois have been lowered to accommodate Underwood. I dunno what Roy Williams' feud with Al Bohl had to do with it.
Nichi is still struggling with his ignorance. He makes conclusions that don't hold water, based on things that have been posted repeatedly, and then hopes that if he repeats them often enough, they will have credibility.
It has been mentioned numerous times that a coach often doesn't simply wait to have his fate decided. In Roy Williams' case, he didn't get along with the AD. He had already turned down UNC once. He knew that if he didn't accept the second time, there wouldn't be another offer.
Williams left Kansas for those reasons. He made that decision before the AD was fired, even if it wasn't announced until later. Anyone operating above the Nichi level of intelligence can figure out the AD was fired BECAUSE Williams was leaving. When Nichi keeps arguing that Williams "wasn't on the hot seat," he reveals himself to be a non-reading buffoon. Yet he keeps doing so.
He does say one correct thing here, which is miraculous. The standards have been lowered.
(Also, Kansas got Self AND had a run of success in football.)
In regard to the bolded part: You're just dumb. Not sure how that can be watered down.
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I kinda want to hear about Jud Heathcote.
Hank Iba is more of Nichi's bag.
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Our resident creep now claims to have secret inside knowledge unknown to anyone else. He says Roy Williams made the decision to accept the UNC offer before Bohl was fired. Yet the sources he linked say Roy was torn.
I gather this is intended to be an example of how coaches leave instead of waiting to be fired. He is still clinging to the idea that Lon and Bill left because the UI standards of performance were just to high.
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I always thought it was Lon's wife?
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Our resident creep now claims to have secret inside knowledge unknown to anyone else. He says Roy Williams made the decision to accept the UNC offer before Bohl was fired. Yet the sources he linked say Roy was torn.
I gather this is intended to be an example of how coaches leave instead of waiting to be fired. He is still clinging to the idea that Lon and Bill left because the UI standards of performance were just to high.
Because he did.
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Because he did.
Did Roy tell you that?
Or did you just make it up like the other things you post?