IlliniHQ 2
General Category => Fighting Illini Basketball Forum => Topic started by: Custard on March 07, 2021, 08:48:08 PM
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Gotta hand it to Whitman and Underwood & Co for the resurrection of the program. Whitman is a winner and he hired a winner.
Staff went out and got players, adjusted schemes to fit them, doesn’t overcoach like Weber, doesn’t undercoach like Groce, allows players to make mistakes and grow (other than Hawkins), players know their roles and steadily improve, teams improve throughout season.
Perhaps most importantly he has adjusted his coaching style and personality. Lots of cringey moments those first couple of years. I remember someone saying back then that Brad simply didn’t know how else to handle all the suck he took over. I think that was probably pretty accurate. To his credit he seems to have evolved into more of a players coach that knows when and how to get on his guys. I hate to even say it but he’s kinda like the Bill Self that actually wants to stay in Champaign.
In watching a lot of college basketball this season there are a bunch of good players that we recruited heavily. And it seems like the better guys we get are rising in the recruiting ratings and tend to play to it whereas the Groce/Weber guys often were falling in rankings and eventually underperformed their HS hype.
One thing I think that gets overlooked is that the dude isn’t afraid to cut bait. If a guy doesn’t fit they move on and get another.
Overall it’s hard not to like what he’s accomplished here. Huge props to the guys who bought in early and are reaping the rewards.
Closing notes:
-Tempo should be pleased not only with the progress of the team but especially the kinder, gentler Brad Underwood.
-ChicagoFan was way wrong on Trent Frazier.
-Fuck Iowa and Michigan
-WE’RE FUCKIN BACK BABY
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Coach Hulka and staff got them to realize if they guard somebody hard they could be really good. Was not sure it would happen and after the Indiana, Neb, and NorthWestern games in mid Feb there were real questions about mental approach and preparation.
Same thing happened last year, but he had a natural leader in Feliz who helped the culture get there quicker I think.
Ayo has became the clear leader this year.
I don't follow recruiting like others, but going national and getting some kids with old school street ball skills has been huge.
The BT has no idea what to do with Curbelo, nor could they deal with Feliz.
Underwood is getting the job done overall. I am glad I was wrong about him.
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Gotta hand it to Whitman and Underwood & Co for the resurrection of the program. Whitman is a winner and he hired a winner.
Better asterisk (*) your comment.
Whitman also made arguably the worst hire of a head football coach in Illinois history.
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I don’t think it is arguable. Becktard, Moeller were demonstrably worse. Not necessarily their overall record but in just being generally embarrassing in multiple other ways.
Tepper’s teams didn’t even have the viewer benefit of being funny-bad, they were just boring af. In the context of the past 30 years, Zook was a pretty good Illinois football coach. Turner had a couple good teams and then mailed it in.
I think the Smith hire has to be looked at through a somewhat different lens. Whitman had to do something about football right away because Groce was somewhat safe for another year given the recruiting class he was putting together. Illinois was on the list of programs without a minority HC for WAY too long. There was enormous pressure to hire a minority head coach. And in March 2016 there was a newly available minority coach that just happened to have taken the “local” NFL team to a Super Bowl in relatively recent memory. That’s the kind of hire you basically get a free pass for. Especially when you’re the new UI Golden Child AD.
Lovie got enough leash to get us to a bowl and got a quick hook when it was time to go. He was replaced with a proven B1G coach with local ties. I’m optimistic, but he’s got a lot of work to do. He has been doing a lot of things right thus far. I’m fairly certain Josh himself wrote most of the speeches/press releases for all the coaching hires. Everything that was said and done publicly reeked of his direct involvement, from the woeful shortcomings of the Lovie staff right down to the style of writing and punctuation.
Obviously I’m a huge fan of the guy. Everyone that thought he was Gunther-lite really missed the mark. He seems to strike a balance between the few things Gunther did well with the forward looking mindset of someone steeped in the era of modern for-profit college athletics. I like his hands-on approach and accessibility to players. At the same time, he runs a pretty tight ship. His communication is a little robotic and corporate attorney-like at times, and he has the annoying habit of whistling when he says words that have the letter S in them. But the overall messages he conveys shows that he “gets it” at a much higher level than ADs previous. That doesn’t mean he’s going to turn Illinois into a perennial powerhouse in all the sports. He is still working with limited resources relative to our conference foes, let alone nationally, but it’s a huge step in the right direction from a leadership perspective.
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Better asterisk (*) your comment.
Whitman also made arguably the worst hire of a head football coach in Illinois history.
Lou Tepper says hi
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Holy shit Murph and I agree on something
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Holy shit Murph and I agree on something
Not only did he reverse some great momentum under Mac, he did super mediocre with some ridiculous talent on the defensive side. I mean, Simeon Rice...
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I had pretty much resigned myself to the program being completely ruined, permanently. That we would never see the NCAAs again, that the NIT would be a massive stretch. Last year was a massive gut punch seeing that team make a run that we would actually be in the tourney and then COVID killed it and I assumed Ayo would leave.
Then just like that we are a one seed.
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I think Custard’s assessment is pretty spot on. Like others, I had concerns and thought Whitman would be looking for a new coach right about now. But Underwood has proven over the past two years that he can adapt and change his approach to the game. Let’s hope he can keep the positive momentum going.
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Yeah, the Lovie hire looks bad in hindsight, but it wasn’t a bad hire at the time. Lovie was an extremely high-ceiling hire, probably higher than any other options that were available to Illinois at the time. Considering where our program was at the time, it was worth the risk.
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Custard makes a good point about talent evaluation too. Underwood (and Antigua) seem to be really good at it. There aren’t a lot of examples of guys Underwood really wanted who turned out to be bums.
The scary thing is, we were pretty close to getting Timme. How crazy would this team be with him on board?
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Like I sad a long time ago (when he got hired by OKST) I said I thought he would have done a good job here, thankfully he left there to come to a real basketball school after only one season. Took a while to get things going and learn the high major job but damn if he hasn't delivered the last two seasons. He's changed and definitely surrounded himself with good people, the hiring of Steve Gentry was pretty much the turning point for us I think
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The key is in keeping Coleman and Antigua on staff which isn't going to be easy going forward.
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Gotta hand it to Whitman and Underwood & Co for the resurrection of the program. Whitman is a winner and he hired a winner.
Staff went out and got players, adjusted schemes to fit them, doesn’t overcoach like Weber, doesn’t undercoach like Groce, allows players to make mistakes and grow (other than Hawkins), players know their roles and steadily improve, teams improve throughout season.
Perhaps most importantly he has adjusted his coaching style and personality. Lots of cringey moments those first couple of years. I remember someone saying back then that Brad simply didn’t know how else to handle all the suck he took over. I think that was probably pretty accurate. To his credit he seems to have evolved into more of a players coach that knows when and how to get on his guys. I hate to even say it but he’s kinda like the Bill Self that actually wants to stay in Champaign.
In watching a lot of college basketball this season there are a bunch of good players that we recruited heavily. And it seems like the better guys we get are rising in the recruiting ratings and tend to play to it whereas the Groce/Weber guys often were falling in rankings and eventually underperformed their HS hype.
One thing I think that gets overlooked is that the dude isn’t afraid to cut bait. If a guy doesn’t fit they move on and get another.
Overall it’s hard not to like what he’s accomplished here. Huge props to the guys who bought in early and are reaping the rewards.
Closing notes:
-Tempo should be pleased not only with the progress of the team but especially the kinder, gentler Brad Underwood.
-ChicagoFan was way wrong on Trent Frazier.
-Fuck Iowa and Michigan
-WE’RE FUCKIN BACK BABY
+1
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There aren’t a lot of examples of guys Underwood really wanted who turned out to be bums.
Who are the ones he didn't really want?
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Free throws, turnovers, head, skis.
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I don’t think it is arguable. Becktard, Moeller were demonstrably worse. Not necessarily their overall record but in just being generally embarrassing in multiple other ways.
Tepper’s teams didn’t even have the viewer benefit of being funny-bad, they were just boring af. In the context of the past 30 years, Zook was a pretty good Illinois football coach. Turner had a couple good teams and then mailed it in.
I think the Smith hire has to be looked at through a somewhat different lens. Whitman had to do something about football right away because Groce was somewhat safe for another year given the recruiting class he was putting together. Illinois was on the list of programs without a minority HC for WAY too long. There was enormous pressure to hire a minority head coach. And in March 2016 there was a newly available minority coach that just happened to have taken the “local” NFL team to a Super Bowl in relatively recent memory. That’s the kind of hire you basically get a free pass for. Especially when you’re the new UI Golden Child AD.
Lovie got enough leash to get us to a bowl and got a quick hook when it was time to go. He was replaced with a proven B1G coach with local ties. I’m optimistic, but he’s got a lot of work to do. He has been doing a lot of things right thus far. I’m fairly certain Josh himself wrote most of the speeches/press releases for all the coaching hires. Everything that was said and done publicly reeked of his direct involvement, from the woeful shortcomings of the Lovie staff right down to the style of writing and punctuation.
Obviously I’m a huge fan of the guy. Everyone that thought he was Gunther-lite really missed the mark. He seems to strike a balance between the few things Gunther did well with the forward looking mindset of someone steeped in the era of modern for-profit college athletics. I like his hands-on approach and accessibility to players. At the same time, he runs a pretty tight ship. His communication is a little robotic and corporate attorney-like at times, and he has the annoying habit of whistling when he says words that have the letter S in them. But the overall messages he conveys shows that he “gets it” at a much higher level than ADs previous. That doesn’t mean he’s going to turn Illinois into a perennial powerhouse in all the sports. He is still working with limited resources relative to our conference foes, let alone nationally, but it’s a huge step in the right direction from a leadership perspective.
When Whitman was interviewing with Illinois, he undoubtedly asked his future bosses whether he would have free reign to hire the next football coach. So I don't necessarily agree with your position he was under tremendous pressure (internally) to hire a minority candidate. That being said, I don't doubt there were discussions about what a minority hiring would mean for the university. Regardless, there were several questions about Smith when he was hired. First and foremost was whether he would be able to successfully recruit players after being away from the college game for @20 years (off the top of my head). Recruiting is the lifeblood of college football. In the end, those concerns proved to be 100% accurate; his recruiting of high school football prospects was poor at best. It didn't help matters that his coaches were long on NFL experience but largely lacked meaningful college recruiting experience. Smith's relationships (rather, lack thereof) with high school football coaches in the state is well documented. In addition, today's game is about offense and putting lots of points on the board in order to win. Fans love it, too. Even Nick Saban has had to adjust.
https://saturdayblitz.com/2019/09/29/century-scoring-trends-in-college-football/
Unfortunately, Smith's expertise was defense. Because of the program's lack of recruiting success (and given most college players aren't NFL-caliber players), the Illini defense never could successfully implement Cover 2 on a consistent basis. A similar problem exists at Nebraska, where Scott Frost's offense has sputtered in part because of a lack of talent (e.g., highly accurate QB who doesn't turn the ball over, speedy WRs who can get open) and perhaps an overly complicated playbook.
We all know how this sad chapter in Illini football ended. I'm optimistic Bielema will be more successful...or he'd better be, given the low threshold Smith set.
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I think Lovie did bring some legitimacy to the program, and recruits and transfers mentioned the 'it's family' atmosphere.
A DC with free reign to run his own defense could have made quite a difference, imo.
Bielema getting players to stick around should say something about how the players view the program that Lovie left behind.
Good assistants can make or break a head coach.
Jake Hansen is sticking around for another year. Huge.
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I think Lovie did bring some legitimacy to the program, and recruits and transfers mentioned the 'it's family' atmosphere.
A DC with free reign to run his own defense could have made quite a difference, imo.
Bielema getting players to stick around should say something about how the players view the program that Lovie left behind.
Good assistants can make or break a head coach.
Jake Hansen is sticking around for another year. Huge.
Agree
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Tepper [and Beckman] were bad, but Moeller was so bad some thought he intentionally sabotaged the program. Jim Valek was worse than Lovie too.
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I think Lovie did bring some legitimacy to the program, and recruits and transfers mentioned the 'it's family' atmosphere.
A DC with free reign to run his own defense could have made quite a difference, imo.
Bielema getting players to stick around should say something about how the players view the program that Lovie left behind.
Good assistants can make or break a head coach.
Jake Hansen is sticking around for another year. Huge.
Well said. I think we did need someone for a bridge between clueless and competitive regimes.
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I’m of the same thought process as MN and PAMan. (Chump edit: also Illiniray and RTG) Lovie did improve some things and was dreadful at others. I think ultimately the job was more attractive in late 2020 than it was in early 2016 but that’s a low bar.
IL is just in a place where anyone we hire is going to have huge question marks. And the AA head coach elephant in the room had been around for 20 years and only got bigger with each new vanilla hire. (Pun intended).
MT got both Becktard and Groce approved by the BOT but that’s only because he swung and missed big on Shaka Smart and Kevin Sumlin before settling on the two unexciting white guys from the MAC.
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I've seen some bad Illinois football, but the 0-0 game vs NU under Moeller was just gawdawful miserable. I swear we had something stupid like 1st and goal from the 3 and had trouble getting a play off, or maybe 2 plays.
I think it was like 95 degrees that day, to compound the misery.
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Must have gotten Moeller'd up that night!
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The infamous Futility Bowl. 9/8/1978.
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Must have gotten Moeller'd up that night!
Good bet I didn't score either.
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In Brad's first year there was 5 games they blew it and should have won so instead of 14-18 we see 19-13 8-10 in conference
The 2nd year was a true rebuild
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I’m of the same thought process as MN and PAMan. (Chump edit: also Illiniray and RTG) Lovie did improve some things and was dreadful at others. I think ultimately the job was more attractive in late 2020 than it was in early 2016 but that’s a low bar.
IL is just in a place where anyone we hire is going to have huge question marks. And the AA head coach elephant in the room had been around for 20 years and only got bigger with each new vanilla hire. (Pun intended).
MT got both Becktard and Groce approved by the BOT but that’s only because he swung and missed big on Shaka Smart and Kevin Sumlin before settling on the two unexciting white guys from the MAC.
Fair points raised by several of you. For clarification purposes, I was not questioning Coach Smith's qualifications for the Illinois job. Rather, I'm of the opinion it's extremely difficult to be successful as a head coach in the NFL and then replicate that success on the college level at a Power 5 program. Bill Walsh had one good year at Stanford when he returned (and two stinkers), nothing close to the success he had at his previous stop as the 49ers head coach. Nick Saban and Dennis Erickson didn't have success as an NFL head coaches. The far more traveled path is success at the college level then off to a (hopefully) long coaching career in the NFL (head coach or assistant), which many coaches have accomplished over the years.
BTW, I never understood why some on the old forum pined for Kevin Sumlin. His best season at TAMU coincided with the arrival of QB Johnny Football; each successive season ended with a worse (or the same) record. Same thing happened at Arizona, except he didn't even last 3 full seasons (5-7, 4-8, 0-5). Sumlin couldn't even do better than Rich Rodriguez, who was fired after finishing 7-6 the season before Sumlin arrived. Yes, he had success at Houston -- where he inherited a solid program when Art Briles left to take the job at Baylor. After leaving Houston, it's been mostly tough sledding for Sumlin.
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First winning big at a school like a Houston or UCF type school is usually sure fire ticket to a good to elite P5 job. (Think Tom Herman and Scott Frost) For an Illinois fan, that’s about the best we can possibly do without going the retread route. So that adds excitement.
But the fact that Sumlin is Black which made him even more appealing to those who wanted to shed our unsavory presence on the shrinking list of programs that hadn’t hired a minority coach in a revenue sport.
I think the landscape is rapidly changing for coaches of color, but 10-15 years ago as Sumlin rose to prominence not nearly enough minority coaches even got the chance to get to his level. That meant that opportunities to hire a minority coach with that kind of resume were very few and far between.
Since that time we have seen a shift to more minority coaches at every level of the sport meaning more will have opportunities to ascend to P5 HC coaching consideration. We could have hired Babers and checked that box but the timing was off and not sure that would have turned out any better.