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General Category => Fighting Illini Basketball Forum => Topic started by: illiniray on February 09, 2023, 02:41:14 PM

Title: Who is #2?
Post by: illiniray on February 09, 2023, 02:41:14 PM
MJ is clearly the best basketball ever. Who is second best is debatable. I think there is actually a large second tier:

The Big O
Bill Russell
The Big Dipper
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Dr. J
Bird
Magic
Hakeem
The Mailman
Moses
Shaq
Kobe
LeBron

More:
Cousy
Bob Pettit
Mikan
Hondo
Jerry West
Pistol Pete
Zeke
Iceman
Duncan
The Admiral
Ewing
Sir Charles
Paul Pierce
Dirk
Durant
Stephen Curry

Off the top of my head.
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: ThePAMan on February 09, 2023, 04:02:25 PM
Bill Russell won 11 rings.
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: Jrock74 on February 09, 2023, 04:28:25 PM
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: ridingthegrange on February 09, 2023, 08:15:30 PM
I have to give it to LeBron.  He won playing with Kyrie.  That's a lift.  I also considered Russell, Curry, Wilt, and Jabbar for changing the game in their day.
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: illinicalvin on February 09, 2023, 08:29:21 PM
I'd dramatically shrink that 2nd tier.

Would vote Magic or Lebron myself.
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: alum74 on February 09, 2023, 08:49:06 PM
I’d have to go with John Havlicek, the best sixth man in the history of professional basketball.  Played on eight NBA championship teams. 

And, to top it off, Hondo had a great singing voice!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oD0m7CHx1g
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: Reacher on February 10, 2023, 09:57:07 AM
Why is Jordan the unquestioned #1?
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: illiniray on February 10, 2023, 09:58:04 AM
 gt!! Old
Why is Jordan the unquestioned #1?

Bob Knight said so..
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: ILLove1997 on February 10, 2023, 10:37:48 AM
Shaq is the most dominant player I have ever seen, (too young to watch Wilt Chamberlain) but the best?  That's a tough one to call in a team sport.  Hate to say it but LeBron is definitely up there, for my #2 I'd go with Kareem... dude won huge at every level, 3 time ncaa champ, 6 time nba champ, prior scoring leader, etc
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: IVMP on February 10, 2023, 11:10:57 AM
Why is Jordan the unquestioned #1?

Why the bow tie?
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: illiniray on February 10, 2023, 11:15:08 PM
My initial other list included Jerry Lucas, the Big E, Spencer Haywood, and Dominique Wilkins.
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: ThePAMan on February 11, 2023, 07:59:00 AM
Did Wilkins ever make it out of the first round of the playoffs?
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: Somewhere in Mn on February 11, 2023, 08:42:25 AM
"Few athletes have impacted their sport on a worldwide level more than Meadowlark Lemon."
🤡🏀
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: ThePAMan on February 11, 2023, 08:48:32 AM
"Few athletes have impacted their sport on a worldwide level more than Meadowlark Lemon."
🤡🏀

Curley Neal was really good at dribbling.
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: Somewhere in Mn on February 11, 2023, 08:53:31 AM
Curley Neal was really good at dribbling.
Red Klotz was an accomplished loser.
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: ThePAMan on February 11, 2023, 08:54:33 AM
Red Klotz was an accomplished loser.

The Washington General always get screwed by the refs.
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: Somewhere in Mn on February 11, 2023, 09:15:05 AM
The Washington General always get screwed by the refs.
To their credit, they didn't bitch about it incessantly. 😁
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: illinicalvin on February 11, 2023, 09:18:50 AM
Did Wilkins ever make it out of the first round of the playoffs?
Farthest he ever went looks like was losing game 7 of the conference semis in 88. Sucks that he never had the supporting cast and the Celts, Pistons, and later the Bulls were roadblocks but that sort-of removes him from the best-of discussion.

With the advanced metrics, he's showing up as a comparable to guys like Clyde Drexler, Chauncey Billups, Chet Walker, Scottie Pippen, Tony Parker, etc., all of whom won rings.

Amazing player, but no where near the penthouse.
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: IVMP on February 11, 2023, 09:35:35 AM
Eli Manning won 2 Super Bowl rings. No sane person says he is even a top 20 player.
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: Reacher on February 11, 2023, 09:49:24 AM
"Few athletes have impacted their sport on a worldwide level more than Meadowlark Lemon."
🤡🏀

David Stern impacted the NBA in a way few have. I don’t think that statement necessarily states he was an actual all-time great player. But he was a great ambassador for basketball.
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: Reacher on February 11, 2023, 09:51:26 AM
Dominique Wilkins is only in the “best of” discussions when it comes to dunking. Great player, but he does not belong in the GOAT discussion. That list is probably 12 players long, max. And that’s if you’re talking 1 AND 2.
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: illiniray on February 11, 2023, 12:09:44 PM
Dominique Wilkins is only in the “best of” discussions when it comes to dunking. Great player, but he does not belong in the GOAT discussion. That list is probably 12 players long, max. And that’s if you’re talking 1 AND 2.

There were a few others on my initial off the top of my head "more" list.

12 sounds like a good number. The second 12.

I would trim most of the more list.
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: illiniray on February 11, 2023, 12:30:36 PM
Why is Jordan the unquestioned #1?

14 All-Star appearances, 10 Scoring titles, 11 All-NBA selections, 2 Olympic Golds, 6 NBA championships, 6 Finals MVP and 5 league MVPs

 “The kid is just an absolutely great kid. If I were going to pick the 3 or 4 best athletes I’ve ever seen play basketball, he’d be one of them. I think he’s the best athlete I’ve ever seen play basketball. If I were gonna pick 3-4 with the best ability I’d ever seen play the game, he’d be one of them. If I’m gonna pick the best competitor that I’ve ever seen play, he’d be one of them.

So, in the categories of competitiveness, ability, skill and then athletic ability, he’s the best athlete, he’s one of the best competitors, he’s one of the most skilled players. And that to me makes him the best basketball player that I’ve ever seen play”

Bob Knight 1984
https://twitter.com/Super70sSports/status/1287104381574422528?t=ewf1sSmSQnk8MfLBwldjgw&s=19

Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: Custard on February 11, 2023, 04:34:55 PM
Super 70s Sports is one of the best follows in Twitter imo. Not that anyone here uses Twitter.
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: Judge Judy on February 11, 2023, 04:54:03 PM
Super 70s Sports is one of the best follows in Twitter imo. Not that anyone here uses Twitter.

I recently (about 6 months ago) started following it and I have to agree. Great page!
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: Custard on February 11, 2023, 04:58:02 PM
I’m sure it’s too uncouth, unrefined and insensitive for Tempo, but I enjoy it.
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: illinicalvin on February 11, 2023, 07:05:24 PM
Super 70s Sports is a fun twitter account. Too bad the site's going to slowly crumble under the weight of idiots.
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: IVMP on February 11, 2023, 07:28:42 PM
Twitter can be entertaining when you're pwning the complete morons.

It's not as fun when it's a giant echo chamber for the ultrastupid people.
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: illiniray on February 11, 2023, 08:26:07 PM
#1 MJ

Second Tier:
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Magic
Kobe
LeBron
The Big O
Bill Russell
The Big Dipper
Dr. J
Bird

Plus three of:
Shaq
Hakeem
The Mailman
Cousy
Hondo
Duncan
Sir Charles
Durant
Stephen Curry

Edit: Cousy belongs in this discussion. He changed the way the NBA game was played by incorporating some Globetrotter style ball handling, passing, and shooting. 
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: Reacher on February 11, 2023, 09:05:09 PM
I’m sure it’s too uncouth, unrefined and insensitive for Tempo, but I enjoy it.

Imma check it out.
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: Reacher on February 11, 2023, 09:09:41 PM
I’m sure it’s too uncouth, unrefined and insensitive for Tempo, but I enjoy it.

Scrolled about 30 posts. Looks pretty great to me.
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: Judge Judy on February 11, 2023, 10:31:10 PM
Scrolled about 30 posts. Looks pretty great to me.

It is glorious.
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: illiniray on February 12, 2023, 02:49:05 PM
My teenage great nephew has MJ #3. He says LeBron is #1, and Kareem is #2.

His argument is LeBron has the stats -- points, rebounds, and assists; while Jabbar changed the game.
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: Reacher on February 12, 2023, 02:53:20 PM
My teenage great nephew has MJ #3. He says LeBron is #1, and Kareem is #2.

His argument is LeBron has the stats -- points, rebounds, and assists; while Jabbar changed the game.

LeBron is bigger and (was) just as athletic as Jordan. Most of his numbers are better. Certainly a better facilitator than Jordan. Better rebounder. LeBron can guard 5 positions. Half of the rosters LeBron carried to the Finals were below .500 teams without him.
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: Reacher on February 12, 2023, 02:54:53 PM
Jordan also never had to beat dynasties like LA, San Antonio, and Golden State.
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: IVMP on February 12, 2023, 04:59:12 PM
Jordan also never had to beat dynasties like LA, San Antonio, and Golden State.

Nope. Just Detroit, L.A. with Magic, Seattle with Payton and Kemp, Utah with Malone and Stockton ...
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: illiniray on February 12, 2023, 05:44:03 PM
Jordan is one of two to average 30 ppg for a career.
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: illiniray on February 12, 2023, 05:48:36 PM
The Bulls had to get past some decent Pistons teams.
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: Reacher on February 12, 2023, 06:31:43 PM
Nope. Just Detroit, L.A. with Magic, Seattle with Payton and Kemp, Utah with Malone and Stockton ...

The early 90s lakers were a shell of their former selves. Seattle and Utah never even won a title. Yeah, I know partly because they played the Bulls. But those teams were not on par with what LeBron played against.
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: IVMP on February 12, 2023, 08:39:00 PM
The early 90s lakers were a shell of their former selves. Seattle and Utah never even won a title. Yeah, I know partly because they played the Bulls. But those teams were not on par with what LeBron played against.

Right. Like the time LeBron played the Celtics with Garnett and Pierce and got his ass handed to him. Complete laydown at the end. The Celtics could have put LeBron's balls on display after that pathetic performance.

LeBron sycophants conveniently forget about the game because he was dogging it for the entire fourth quarter.

Also, just to get out of the East, the Bulls had to get past solid Knicks, Pistons, Magic, and Pacers teams.

The Bulls' competition was better, and it's not even close.
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: Custard on February 12, 2023, 08:50:55 PM
I can see an argument to be made for LeBron. He’s certainly an all time great. I never felt like he had the je ne sais quoi of some of the Dream Team era guys.

Today’s game is nothing like it was 30 years ago. Maybe better in some ways, in other ways not so much. Man I miss those Bulls-Pistons and Bulls-Knicks series in those days. I don’t feel like there’s anything like that anymore.
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: Reacher on February 13, 2023, 02:27:53 AM
I can see an argument to be made for LeBron. He’s certainly an all time great. I never felt like he had the je ne sais quoi of some of the Dream Team era guys.

Today’s game is nothing like it was 30 years ago. Maybe better in some ways, in other ways not so much. Man I miss those Bulls-Pistons and Bulls-Knicks series in those days. I don’t feel like there’s anything like that anymore.

Very reasonable take. I mostly agree.
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: IVMP on February 13, 2023, 07:51:10 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mSjIUgrLAQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mSjIUgrLAQ)

LeBron quits vs. Celtics.
Title: Re: Who is #2?
Post by: illiniray on February 13, 2023, 01:13:43 PM
Wilt Chamberlain averaged 20 or more points and rebounds 10 times. The only others to have done it one time: Bob Pettit, Jerry Lucas, and Nate Thurmond. Pettit is considered the first power forward.

Dominique was one of my favorite players to watch.  As were Elgin Baylor, David Thompson, Dr. Dunkenstein, and Clyde Drexler. If Dr. J was the predecessor of MJ, Baylor was the predecessor of Dr. J. On Baylor's video now, he looks fairly pedestrian. Back in the day, his ability to hang in the air was considered amazing.