IlliniHQ 2
General Category => Fighting Illini Basketball Forum => Topic started by: Tempotime on March 21, 2021, 06:10:02 PM
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Pretty much a fact. Anyone that watched the Michigan and Wisconsin road games would agree.
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Pretty much a fact. Anyone that watched the Michigan, Wisconsin and Ohio State road games would agree.
True, but too small a sample size to draw any definitive conclusions from.
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Ayo played in the Ohio St road game though.
You suck.
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True, but too small a sample size to draw any definitive conclusions from.
Maybe, but Michigan was #2 at the time and we beat them by 23 without Ayo. That’s pretty much all the sample size I need.
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So disappointing today
worse than when Frankie wouldnt show up
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2 or 3 wins in a row without him was impressive; but too small a sample size. Now if we’d rattled off 6 in a row without him, and included say Iowa? A lot more chicken on that bone.
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So disappointing today
worse than when Frankie wouldnt show up
The mistake Frank made was not leaving for the NBA after the elite 8 year as it cost him his draft stock as he dominated that years tourney. But I’ll take Frank over Ayo or anyone else minus Dee and Deron any day. Frank was “showtime” period. The problem with Ayo for the most part this season is he was more concerned with his “numbers” for NBA purposes versus making the TEAM better, which also would’ve helped his draft stock.
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Maybe, but Michigan was #2 at the time and we beat them by 23 without Ayo. That’s pretty much all the sample size I need.
when n=1 that isn't a good sample size
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when n=1 that isn't a good sample size
Jesus Christ. Even when the result is right in front of their faces they still make excuses for Ayo. Heck, anyone can average 20 points a game on 25-30 shots a game.
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Jesus Christ. Even when the result is right in front of their faces they still make excuses for Ayo. Heck, anyone can average 20 points a game on 25-30 shots a game.
Raise your game, or I’ll be lobbying Custard to drop the ban hammer.
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Raise your game, or I’ll be lobbying Custard to drop the ban hammer.
I think I raised my game to the point that you have to use backdoor politics to get rid of people.
As for the last part, heck, wouldn’t be the first time for me 🤣🤣🤣... Thats why I’m a legend.
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I think I raised my game to the point that you have to use backdoor politics to get rid of people.
As for the last part, heck, wouldn’t be the first time for me 🤣🤣🤣... Thats why I’m a legend.
Why didn’t you just call yourself Legendtime, then?
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Why didn’t you just call yourself Legendtime, then?
Because I knew this would aggravate you🤣🤣🤣
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Because I knew this would aggravate you🤣🤣🤣
Get your batting average over the Mendoza Line and I’ll be less aggravated.
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Raise your game, or I’ll be lobbying Custard to drop the ban hammer.
I have never really thought out banworthy scenarios, just figured it would be one of those “I know it when I see it” type of things. And I’d never even considered banning anyone to this point.
But after reading a handful of tempotime posts just before I saw your post, I did feel the first tickle.
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I should just change my name to Truth. They seem to ban the truth around here.
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Meh. You could just leave, too.
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Meh. You could just leave, too.
Nah. What would the point in that be. I don’t want to be a Jobu. I want to be the guy they talk about for being banned because he ticked off tempo too much and told the truth.
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I know now what my username should’ve been.
Tempotantrum. He has one every 5 seconds 🤣🤣🤣
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That’s the reality folks. We could’ve beaten Wisconsin ten times or the Chicago Bulls.
Only thing I’m going to remember about this season is getting housed by Loyola Chicago.
But this is what happens when we’ve settled for mediocrity for 15 years.
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Let me make this real simple for everyone for why I say this. I have my reasoning.
First half of this season. Ayo, Ayo, Ayo while most everyone else stands around for Ayo to do something. Even Kofi took a backseat to him.
Ayo gets hurt. Starting 5 were or probably close to averaging double digits a game. 4-5 players every game averaging double digits. It’s not science. It’s simple math and I get it he’s good. Team good? Don’t know. Hopefully in the NBA.
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It really was a simple coaching fix.
Play better defense. Give the ball to Kofi every possession because they had no answer for him.
But according to the analysts. Kofi was clogging the lane too much for the guards to take contested inside shots.
Heck. Kofi probably could’ve had 50 points this game, but it is what it is. #settleformediocrity
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I know now what my username should’ve been.
Tempotantrum. He has one every 5 seconds 🤣🤣🤣
Ok, so this is your only good post so far.
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Ok, so this is your only good post so far.
Why? Because I don’t sugarcoat the mediocrity like some of the rest of you do?🤣🤣🤣
Join the let’s make excuses because they were Loyola crowd. They’re still a mid major anyway you spit shine it.
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Lou Henson said, paraphrasing, that teams often play better in the short run if their star player is sidelined. That's because the other guys are motivated to step up. It can also be a boost to team oriented play. However, the star is the star for a reason. This generally only lasts for a couple games. We were quite a bit better with Ayo.
Lot's of reasons we lost.
Loyola was a 3 or 4 seed quality opponent that played really well. Some days, your opponent beats you.
Our guys had been playing with a chip on their shoulder since the MSU game. They had been dissed and had something to prove. Now, they were the favorites. Different psychology.
The coaches probably knew LU-I was better than their seed, but convincing the players was another thing.
I may be wrong, but it seems like early starts favor underdogs.
Larry Scirotto.
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Lou Henson said, paraphrasing, that teams often play better in the short run if their star player is sidelined. That's because the other guys are motivated to step up. It can also be a boost to team oriented play. However, the star is the star for a reason. This generally only lasts for a couple games. We were quite a bit better with Ayo.
Lot's of reasons we lost.
Loyola was a 3 or 4 seed quality opponent that played really well. Some days, your opponent beats you.
Our guys had been playing with a chip on their shoulder since the MSU game. They had been dissed and had something to prove. Now, they were the favorites. Different psychology.
The coaches probably knew LU-I was better than their seed, but convincing the players was another thing.
I may be wrong, but it seems like early starts favor underdogs.
Larry Scirotto.
Agree
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We had a week to prepare for Loyola.
They played well. We knew what they do.
Yesterday they iced the ballhandler every time in PnR. Common maneuver. Staff should have prepped guards and screener how to handle it. We allowed the trap to set every time. Only Curbelo knew how to try and put a defender on your ass to split it before.
Our spacing was terrible all day. Allowed other defenders to dig at ball handler or quickly trap.
On D if staff were prepped for tourney overall used a basic match-up zone simply to make them adjust. Might have stopped the uncontested 8 footers since Kofi can't move out in space, and grade school backdoors they ran on our clueless D.
Wisconsin beat them easily.
They would be about 10-10 in BT.
Only thing we did was more of what wasn't working.
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Remember this is a coach who had to have his kids friend explain to him how his go to defense he ran at lower level jobs (didn't work at OSU either) wasn't working.
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Ok, so this is your only good post so far.
No, by far his best post is when he said “I arrest my case.”
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No, by far his best post is when he said “I arrest my case.”
I must’ve missed that one. I went back and looked and yeah that was pretty good.
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Wisconsin beat them easily.
On December 15 2020. Irrelevant.
What wss their net rank? Kenpom?
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God I love it. Even Drake beat Loyola 51-50, but they’re still making excuses for it. 3-4 seed my - - -.
They stepped up and were motivated to play without Ayo 🤣🤣🤣. Still doesn’t explain beating #2 on the road by 23, which is why everyone is really mad because they know I’m right.
He never was a team player. Just rewatch the Maryland game and you’ll see.
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Hard not to be the best player when you’re taking 37 shots a game.
In theory Kofi is the best player on the team because he got his most of the time.
Several of the guards could compete with Ayo for the best if they shot 37 times a game like the Michigan game, but stay on the Ayo train folks. He is why we never really got going as a team this season until very late without him.
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On December 15 2020. Irrelevant.
What wss their net rank? Kenpom?
OK. We were lucky to only lose by 13.
Loyola - Gonzaga in finals. Book it.
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That’s the problem with Ayo and the difference between him and a Frank, Dee or Deron as they all knew they were great and headed to the nba in some fashion, but they put their teams on their backs.
Ayo put himself on his back most of the season and that’s why the team never really got going. That is why some will compare him to never really making the top tier players I’ve mentioned.
Ayo is a ME player. Not a TEAM player.
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Lou Henson said, paraphrasing, that teams often play better in the short run if their star player is sidelined. That's because the other guys are motivated to step up. It can also be a boost to team oriented play. However, the star is the star for a reason. This generally only lasts for a couple games. We were quite a bit better with Ayo.
Lot's of reasons we lost.
Loyola was a 3 or 4 seed quality opponent that played really well. Some days, your opponent beats you.
Our guys had been playing with a chip on their shoulder since the MSU game. They had been dissed and had something to prove. Now, they were the favorites. Different psychology.
The coaches probably knew LU-I was better than their seed, but convincing the players was another thing.
I may be wrong, but it seems like early starts favor underdogs.
Larry Scirotto.
And chicks really fell for your shit despite weak ass patter like this?
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God I love it. Even Drake beat Loyola 51-50, but they’re still making excuses for it. 3-4 seed my - - -.
NET ranking: 10
KenPom ranking: 9
Quad 1 record: 2-2
Quad 2 record: 4-2
Quad 3 record: 4-0
Quad 4 record: 12-0
Offensive efficiency ranking: 49th
Defensive efficiency: 1st
"They have just four losses on the year and two of them came to tournament-bound teams, the Wisconsin Badger and Drake Bulldogs, and won 17 of their last 18 games of the season. The one loss against Drake was by a single point in overtime."
The net and kenpom ranking translate to a 3 or 4 seed. I don't make shit up.
Also, look at our games when Larry Scirotto reffed. We struggled. Fact.
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OK. We were lucky to only lose by 13.
Loyola - Gonzaga in finals. Book it.
The goodle false dichotomy. Loyola is either a horrible team and it was really bad loss; or they are awesome and we never stood a chance. How about they are top 10 team according the leading formulas? Better than MSU. It was a disappointing loss, but not Austin Peay territory.
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The goodle false dichotomy. Loyola is either a horrible team and it was really bad loss; or they are awesome and we never stood a chance. How about they are top 10 team according the leading formulas? Better than MSU. It was a disappointing loss, but not Austin Peay territory.
Why not? I bet we at least competed in the Austin Peay game even though it was a close loss and Austen Peay.
We didn’t even show up for Loyola. And all those metrics don’t really mean anything when their top win is Drake. Loyola didn’t beat anyone of real note during the season and there in lies the problem.
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It’s actually hard to disagree with this.
Our first consensus first team All American since Rod Fletcher. One of only 2 Big Ten players with 2 triple doubles in the same season. The other was Magic Johnson. PTS. 20.1 · REB. 6.3 · AST. 5.3 Last B1G player to average 20, 6, and 5 was Evan Turner.
PPS 1.33 TS% 57.4 EFG% 52.6.
Averaged 15.36 shots per game. 28th in D-1. 3rd in the B1G behind Luka Garza and Marcus Carr.
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And he played like a huge pussy in his last game.
Not saying he wasn’t good. But Frank, Dee and Deron had balls.
Those Loyola guards bullied his ass.
We were still better with him.
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God I love it. Even Drake beat Loyola 51-50,
One point loss on the road in OT. Loyola had just beaten Drake 81 - 54 the night before. Loyola also beat Drake 75-65 3 weeks later. One game does not mean that much over a season. Unfortunately, it means the season in a single elimination tournament.
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This was a game we shouldn’t have lost, but we did, because we got out-coached and out-worked.
The notion that we were better without Ayo is ridiculous. But I think we were better without Ayo and Curbelo on the floor at the same time. Curbelo can’t play off the ball, which meant Ayo had to play off the ball, which isn’t his ideal role. And when Ayo had the ball, Curbelo is useless because he can’t spot up and shoot. I understand wanting to get two of your better creators out there at the same time, but it just didn’t work.
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This was a game we shouldn’t have lost, but we did, because we got out-coached and out-worked.
The notion that we were better without Ayo is ridiculous. But I think we were better without Ayo and Curbelo on the floor at the same time. Curbelo can’t play off the ball, which meant Ayo had to play off the ball, which isn’t his ideal role. And when Ayo had the ball, Curbelo is useless because he can’t spot up and shoot. I understand wanting to get two of your better creators out there at the same time, but it just didn’t work.
You might be on to something there.
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I’ve mostly bit my tongue on criticizing Ayo because of his key role in resurrecting this program. But MD is right, and I’ll even go a step further by saying scheming to accommodate his ball dominance stunted the growth of the team as a whole.
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I’ve mostly bit my tongue on criticizing Ayo because of his key role in resurrecting this program. But MD is right, and I’ll even go a step further by saying scheming to accommodate his ball dominance stunted the growth of the team as a whole.
I’ll agree with this, but we really needed him and he did a helluva lot for this program. So like you said, I’ll bite my tongue.
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The goodle false dichotomy. Loyola is either a horrible team and it was really bad loss; or they are awesome and we never stood a chance. How about they are top 10 team according the leading formulas? Better than MSU. It was a disappointing loss, but not Austin Peay territory.
In no way has there ever been a more embarrassing loss than the one to Loyola. Illinois has now cemented itself into NCAA history as the top 13% of most overrated #1 seeds of all time. The icing on the cake is that Illinois also became the 1st ever #1 seed to trail an entire 2nd round game start to finish and by double digits at that. So looks like we may get to hang another fucking banner after all.
It's easy to make Loyola look so damn good when you had players that could not have gave two fucks about a game being played on Saturday. Illinois pulled this stupid shit all year against inferior competition. Loyola only won because they actually gave a shit and played so accordingly. Illinois decided to go full blown cavalier for the 1st 10 minutes of the game because in their minds we were already in the sweet 16. We were not even trying, playing defense on our heels, jogging back down court on defense, and throwing unforced passes straight out of bounds laughing it up while we fell behind 19-9.
The only two players that seemed to give a flying fuck was Miller and Belo. They were the only two guys I saw getting on the floor and getting after it. No else brought any fire what so ever. Just blows my mind how one game we got 3 different guys diving for loose balls every other play while the next game we're too busy patting ourselves on our backs.
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This was a game we shouldn’t have lost, but we did, because we got out-coached and out-worked.
The notion that we were better without Ayo is ridiculous. But I think we were better without Ayo and Curbelo on the floor at the same time. Curbelo can’t play off the ball, which meant Ayo had to play off the ball, which isn’t his ideal role. And when Ayo had the ball, Curbelo is useless because he can’t spot up and shoot. I understand wanting to get two of your better creators out there at the same time, but it just didn’t work.
This is interesting and probably valid take. I think you recall the tension when Ayo showed up when Coach Hulka told Trent to stop shooting so much and that Ayo was Da Man.
A lot of discussion on here that they couldn't play well together as they both needed the ball in their hands to score.
AYo had too weak of handle to be a lead guard and to get others involved - and also score himself though. Had his moments, but we were spotty.
Second half of last year, Trent (and Feliz) did qausi PG duties, deferred fully to Ayo as primary scorer, and Ayo played OFF the ball more and he improved his production and efficiency a lot. We started looking pretty good.
We did clear out for him at end of games and do the 1/4 flat thing. He made some plays for sure, but he really wasn't one to create his own shot.
Really nobody on the team had true break down penetrating ability including Ayo as he had limited left hand.
Feliz could get inside and get his own out of pure street instincts at times.
Fast forward to this year and we did have a true PG in Andres now. Crazy little fuck but he knew how to play the position.
But it was kind of the Ayo NBA roadshow the first half of the year.
We were erratic, TO prone all year (including Ayo), and they all played defense sporadically.
AYo had some big games and he shot 15-17 times a game. Tried to do too much at times and still had limited left hand.
A lot of TOs,but a lot of production. We lived with it.
In second half of year he was even more of a do it all lead scoring guard. His assists went up as we did better in transition, and Kofi improved finishing and they got a pretty good PnR thing going at times.
Ayo's passing also improved to give him credit. He developed a crossover out of the blue in January after MD or somebody totally shut him down by forcing him left.
We played better team D which let to more transitions and his assists went up.
But he is not a true PG and has a lot of work to do that at next level. I don't think he has the instincts.
He did not handle the Loyola ball screen defense at all. Fell apart really.
He is not a PG, but he had the ball in his hands all the time anyway. Loyola knew this.
Curbelo knew how to manage the ballhandler ICE thing better, but we did not make the adjustments by the screener, and others to make themselves available quicker to make the defense pay.
Ayo was an extraordinary college player and in the conversation as an all time Illinois great.
He did not quite make the top tier list IMO. His BB IQ and defense was actually not that great.
And he was kind of hard to integrate with others in some ways.
His position in pros is wing off the ball- not a combo.
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Where does the Coach Hulka nickname come from?
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Where does the Coach Hulka nickname come from?
It's my nickname for him. His biggest coaching asset is being the Big Toe.
Feel free to use it if you wish.
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It's my nickname for him. His biggest coaching asset is being the Big Toe.
Feel free to use it if you wish.
Hadn’t seen Stripes since I was a teenager. After Googling it, I get it now. I like it.
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Probably one of top 5 all time comedy movies.
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This is interesting and probably valid take. I think you recall the tension when Ayo showed up when Coach Hulka told Trent to stop shooting so much and that Ayo was Da Man.
A lot of discussion on here that they couldn't play well together as they both needed the ball in their hands to score.
AYo had too weak of handle to be a lead guard and to get others involved - and also score himself though. Had his moments, but we were spotty.
Second half of last year, Trent (and Feliz) did qausi PG duties, deferred fully to Ayo as primary scorer, and Ayo played OFF the ball more and he improved his production and efficiency a lot. We started looking pretty good.
We did clear out for him at end of games and do the 1/4 flat thing. He made some plays for sure, but he really wasn't one to create his own shot.
Really nobody on the team had true break down penetrating ability including Ayo as he had limited left hand.
Feliz could get inside and get his own out of pure street instincts at times.
Fast forward to this year and we did have a true PG in Andres now. Crazy little fuck but he knew how to play the position.
But it was kind of the Ayo NBA roadshow the first half of the year.
We were erratic, TO prone all year (including Ayo), and they all played defense sporadically.
AYo had some big games and he shot 15-17 times a game. Tried to do too much at times and still had limited left hand.
A lot of TOs,but a lot of production. We lived with it.
In second half of year he was even more of a do it all lead scoring guard. His assists went up as we did better in transition, and Kofi improved finishing and they got a pretty good PnR thing going at times.
Ayo's passing also improved to give him credit. He developed a crossover out of the blue in January after MD or somebody totally shut him down by forcing him left.
We played better team D which let to more transitions and his assists went up.
But he is not a true PG and has a lot of work to do that at next level. I don't think he has the instincts.
He did not handle the Loyola ball screen defense at all. Fell apart really.
He is not a PG, but he had the ball in his hands all the time anyway. Loyola knew this.
Curbelo knew how to manage the ballhandler ICE thing better, but we did not make the adjustments by the screener, and others to make themselves available quicker to make the defense pay.
Ayo was an extraordinary college player and in the conversation as an all time Illinois great.
He did not quite make the top tier list IMO. His BB IQ and defense was actually not that great.
And he was kind of hard to integrate with others in some ways.
His position in pros is wing off the ball- not a combo.
I was in the middle of writing something very similar to the overall theme of your post from my phone when it started ringing. I took the call and when I came back my browser window had closed and I lost it all. Didn’t feel like writing it again so I just posted the little thing I said earlier. So it made me happy to see you make this post because I think it needed to be said.
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my browser window had closed and I lost it all.
Which browser?
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My previous post was just a brief overview. I answered the phone and being in a noisy environment, put it to my ear rather than on speaker.
Somehow in this process I unknowingly switched back to the browser app. Kept hearing a little clicking noise and pulled the phone away from my ear to see what was happening. What had happened was that I typed a whole shitload of Ps with my face. Needing to pay attention to the call, I closed the app out rather than going back to the phone app.
After the call ended I reopened the browser and of course the post was gone because this shitty forum doesn’t cache posts as they’re being written.
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Probably one of top 5 all time comedy movies.
I used to think so, but I haven’t seen it in probably 15 years, so I don’t know if I’d still like it as much.
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They’re still sticking up for him.
I’m still waiting for a legit counter for how we beat #2 on the road by 23 without him.
Other than the...”Well, the team had to step up, and,uh, blah blah blah”...
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I’ll tell ya what happened after Ayo came back from injury...
Frazier went down the toilet.
Kofi still got his.
Miller and Curbelo shot less even though more efficient than Ayo, but took a backseat to him.
Don’t want to hear how Kofi clogged the lane for the batmobile. Kofi could’ve had 50 against Loyola if they passed him the ball.
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We didn't feel like playing defense, so we had to run a half court offense. We've had the problem on and off all year, but not for 40 minutes like the Loyola game is my take.
Good posts by JRock and LK.