IlliniHQ 2
General Category => Fighting Illini Basketball Forum => Topic started by: frankiew on March 20, 2022, 02:36:09 PM
-
Not getting more time for freshman earlier in season
Melendez and Goode were solid today, actually Melendez was FANTASTIC today
Luke Goode played 27 games avg 8.5 mpg
7 of the first 11 games he average double digit for minutes he was 10-24 8-20 from 3 and only 2 turnovers in that time
After that , until today he only hit double digits ONCE against Michigan St where he played 28 minutes and put up 9 pts 4 rbs 2 assists BUT then the next game against NW he only played 5 minutes
R.J. played 21 games averaged 8 mpg. He played double digit minutes twice the first 5 games. He was solid
He got more playing time in towards end of season but he had his medical emergency which ended up hurting his momentum but he was playing solid
These guys should have been getting 12-15 mpg but BRAD was stubborn and stuck with the seniors
He had a guy play 29 mpg who oly averaged 4ppg and Grandison who fell off at the end of the year but BRAD kept relying on then when we could have had the freshman to help us out
They were more athletic, at least Melendez was
-
Yeah agreed. Sticking with Damonte was incredibly dumb. Melendez and Goode should’ve been getting more tick.
-
He had a boner for Damonte the last two years. Kept him in the lineup too long last year. We actually were nothing special until we made the switch.
Kept him in all year this year.
Guys backed him down all year and scored.
It was an urban myth he was a plus defender.
Only Trent was above average. The rest were not very good.
-
I would have rather had Frankie right now than Damonte.
-
I would have rather had Frankie right now than Damonte.
That goes without saying 😂
-
Random thought…
Did Frank come and watch Damonte play? I don’t recall ever seeing a crowd shot of him.
-
Yeah Frankie has been weird. Not sure what’s going on with him.
-
something was definitely not working at the start, and the first bunch of subs that came in were Payne and Bozmans-Verdonk
I can't figure how they were the answer to what was missing...
-
Damonte's a good kid, sure he tries hard and practiced hard. He just couldn't cut it offensively outside of his unsustainably hot 3 pt shooting last year.
-
something was definitely not working at the start, and the first bunch of subs that came in were Payne and Bozmans-Verdonk
I can't figure how they were the answer to what was missing...
Payne didn't play. BBV, Curbelo and Grandison came in.
-
Boy, this Wisconsin thing just sucks. Lol
-
Goode should have gotten more minutes after Grandison went down even though he is often a liability on defense. RJ was getting minutes and showing out but got hurt so that’s understandable.
Not sure what others are seeing about Damonte’s D. He had a big hand in creating some very inefficient nights for some of the best wing players in the conference. He and Trent got the two best toughest guards every night. Illinois had a top 25 KenPom defense.
Yeah, he got scored on at times by quicker or more athletic opponents, but everyone does. If we had a legit two way player to plug in that spot, I’m sure it would have been done. Gotta recruit better so we don’t have to choose between a super senior that can’t score and a freshman that can’t defend.
-
Yup. That’s officially the end of the Groce era. All Underwood going forward.
-
Goode should have gotten more minutes after Grandison went down even though he is often a liability on defense. RJ was getting minutes and showing out but got hurt so that’s understandable.
Not sure what others are seeing about Damonte’s D. He had a big hand in creating some very inefficient nights for some of the best wing players in the conference. He and Trent got the two best toughest guards every night. Illinois had a top 25 KenPom defense.
Yeah, he got scored on at times by quicker or more athletic opponents, but everyone does. If we had a legit two way player to plug in that spot, I’m sure it would have been done. Gotta recruit better so we don’t have to choose between a super senior that can’t score and a freshman that can’t defend.
Underwood has been here 5 years now. He hasn't found enough guys who can defend multiple positions and be able to switch on ball screens and not get killed. We got abused by multiple guards and wings all year even when Trent and Damonte went over screens. Today was no different.
The modern game you always talk about has been around for years. Nothing revelatory. We need more athletic and tougher players if Coach Popeye "I am what I am" insists on playing man to man every play.
He hasn't gotten them.
It doesn't take 5 years.
Half of these teams still playing have been rebuilt in less time than that. ISU went from 2 wins and scouring the scrap heap and making S16 in one year.
Underwood needs to find what we need in the portal and traditional recruiting and get the job done.
5 years. 2 NCAA wins. Those are the facts. No excuses.
-
Underwood’s substation patterns have always been poor.
-
I mean context is kind of important. Not making excuses but we have to be realistic.
Had to rebuild. We were likely a 5-6 seed two years ago and didn’t get to dance due to Covid. The immediate transfer provision wasn’t even around until last year. We had a lot of quality pieces returning so there didn’t seem a big need to go rebuild off the scrap heap like an ISU or Houston did.
Even so I’d still rather have our first B1G regular season championship than finish middle of the pack and go one game farther in a single elimination tournament. (Or maybe two since they got a favorable draw with Miami advancing.)
We would be in S16 if we had played Wisconsin today too. It’s all about being healthy and matchups. No one except the ISU fans will remember their little run by mid-April. We’ll have a banner hanging in our arena for a long time assuming the world doesn’t implode. May not mean much to some, but it’s a more lasting and defining achievement for most.
Our body of work over the last three years is objectively outstanding. Does that mean the work is done and there’s no room for improvement? Of course not.
Agree the program has to continue to grow and evolve and find ways to win at all phases. It starts with high level talent evaluation and acquisition. Scheme and development needs to be better too.
-
I mean context is kind of important. Not making excuses but we have to be realistic.
Had to rebuild. We were likely a 5-6 seed two years ago and didn’t get to dance due to Covid. The immediate transfer provision wasn’t even around until last year. We had a lot of quality pieces returning so there didn’t seem a big need to go rebuild off the scrap heap like an ISU or Houston did.
Even so I’d still rather have our first B1G regular season championship than finish middle of the pack and go one game farther in a single elimination tournament. (Or maybe two since they got a favorable draw with Miami advancing.)
We would be in S16 if we had played Wisconsin today too. It’s all about being healthy and matchups. No one except the ISU fans will remember their little run by mid-April. We’ll have a banner hanging in our arena for a long time assuming the world doesn’t implode. May not mean much to some, but it’s a more lasting and defining achievement for most.
Our body of work over the last three years is objectively outstanding. Does that mean the work is done and there’s no room for improvement? Of course not.
Agree the program has to continue to grow and evolve and find ways to win at all phases. It starts with high level talent evaluation and acquisition. Scheme and development needs to be better too.
Mostly reasonable, but you have to admit that Underwood has severely underperformed in his only two tournament appearances here. That’s concerning. Especially considering the golden goose probably isn’t coming back for his senior year.
-
Agree the program has to continue to grow and evolve and find ways to win at all phases. It starts with high level talent evaluation and acquisition. Scheme and development needs to be better too.
We agree on this. We disagree on how much success we have had or how it is perceived.
I thought the team in the COVID year was our best in the last three years- and Underwood's best coaching job by far.
Too bad as we might have won a few games in tourney. The toughest team mentally we have had in years.
-
Mostly reasonable, but you have to admit that Underwood has severely underperformed in his only two tournament appearances here. That’s concerning. Especially considering the golden goose probably isn’t coming back for his senior year.
Ok I will kind of buy that last year was a “severe underperformance” by seed.
But as we are seeing it’s becoming quite common to see 1 and 2 seeds knocked out early. We played a top ten KenPom and #16 ranked team in the second round for crying out loud. When was the last time that happened to a 1 seed in second round?
#1 Wichita State vs #8 Kentucky in 2014 is the closest I can find and Kentucky was 13th KenPom and 22nd in polls. Regardless of seed it’s hard to call losing to a top 20 team severely underperforming. There is simply more parity than there’s ever been.
And this year we lost to a team that was favored to beat us by 4.5 points. 4-5 games are usually a tossup. Historically, 4 seeds win their second round game 59% of the time while 5 seeds win 53% of the time. There’s literally no way you can spin losing what’s typically a toss up game as “severe underperformance.”
-
Mostly reasonable, but you have to admit that Underwood has severely underperformed in his only two tournament appearances here. That’s concerning. Especially considering the golden goose probably isn’t coming back for his senior year.
No analytics agree with you. But as long as we're all prepared to stipulate to your gut instincts, we can probably all agree with your conclusions.
-
Also, it's kinda charming to watch you lay down your aotc tracks in real time.
-
We agree on this. We disagree on how much success we have had or how it is perceived.
I thought the team in the COVID year was our best in the last three years- and Underwood's best coaching job by far.
Too bad as we might have won a few games in tourney. The toughest team mentally we have had in years.
I'm not sure the staff can impart mental toughness. Not to knock the players, but I think a lot of it has to come from them.
I think Underwood said during non-con that this is the softest team he's had.
We're a top 20-25 program again. We need to maintain that, and improve on it.
-
Robb is back! Yay!
Sure Custard, you can say this year we more or less “performed to seed.” But if we’re being honest, our last three tournament games were pure dog crap all the way around. That’s concerning.
-
Also, it's kinda charming to watch you lay down your aotc tracks in real time.
How so?
I guess Robb feels we’ve represented ourselves well in the last two tournaments. Not shocking.
-
FTR folks, I’m not talking just how far we’ve advanced. But it’s not like we played well and just lost to a good Loyola team. We’ve been pure dog crap in the tourney both years we were trendy picks to go deep.
-
FTR folks, I’m not talking just how far we’ve advanced. But it’s not like we played well and just lost to a good Loyola team. We’ve been pure dog crap in the tourney both years we were trendy picks to go deep.
We were also trendy picks to lose in the first round. Did you miss all that or even watch it?
-
We were also trendy picks to lose in the first round. Did you miss all that or even watch it?
Did you hear that PAMan!? Chattanooga was underseeded!
-
We were also trendy picks to lose in the first round. Did you miss all that or even watch it?
Could it be because we went into the tourney playing like horse dung?
-
Ok I will kind of buy that last year was a “severe underperformance” by seed.
But as we are seeing it’s becoming quite common to see 1 and 2 seeds knocked out early. We played a top ten KenPom and #16 ranked team in the second round for crying out loud. When was the last time that happened to a 1 seed in second round?
#1 Wichita State vs #8 Kentucky in 2014 is the closest I can find and Kentucky was 13th KenPom and 22nd in polls. Regardless of seed it’s hard to call losing to a top 20 team severely underperforming. There is simply more parity than there’s ever been.
And this year we lost to a team that was favored to beat us by 4.5 points. 4-5 games are usually a tossup. Historically, 4 seeds win their second round game 59% of the time while 5 seeds win 53% of the time. There’s literally no way you can spin losing what’s typically a toss up game as “severe underperformance.”
We were an underdog because it was no secret our team was in extremely poor form. We had the talent to compete and beat Houston, and we got steamrolled by a team that was limited offensively (and a team that was 1-4 against quad 1 in the regular season). Yes, Houston is a solid team, but please don’t make it sound like it was always an uphill battle to beat the mighty Cougars. We’ve played like absolute horse crap 3 tourney games in a row, and there’s no way around that.
-
If we’d have played well for a few games last year and throttled Chattanooga, I’d be more willing to write of Houston. 3 piss poor tourney games in a row is definitely a trend.
-
I'm not sure the staff can impart mental toughness. Not to knock the players, but I think a lot of it has to come from them.
I think Underwood said during non-con that this is the softest team he's had.
We're a top 20-25 program again. We need to maintain that, and improve on it.
Underwood and his tough guy/big dick were supposed to make our players mentally tough. What happened?
-
Could it be because we went into the tourney playing like horse dung?
You’re changing the argument and moving the goalposts now. Nobody is arguing that.
-
I’ve said it over and over. Tournament losses happen. Unlike PAMan, I have not harped on Loyola incessantly. As Miles pointed out, I’m the “bites at the apple” guy. Sure, looking at it objectively we lost to a tough 8 seed and a tough 5 seed. But also looking at it objectively, who is willing to say we’ve played anything resembling quality basketball our last 3 tourney games. They’ve been abominations pretty much from the opening tip.
There’s middle ground here, folks.
-
You’re changing the argument and moving the goalposts now. Nobody is arguing that.
No, you’re changing the argument. “How could we be expected to beat Houston as an underdog?”
-
We were an underdog because it was no secret our team was in extremely poor form. We had the talent to compete and beat Houston, and we got steamrolled by a team that was limited offensively (and a team that was 1-4 against quad 1 in the regular season). Yes, Houston is a solid team, but please don’t make it sound like it was always an uphill battle to beat the mighty Cougars. We’ve played like absolute horse crap 3 tourney games in a row, and there’s no way around that.
There were probably reasons we were in poor form offensively. Can you think of any? How many rotation players were less than 100% due to injuries or illness?
I also thought both the Mocs (wtf is that?) and the Cougars were difficult match ups for us due to their length and physicality.
Also, teams figured out how to guard us and we were not very good at exploiting what they gave us. Partly due to injuries, partly due to not playing RJ and Goode earlier and more often, partly due to roster weaknesses.
Also, I think both years our guys were tight, felt some pressure to perform.
-
No, you’re changing the argument. “How could we be expected to beat Houston as an underdog?”
Again, nobody said that. You stated we were a popular pick to win. I pointed out we were a very popular pick to get upset as well. We were also an underdog in a few in Vegas as well.
-
Again, nobody said that. You stated we were a popular pick to win. I pointed out we were a very popular pick to get upset as well. We were also an underdog in a few in Vegas as well.
I thought we were a an underdog in Vegas betting?
-
JFC Houston is a good team, but they aren’t a juggernaut.
I know thinking on multiple levels is hard for you guys, but the fact remains of our last 120 minutes of NCAA Tournament play we’ve played maybe 15 minutes of respectable basketball. We didn’t get overwhelmed by juggernauts. We wet the bed.
I won’t even make a big deal of the bed wetting in the BTT. Our last 160 minutes of post-season play has been atrocious.
That, and Loyola and Houston were good teams can both be true.
-
I thought we were a an underdog in Vegas betting?
We were. But should we have been a decided underdog to a team that was 1-4 against quad 1? I’d argue perhaps not. It was just based off current form. If we’ve played up to our potential at all the last month, we’d have probably been favorites.
-
I remember getting shot down on “what Vegas thinks” when it comes to other topics like Bears win totals et al. Now all of a sudden what Vegas thinks is important…
-
JFC Houston is a good team, but they aren’t a juggernaut.
I know thinking on multiple levels is hard for you guys, but the fact remains of our last 120 minutes of NCAA Tournament play we’ve played maybe 15 minutes of respectable basketball. We didn’t get overwhelmed by juggernauts. We wet the bed.
I won’t even make a big deal of the bed wetting in the BTT. Our last 160 minutes of post-season play has been atrocious.
That, and Loyola and Houston were good teams can both be true.
Again, nobody’s arguing with you about this. I agree with this. Why are you arguing with yourself?
-
Again, nobody’s arguing with you about this. I agree with this. Why are you arguing with yourself?
It seems you’re quibbling.
-
You’re kind of buffering the we played like utter shit point with “we weren’t expected to win anyway.”
-
https://247sports.com/college/illinois/Article/Illinois-basketball-loses-second-round-game-to-Houston-in-NCAA-Tournament-Illini-head-coach-Brad-Underwood-184896152/
-
It was a tough season, no doubt. But even when healthy we never knew what rotations would be used, which couple of guys who played 18 minutes last game wouldn’t play at all today. Underwood did not have his team prepared for post-season play.
-
It seems you’re quibbling.
No I’m stating that we definitely weren’t playing to our potential, thus Houston was picked to win by a lot of people and might’ve been the better team and it could’ve been argued they were before regardless of how we were playing. I mentioned during the game how their guards looked like Greek Gods compared to ours. The were much more physical. Yes I believe we shit the bed too, but I think the better team won that day. It happens in a single elimination tournament quite a bit on both sides. See Kentucky and then see Michigan. Underwood definitely needs to figure something out. I’m not quite ready to say it’s a huge issue because we are still taking step in the right direction and with him we will have plenty of bites at the apple as you would say. I’m excited about that. Am I disappointed, yes. I think he’ll figure it out. If not and this happens again, I’ll definitely look at it differently.
-
I’m not arguing that Underwood hasn’t dramatically improved the program. It’s a much healthier program than it was 5 years ago. But there’s no sugar coating the last two (and only two under Underwood) NCAA tournaments have been abysmal. Our only accomplishments were beating a 16 seed and finding a way to lead a 13 seed for 25 seconds of the game.
I don’t want Underwood fired. Just calling balls and strikes. And not lowering my NCAA Tournament expectations to explain away very poor performances.
-
That’s fair. I’m not lowering my tournament expectations either, but understand those things will happen. Does that make it ok? No, but I think he’ll figure it out and we’re headed in the right direction regardless. Those two things can also be true. Like I stated I’ll give him another opportunity in the tourney before I see it as a real big issue. For example, go back and look at Jay Wright’s resume history.
Edit- I’m not saying Underwood’s resume will end up like Wright’s, I’m just pointing it out that two years of second round exits in a single-elimination tourney aren’t necessarily indicative of someone being a bad coach or what not. Or not being able to get past that point. It happens to the best of them more often than not.
-
Tempo versus Scout Board Merrymen is entertaining and disappointing viewing simultaneously.
-
Tempo versus Scout Board Merrymen is entertaining and disappointing viewing simultaneously.
Oh look here comes the troll.
-
The way we played this past month, no one should be surprised we lost yesterday. I was genuinely surprised when I kept hearing "experts" say Illinois could go on a deep run.
Last year's loss to Loyola was much, much more deflating because that team was playing great basketball.
We had won 11 of the last 12 regular season games
Won the Big Ten tournament
Beat Drexel by 29 in the first round
THAT should have been a Final Four team.
-
Agreed
-
The way we played this past month, no one should be surprised we lost yesterday. I was genuinely surprised when I kept hearing "experts" say Illinois could go on a deep run.
Last year's loss to Loyola was much, much more deflating because that team was playing great basketball.
We had won 11 of the last 12 regular season games
Won the Big Ten tournament
Beat Drexel by 29 in the first round
THAT should have been a Final Four team.
yes
-
That’s fair. I’m not lowering my tournament expectations either, but understand those things will happen.
Again we’re probably quibbling over very small differences, but 3 extremely poor games in a row is a trend. Not calling for Underwood’s job. Just recognizing we shat the bed two years in a row.
-
And unless Kofi and Belo both come back, it could be a while before we’re positioned to go deep into the tourney again anytime soon.
-
And unless Kofi and Belo both come back, it could be a while before we’re positioned to go deep into the tourney again anytime soon.
As I’ve said several times before, Kofi’s ball dominance has a way of dramatically raising our floor and lowering our ceiling. Running offense through a guy like Kofi is not a Final Four recipe.
If Kofi stayed at the bare minimum we’d need to add a capable change of pace guy like a Trevion Williams for nights like last night where the monster traditional big in Edey is getting neutralized by swarming. Payne proved this year he was not that. And what impact transfer wants to come sit behind a three year starter who plays over 30 mins a game?
Honestly I think had Grandison and RJ stayed healthy we would have seen Hawkins at the 5 more down the stretch and said as much a few weeks ago. And he was effective when he played it at that time. That lineup would have made us a fair amount more modern and versatile for certain matchups.
As far as Belo goes hard telling if he’ll ever get back to what he could be. Not sure the last time we had such a tantalizing yet aggravating player. I wouldn’t bank on him by any means. We need to get experienced slashing wing/ball handler and a versatile big in the portal to bridge the gap until the young guys mature.
-
As I’ve said several times before, Kofi’s ball dominance has a way of dramatically raising our floor and lowering our ceiling. Running offense through a guy like Kofi is not a Final Four recipe.
Just depends on who you pair him with. Pair him with Jaden Ivey or even a better version of Andre Curbelo than we saw this year, the combo would be devastating. Any team with turnover prone, streaky shooting, middling passing guards is vulnerable in the tourney.
-
Frank or Deron Williams with Kofi is a national champion.
-
You’re just bending yourself into a pretzel to explain away our deficiencies.
-
I’m using logic and statistics to make objectively true statements. Find me the last time a guy like Kofi played 30+ minutes for the Final Four let alone National Title team.
Look at Purdue last night. They swarmed Edey (2/6 shooting) and made it difficult for him so he only played 14 mins. They brought in their versatile passing stretch 5 6th man and he ends up playing almost 26 minutes and goes 10/13 for 22/7. They exploited the matchup with a more versatile, mobile player.
We didn’t have that anything close to that luxury unless we used Hawkins to do it which went out the window when Grandison effectively went down for the season.
Playing guys like Kofi 30* minutes creates opportunities of course but also some bottlenecks and limitations because he limits the pace at which the team can play and what they can do in transition. A guy like Kofi is a great weapon. We really needed Payne to be better and be able to play 10-15 minutes per game to give us a different look. I would have played Hawkins at the 5 more when Grandison was healthy and given Kofi more rest.
-
You’re using pseudo logic to explain away our problems. Having a 1st team All-American low post behemoth on your roster doesn’t cap your upside. I’d argue having small, not particularly extra-athletic streaky shooting, middling passing guards who aren’t particularly adept at getting themselves open against solid defense caps your upside more.
Your pseudo-intellectual basketball takes need to be called out more often. Sure, sounds great, because you can’t disprove it, and Kofi is an anomaly in the modern game; but it’s akin to the “the results speak for themselves” when Ayo was out. Kofi wasn’t ball dominant because he’s Kofi. He was ball dominant because we didn’t have more or equally reliable options.
-
Our lack of effectiveness in the screen game capped our upside more than Kofi. The lack of ability to run and cut hurt this team. The step backs 3s look great when they’re falling, though.
-
Which came first? The chicken or the egg? Didn't the offense have to go through him because he was the only consistent weapon after Ayo left? If you put Kofi on the 2005 team, he isn't getting double- and triple-teamed is he?
-
Hate to say this, but we haven't had a true effective point/lead guard since McCamey.
Ayo was a scoring wing playing point. Trent has been a small shooting guard playing point.
Before that we had nine years of Tracy Abrams and a cast of characters. Abrams was also a converted shooting guard.
It is hard to find lead guards with leadership skills, ball skills, and distributing skills.
Curbelo was just fcking crazy this year. Killed us out there and we really went downhill on offensive movement and flow after he came back with major minutes.
-
Basically we are at the "Glad [insert name of best player] is leaving" portion of the grieving.
-
Our lack of effectiveness in the screen game capped our upside more than Kofi. The lack of ability to run and cut hurt this team. The step backs 3s look great when they’re falling, though.
If you don't mind, I would like further explanation re: our "lack of effectiveness in the screen game." Is that a point of emphasis for this team? Were we screening poorly? Not screening at all?
Run and cut. Again, please explain.
I will say, I saw, more than once, Kofi set a high screen, then roll like a motherfucker to the basket, and Curbelo is standing up top pounding a hole in the floor. It's like he's never seen, or even heard of, a rolling big hauling ass toward the basket. Is that what you mean by lack of effectiveness? Because if so, I 100% agree.
-
Basically we are at the "Glad [insert name of best player] is leaving" portion of the grieving.
No, facts are facts. Curbelo had a KenPom Off Eff Rating of 82.1. Beyond bad. 100 is pretty much neutral. It was a net negative by any objective or subjective measure.
No doubt we were hoping he would recover, but it was obvious he couldn't or wouldn't. Not sure which it was.
Last year he was only 101.8. and people were going crazy over him. He really wasn't under control until last third of the year.
We all liked his potential, but that is what it was.
He still can't make anything beyond a layup or 10 footer and he is a much worse ballhandler now.
For reference- Damonte who was a total nothingburger was 100.8 this year.
A very good lead guard like Gillespie was 123.9.
Nembhard is 119.
Bohannon of all people 121.6 (low TOs, high EFG%, OK Ass rate)
Toussaint who is a mixed bag was 103.3
Xavier Johnson 102.2
Davonte Jones who is going to tear us a new asshole the next couple years is 110.7
Jaylon Tate was 98.5 for chrissakes.
I hope a healthy coachabale team oriented under control Curbelo comes back.
Otherwise maybe it is better he moves on.
-
No, facts are facts. Curbelo had a KenPom Off Eff Rating of 82.1. Beyond bad. 100 is pretty much neutral. It was a net negative by any objective or subjective measure.
No doubt we were hoping he would recover, but it was obvious he couldn't or wouldn't. Not sure which it was.
Last year he was only 101.8. and people were going crazy over him. He really wasn't under control until last third of the year.
We all liked his potential, but that is what it was.
He still can't make anything beyond a layup or 10 footer and he is a much worse ballhandler now.
For reference- Damonte who was a total nothingburger was 100.8 this year.
A very good lead guard like Gillespie was 123.9.
Nembhard is 119.
Bohannon of all people 121.6 (low TOs, high EFG%, OK Ass rate)
Toussaint who is a mixed bag was 103.3
Xavier Johnson 102.2
Davonte Jones who is going to tear us a new asshole the next couple years is 110.7
Jaylon Tate was 98.5 for chrissakes.
I hope a healthy coachabale team oriented under control Curbelo comes back.
Otherwise maybe it is better he moves on.
I did not know that Curbelo replaced Kofi as the Illini's best player.
-
I did not know that Curbelo replaced Kofi as the Illini's best player.
He didn't. You posted a comment after my post about point guards, and Curbelo who by all accounts is not returning.
But you like to be butthurt and argumentative about everything here so carry the fuck on.
I actually think Kofi was our best overall player, a very good college player, but pretty limited and had major passing, face up, and defensive weaknesses which will prevent him from ever seeing an NBA court much at all.
-
He didn't. You posted a comment after my post about point guards, and Curbelo who by all accounts is not returning.
But you like to be butthurt and argumentative about everything here so carry the fuck on.
I actually think Kofi was our best overall player, a very good college player, but pretty limited and had major passing, face up, and defensive weaknesses which will prevent him from ever seeing an NBA court much at all.
Aren't we a self-centered little mutt? No one said Curbelo was the best player (well, JudgeJudy did say he will be an NBA HOF'er). Yet, for example, we just had Custard and Tempo going back and forth about the ceilings and floors Illinois has with Kofi. Yet again, Illinois' best player gets the "Glad he is gone next year" {WHOM NO ONE HAS SAID IS CURBELO} treatment, just like Ayo did last year.
So, carry on with your dogshit.
-
Why do people get mad at each other when Illinois shits the bed? It’s none of our faults. And nobody’s opinion on here is really worth that much of a shit.
Interesting phenomenon.
-
Why do people get mad at each other when Illinois shits the bed? It’s none of our faults. And nobody’s opinion on here is really worth that much of a shit.
Interesting phenomenon.
We allow it to happen by supporting such incompetence year after year (and sending our kids to Champaign). Second part is definitely true. Must be the lead in the water.
-
I'll go back to pre-season ......
We have better shooters on occasion. Living by the sword is also dying by the sword when the shooters are off.
This team never embraced consistent defense.
I've harped on turnovers since year 1 of Underwood. We had some good games this year, moreso than previous years, but we sure don't mind throwing the ball away too often.
(https://i.ibb.co/xGWrwV1/Screenshot-20220321-171758.jpg) (https://ibb.co/y5txKL6)
-
Aren't we a self-centered little mutt? No one said Curbelo was the best player (well, JudgeJudy did say he will be an NBA HOF'er). Yet, for example, we just had Custard and Tempo going back and forth about the ceilings and floors Illinois has with Kofi. Yet again, Illinois' best player gets the "Glad he is gone next year" {WHOM NO ONE HAS SAID IS CURBELO} treatment, just like Ayo did last year.
So, carry on with your dogshit.
Always blame the best player when things go wrong. Can’t miss move.
-
Why do people get mad at each other when Illinois shits the bed? It’s none of our faults. And nobody’s opinion on here is really worth that much of a shit.
Interesting phenomenon.
Very true.
-
He didn't. You posted a comment after my post about point guards, and Curbelo who by all accounts is not returning.
But you like to be butthurt and argumentative about everything here so carry the fuck on.
I actually think Kofi was our best overall player, a very good college player, but pretty limited and had major passing, face up, and defensive weaknesses which will prevent him from ever seeing an NBA court much at all.
Kofi was limited, but so were our guards. They just weren’t special in any way. Good players but not national title caliber.
-
It was a tough season, no doubt. . Underwood did not have his team prepared for post-season play.
I’d argue this team played mediocre or bad for 80% of the year. How many games this year could you say the team played a full good game?
Arizona and Purdue at home - both losses.
At Indiana
At Michigan
Wisconsin
Rutgers
Mizzou
7 out of 30+ games playing at a high level is pretty shitty.
-
I’d argue this team played mediocre or bad for 80% of the year. How many games this year could you say the team played a full good game?
Arizona and Purdue at home - both losses.
At Indiana
At Michigan
Wisconsin
Rutgers
Mizzou
7 out of 30+ games playing at a high level is pretty shitty.
I would mostly agree, actually. I gave him the benefit of the doubt based on his last two teams getting better as the season went along. But once everyone was mostly healthy, the team regressed if anything.
-
You’re using pseudo logic to explain away our problems. Having a 1st team All-American low post behemoth on your roster doesn’t cap your upside. I’d argue having small, not particularly extra-athletic streaky shooting, middling passing guards who aren’t particularly adept at getting themselves open against solid defense caps your upside more.
Your pseudo-intellectual basketball takes need to be called out more often. Sure, sounds great, because you can’t disprove it, and Kofi is an anomaly in the modern game; but it’s akin to the “the results speak for themselves” when Ayo was out. Kofi wasn’t ball dominant because he’s Kofi. He was ball dominant because we didn’t have more or equally reliable options.
It’s hilarious how you slap the “pseudo” on things you can’t comprehend.
No, having Kofi on our team doesn’t lower our ceiling.
Here’s what does: No one is going to come be a complimentary player (like a Trevion Williams type) knowing Kofi is an AA and going to play 30+ minutes and get most of the touches. So that lowers the ceiling for 10 mins/game when Kofi is out.
Then he’s huge and not quick down the floor so that limits transition opportunities.
And other teams with mobile bigs that can shoot can pull him away from the basket where he is a huge liability and can’t protect the rim.
And teams know he is no threat whatsoever if they can push him off the block so when he catches the ball 12-15 feet from the bucket they can swarm him and force a bad pass out of the double or triple team.
All of these issues lower the team’s ceiling for 30+ mins per game.
Sure if you pair him with a guy like Ayo or Ivey and a really good change of pace small ball 5 you’ve got something. Easier said than done.
-
What’s cool is no one can prove you wrong. Therefore you look smart.
-
There are lots of ways to win basketball games.
-
[Here’s what does: No one is going to come be a complimentary player (like a Trevion Williams type) knowing Kofi is an AA and going to play 30+ minutes and get most of the touches. So that lowers the ceiling for 10 mins/game when Kofi is out]
This is just you talking out your ass.
-
You could just say teams whose #1 option is a center are going to be worse than teams with a #1 option of a lead guard if the players are comparable.
Where Illinois will miss Kofi the most is on defense. Look how Illinois played defense before him.
-
[Here’s what does: No one is going to come be a complimentary player (like a Trevion Williams type) knowing Kofi is an AA and going to play 30+ minutes and get most of the touches. So that lowers the ceiling for 10 mins/game when Kofi is out]
This is just you talking out your ass.
Let’s say you’re a 20 year old versatile 5 and you’re and in between your soph and junior years in college. You’re transferring hoping to find a place to better develop and showcase your game because, like everyone else, you have pro aspirations.
Do you transfer to Illinois and compete for playing time with an All American, or go to another quality P5 program that really needs a 5 and get starter minutes right away?
This isn’t difficult man
-
Still waiting for Tempo to provide me a recent or even recent-ish example of a program making a FF or winning a title with a guy like Kofi playing big minutes. With or without elite guard play.
I have one in mind that’s kind of a fit. That played with 4-5 future pro guards/wings and another cup of coffee NBA big.
-
Let’s say you’re a 20 year old versatile 5 and you’re and in between your soph and junior years in college. You’re transferring hoping to find a place to better develop and showcase your game because, like everyone else, you have pro aspirations.
Do you transfer to Illinois and compete for playing time with an All American, or go to another quality P5 program that really needs a 5 and get starter minutes right away?
This isn’t difficult man
Isn't the response, even though he was not a transfer seeking PT, Ayo? Things seemed to work out here for the kid. Isn't the pitch to that kid, hey, here is a center who will be a great complimentary player with you, get you the ball when doubled (HA!), will open things up outside for you, blah blah blah?
-
Isn't the response, even though he was not a transfer seeking PT, Ayo? Things seemed to work out here for the kid. Isn't the pitch to that kid, hey, here is a center who will be a great complimentary player with you, get you the ball when doubled (HA!), will open things up outside for you, blah blah blah?
I think that’s a legit argument to be made for wing players or an impact PG—I’m quite sure that exact pitch was sold to Alfonso Plummer.
Don’t think it’s effective for a high quality player who is going to be competing for playing time with Kofi, which was my primary point.
We did pick up Payne last offseason before Kofi, as expected, declared for the draft. And Giorgi left. I don’t think many, including staff, expected either back and Payne at that time made some sense as a depth piece given we had almost no one else on the roster that looked like they could help.
We actively pursued other, better, bigs throughout Kofi’s process but didn’t get much traction. Probably didn’t help that we had so much staff turnover in the meantime.
-
Still waiting for Tempo to provide me a recent or even recent-ish example of a program making a FF or winning a title with a guy like Kofi playing big minutes. With or without elite guard play.
I have one in mind that’s kind of a fit. That played with 4-5 future pro guards/wings and another cup of coffee NBA big.
Not many players are exactly alike, but mostly similar players that come to mind are Jahlil Okafor, Karl Anthony Towns, Tyler Hansbrough, jared Sullinger, Thomas Robinson, and DeMarcus Cousins.
-
How about a top 100 6-9 260 lb big with a 7-6 wing span and good ball handling, low post, and face up skills? If Kofi returns, he could play some 4. With Hawkins back, and some improvement from Payne, Kofi could get more rest.
-
How about a top 100 6-9 260 lb big with a 7-6 wing span and good ball handling, low post, and face up skills? If Kofi returns, he could play some 4. With Hawkins back, and some improvement from Payne, Kofi could get more rest.
Who is this person you speak of?
-
Dainja I’m guessing
-
Gotcha. I just don’t see why Kofi would come back honestly. It won’t benefit him really in any way. He’s not gonna come back and wanna take a backseat to anyone. He can make comparable money overseas and possibly in the G League. The one scenario is he wants to break records, lead Illinois to possibly a National Championship, and go down as arguably the greatest player ever at Illinois. His legacy. I just don’t see those as being more important to him than his ultimate goal of somehow playing on an NBA roster. I’d love if he did come back and illiniray listed some good points, but I think that’s just our fans wishful thinking.
Edit- and I’m sure Kofi is sick of getting literally abused by other players beating him up ever night. That wouldn’t be allowed in the G League, overseas, or the NBA. That’s pretty enticing if you ask me.
-
Dainja I’m guessing
If he can do half of what nichi says he's an improvement from Payne
-
Gotcha. I just don’t see why Kofi would come back honestly. It won’t benefit him really in any way. He’s not gonna come back and wanna take a backseat to anyone. He can make comparable money overseas and possibly in the G League. The one scenario is he wants to break records, lead Illinois to possibly a National Championship, and go down as arguably the greatest player ever at Illinois. His legacy. I just don’t see those as being more important to him than his ultimate goal of somehow playing on an NBA roster. I’d love if he did come back and illiniray listed some good points, but I think that’s just our fans wishful thinking.
Edit- and I’m sure Kofi is sick of getting literally abused by other players beating him up ever night. That wouldn’t be allowed in the G League, overseas, or the NBA. That’s pretty enticing if you ask me.
Not sure why he wouldn’t come back, honestly. Unless he just really doesn’t like school. He’s no lock to even get drafted. NIL money could be somewhat lucrative, and he gets another year to work on his game and improve his stock (and maybe a Final Four).
No way to know what’s in a kids heart, though.
-
I have no idea how Kofi and Dainja would work together defensively, but it would be interesting to find out.
-
I have no idea how Kofi and Dainja would work together defensively, but it would be interesting to find out.
Don’t know, but Dainja is an awesome name for a basketball player.
-
Dainja Payne
yes
-
If he can do half of what nichi says he's an improvement from Payne
His highlights are pretty impressive. Better than most highlight videos I see. Supposedly can be even more explosive with better conditioning, which is one of the easier fixes. This is exciting. I’d forgotten we had him in the fold.
https://youtu.be/ClIhfAa8Mdo
If Kofi and Curbelo come back this team could have a high ceiling.
-
Not sure why he wouldn’t come back, honestly. Unless he just really doesn’t like school. He’s no lock to even get drafted. NIL money could be somewhat lucrative, and he gets another year to work on his game and improve his stock (and maybe a Final Four).
No way to know what’s in a kids heart, though.
Kofi is pretty much what he is I think. Very very good physically dominant at college level strictly back to basket low post player.
Not a natural shot blocker or quick jumper. Has no face up game or driving ability.
Cannot guard in space, switch to guard wings or lead guards, and we got eaten alive with pullups in his drop coverage all year.
Not really a rim runner.
None of that translates to next level.
Is undrafted or late second round at best in most all mock drafts.
In this aggregate ranking he is not even in Top 96 players. He is old by NBA development standards.
https://hoopshype.com/lists/nba-mock-draft-espn-the-athletic-sports-illustrated-bleacher-report/ (https://hoopshype.com/lists/nba-mock-draft-espn-the-athletic-sports-illustrated-bleacher-report/)
He is in tough spot. He is 23 years old this year.
Wish him all the best. He has given 110% for three years.
Hope he makes some serious money overseas.
I think this might be like last year where he assesses options and makes a decision later again. I wish he would make the call early.
The problem for us is we will not land any other impact post guys if it drags out. I noticed several of the bigs we were working on last year landed other places, and they certainly are looking for NCAA bound loaded teams which we are not projected to be.
-
Why did Dainja sit the whole year? Aren’t they pretty much giving everyone eligibility these days?
-
His highlights are pretty impressive. Better than most highlight videos I see. Supposedly can be even more explosive with better conditioning, which is one of the easier fixes. This is exciting. I’d forgotten we had him in the fold.
https://youtu.be/ClIhfAa8Mdo
If Kofi and Curbelo come back this team could have a high ceiling.
Dainja looks impressive if he can do any of that versus college defenses.
Should be productive for us.
Could play the 4 if Kofi does return.
I am not a fan of Curbelo at this point unless there is some major transformation in his overall approach, his shooting, and his decision making. This isn't an And1 Exhibition tour out there.
-
Why did Dainja sit the whole year? Aren’t they pretty much giving everyone eligibility these days?
I may have this wrong, but I think he came mid year didn't he? I don't know if he could have played or not second semester.
-
I may have this wrong, but I think he came mid year didn't he? I don't know if he could have played or not second semester.
I think he has been able to practice with the team since his arrival.
-
Dainja looks impressive if he can do any of that versus college defenses.
Should be productive for us.
Could play the 4 if Kofi does return.
I am not a fan of Curbelo at this point unless there is some major transformation in his overall approach, his shooting, and his decision making. This isn't an And1 Exhibition tour out there.
Curbelo needs to work on being a pass first point guard and taking care of the ball, when he does that he's great... when he's shooting or retardedly trying to split double teams with a dribble or just being a black hole ball hog... ugh terrible, just run the fucking offense and your stats will come
-
Nm
-
Added to the roster in January and practicing per Brett Behrens.
"The 6-foot-9, 270-pound forward redshirted with the Bears last season, with the team winning the NCAA title. After suiting up in the team’s first three games this season, he entered the transfer portal, ending up in Champaign. It means he will have to sit out the 2021-22 season."
-
Curbelo needs to work on being a pass first point guard and taking care of the ball, when he does that he's great... when he's shooting or retardedly trying to split double teams with a dribble or just being a black hole ball hog... ugh terrible, just run the fucking offense and your stats will come
Spark?
-
Spark?
he's retarding the team's offense
-
he's retarding the team's offense
Probably fagging it up, too.
-
His highlights are pretty impressive. Better than most highlight videos I see. Supposedly can be even more explosive with better conditioning, which is one of the easier fixes. This is exciting. I’d forgotten we had him in the fold.
https://youtu.be/ClIhfAa8Mdo
If Kofi and Curbelo come back this team could have a high ceiling.
That pass at the .036 second mark is pretty sick....the kid has handles and is more of NBA caliber 5 than Kofi is/was.