IlliniHQ 2
General Category => Fighting Illini Basketball Forum => Topic started by: Reacher on December 28, 2023, 01:23:09 PM
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In Kansas
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In Kansas
He is in Kansas?
Ahh. He went to the Illini football game against Kansas.
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Nm
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https://x.com/dpiper247/status/1740449428400709943?s=46&t=taZJ_d5ITWr6Hq3PUZDUiQ
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Illinois knew about this as far back as September?
And he was only charged now?
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welp there goes another promising season
best case scenario its another false claim but that won't stop the damage done to his rep and his chances in the league
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Fuck this! I hate being an Illini fan! 😡
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FFS.
https://www.si.com/college/indiana/big-ten/illinois-terrence-shannon-junior-suspended-following-arrest-rape-charge (https://www.si.com/college/indiana/big-ten/illinois-terrence-shannon-junior-suspended-following-arrest-rape-charge)
You have to think they had three months to evaluate the credibility of the allegations and did not move forward without some belief in validity.
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(https://www.mandatory.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/gallery/mandatory-gifs-of-the-week-groundhog-day-edition/giphy-5.gif)
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FFS.
https://www.si.com/college/indiana/big-ten/illinois-terrence-shannon-junior-suspended-following-arrest-rape-charge (https://www.si.com/college/indiana/big-ten/illinois-terrence-shannon-junior-suspended-following-arrest-rape-charge)
You have to think they had three months to evaluate the credibility of the allegations and did not move forward without some belief in validity.
well the article said they didn't have enough info so innocent until proven guilty is apparently still a thing
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Illinois knew about this as far back as September?
And he was only charged
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Illinois knew about this as far back as September?
And he was only charged now?
Un-effing-real. JFC!
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Season is probably fucked. TSJ's career and life are probably fucked if the allegations are true.
I'm not a "this program is cursed" guy but...yeah, we're fucking cursed.
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(3/3) statement from attorney representing Terrence Shannon Jr. : "Terrence is innocent of these charges, and he intends to take his case to trial."
Mark P. Sutter, Attorney at Law. #illinimbb
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(1/2) Statement from attorney Sutter on #Illini MBB player Terrence Shannon on his suspension: Since September, when these allegations surfaced, Terrence has cooperated with law enforcement throughout the investigation, declaring his innocence from the beginning. #illinimbb
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Gonna be a long process and season probably over because court isn’t gonna start before then. Also it’s crazy what might’ve caused some validity 3 months later to charge him. Very weird they didn’t have evidence before but do now…
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Reportedly, Shannon attended that KU game with BU, CH, and several other teammates.
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We can’t have nice things.
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Gonna be a long process and season probably over because court isn’t gonna start before then. Also it’s crazy what might’ve caused some validity 3 months later to charge him. Very weird they didn’t have evidence before but do now…
It’s not like a TV show. Investigations take a long time, and they’re not charging anyone without enough evidence.
So, apparently we have guys going on road trips and raping people. Jesus. Fuck that guy for real.
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There goes the season. I give up.
Fuck!!!
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The delay in charges could be a reluctant witness?
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The delay in charges could be a reluctant witness?
Who the fuck knows. Investigations take a long time.
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well the article said they didn't have enough info so innocent until proven guilty is apparently still a thing
Sure, but one could assume they were in communication with the St Attn in that county about the nature of the allegation, the known evidence from police report and sexual assault initial screening protocols which are pretty standardized now as to protect rights of alleged victims and alleged perpetrators, and timeline for issuing a warrant: and might have made a proactive cautionary decision in the interim to hold him out of games until the matter was clarified.
Maybe there was not enough info. Who knows.
University policies are very strict these days for students in any situation regarding harassment or sexual misconduct.
DIA said they didn't have enough to warrant taking action. Could be accurate.
They certainly do not want to look like 2002 and the Iowa and Pierre Pierce/Alford bullshit. I would think that UI probably considered all elements in today's highly sensitized environment. It also was not an incident on campus with another UI student so maybe that factored in.
But it is complicated I am sure. We have some lawyers on the forum here. Maybe they have some thoughts.
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(2/3) statement cont., re: Terrence Shannon Jr from attorney: "...Now, several months later, my office learned that formal charges were filed against him yesterday in Lawrence, KS. In less than 24 hours, my client responded, and he voluntarily surrendered to local authorities
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Curse of The Chief we're dammed.
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Oh ffs. We just went from a 2 seed to the bubble.
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Curse of The Chief we're dammed.
Yeah, the gal that got raped is a Chief curse victim.
Shut the fuck up, Beach Bum, you stupid piece of shit.
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Yeah, the gal that got raped is a Chief curse victim.
Shut the fuck up, Beach Bum, you stupid piece of shit.
Says the 50 year old virgin
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Oh ffs. We just went from a 2 seed to the bubble.
I wouldn't even be upset if we lost tomorrow quite honestly after this news.
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https://www.douglascountysentinel.com/sports/national/illinois-terrence-shannon-jr-suspended-faces-rape-charges-in-kansas/article_ba2c428d-d6c2-5f75-8970-151b2f9e7936.html
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Oh ffs. We just went from a 2 seed to the bubble.
Agree we were looking at a 2 with a Purdue upset win, and safely a 4 if we won most games we were supposed to.
I think we will struggle to get in now. He was playing at AA level on both sides of the ball.
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Why in the fuck are you putting yourself in that position dude? Forget this season. You have your whole life and career ahead of you and you pissed it all away. Just sad and stupid.
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Why in the fuck are you putting yourself in that position dude? Forget this season. You have your whole life and career ahead of you and you pissed it all away. Just sad and stupid.
I am sure the DIA does education with all student athletes and especially high profile ones about risk situations.
Sounds like he/his attny are adamant that he is innocent.
We will see what happens, but there is little chance he plays again, unless the alleged victim drops all charges and Kansas law even allows that.
My guess is after three months the alleged victim has a certain amount certitude and belief about what she states happened.
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I am sure the DIA does education with all student athletes and especially high profile ones about risk situations.
Sounds like he/his attny are adamant that he is innocent.
We will see what happens, but there is little chance he plays again, unless the alleged victim drops all charges and Kansas law even allows that.
My guess is after three months the alleged victim has a certain amount certitude and belief about what she states happened.
Or the money wasn't there, yet.
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No wonder he was practicing at 4am. Couldn't sleep.
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Gonna be interesting to see how the rest of the guys respond. Do they rally around this and step their games up or do they lay down and die the rest of the year? We'll have to find out.
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It was not a good weekend in Lawrence for Illini sports.
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Don’t care about the team stuff but this makes me physically sick
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Can’t understand why Whitman lets this marinate for 30 hours before speaking. He’s known since late September. He has to know what he’s saying. Get out front and look accountable.
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Gotta say, I mostly agree. I get why they didn't suspend him before, or why it was kept quiet with no charges filed (to some degree, depending on what they knew - but we have no way of knowing that).
But once the story's out, to immediately say "we'll address this on Friday night, 36 hours from now" seems like a mistake. Say something.
I think based on how he's been treated this year, the likely money is on this charge being a surprise to Whitman and Underwood - even if they knew the investigation was happening, I get the impression they did not think it would come to an actual charge. If that's the case, he might not know what he's going to say - but still, say something tonight. Don't let this go another entire day.
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There is is side story about Douglas County District Attorney Suzanne Valdez.
"August 19: A formal complaint accuses the Douglas County district attorney of misconduct for her comments about a judge, including allegedly calling him a sexist and a liar."
December 20: "[Special prosecutor] Bonifas asked the panel to impose a one-year suspension of Valdez’s law license."
Valdez is also up for reelection next year.
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There is is side story about Douglas County District Attorney Suzanne Valdez.
"August 19: A formal complaint accuses the Douglas County district attorney of misconduct for her comments about a judge, including allegedly calling him a sexist and a liar."
December 20: "[Special prosecutor] Bonifas asked the panel to impose a one-year suspension of Valdez’s law license."
Valdez is also up for reelection next year.
Please don't do this "try to undercut the legitimacy of the charge by posting shit about the DA" nonsense like a subset of morons are doing on Loyalty right now.
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Have to agree with spark here. There's no way they're going to run the scariest man meme or a day in the life of TSJr. If they had known any of this. I will say this about TSJr. Out of all the athletes illinois has ever had here TSJr seemed the the least likely to have ever been affiliated with anything like this. He looks and plays the part of a high class role model athelete. Which makes this so much harder to digest.
Whether he is innocent or not he's done playing ball for the U of I.
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I would think the AD has a reason he wants a day or two before giving a more detailed response.
The security around this story has been impressive. Almost 4 months since the alleged incident and no leaks.
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Please don't do this "try to undercut the legitimacy of the charge by posting shit about the DA" nonsense like a subset of morons are doing on Loyalty right now.
If the DA happens to be a flake, and facing license suspension, along with reelection, that is certainly an interesting side story.
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It’s the most obvious grasping at straws
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Yikes…!!
“ The alleged victim is not named, but multiple law enforcement officers and another unnamed individual are listed as witnesses. The official complaint says Shannon faces a minimum of 147 months and a maximum of 653 months in prison and/or a fine of up to $300,000 if he's convicted.”
https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/39198787/illinois-terrence-shannon-jr-charged-rape-suspended
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Oh ffs. We just went from a 2 seed to the bubble.
In a basketball perfect world, we are not a bubble team without him I am afraid, but hey CoHawk can carry us.
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So Illinois…
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Hopefully TSJ stays innocent until proven guilty, and I really hope that training is what gets him awake at 4:30, not the inability to sleep.
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Unless you know what exactly happened, maybe we should let the process play out before convicting him of anything?
Anyone remember the Buffalo Bills punter or the Duke Lacrosse players stories? Not saying this is the same, but maybe withhold judgment until more of the story comes out?
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Hopefully TSJ stays innocent until proven guilty, and I really hope that training is what gets him awake at 4:30, not the inability to sleep.
He is innocent until proven guilty in the eyes of the law. As for The Twitter and HQ2 Executioners, nope.
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Now, what I have not seen/heard is the defense attorney claim this was nothing but a shakedown, etc.
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We have #31 Marcus -#41 Quincy has our B1G Top 50 average game scorers left on team outside of TSJ @ # 2 in the conference.
Our "other" fringe 2nd rounder is @ 9.8 per game although that has increased slightly, with TSJ out now, I am afraid the mental aspect will creep in even worse.
Quincy and Marcus better be ready to carry us. We will need at least 15-18 out of both of them nightly now.
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https://twitter.com/wics_abc20/status/1740489698836132124?t=K81j_G3GitzurQfVMF9bzA&s=19
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Per Kansas law on rape and allegations, it would seem they are looking at Severity 1 level - Depending on the circumstances of the crime, prosecutors can charge rape as a severity level 1 (use of force, victim incapacity, or underage victim), this would carry the reported possible sentence of severity level 1: 147 to 653 months (approx. 12 to 54 years) and $300,000.
I personally do not see TSJ using force, and also do not see him with an underage person. Aggravated Sodomy by Kansas law can and does fall within the "force of fear" description as defined by law for severity 1 however.
This would leave victim incapacitation as the presumed legal offense that would fall within the severity 1 level?
As someone else has stated, unwilling witness, (s), and or has another has stated a shakedown?
Shakedown doesn't make any sense, because once the case is in front of the DA, it cannot be dismissed as a result of a financial settlement. Only the DA to my knowledge can drop the charge and most will not regardless of circumstances changing, especially not $$$ exchanging hands.
Sexual Battery is the alternate charge, either way unless proven absolutely innocent, this kid's life is changing and already is.
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(https://i.ibb.co/mNFHZDD/Screenshot-20231228-180802-2.png) (https://ibb.co/3RY06rr)
(https://i.ibb.co/4V2rXRf/Screenshot-20231228-180812-2.png) (https://ibb.co/9rh51Hv)
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The alleged victim is 17 or 18. Age of consent is 16.
Note also the lesser alternative charge.
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He is innocent until proven guilty in the eyes of the law. As for The Twitter and HQ2 Executioners, nope.
I don’t see anyone here proclaiming him guilty. Jobu has come out the strongest, if anyone.
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(https://i.ibb.co/mNFHZDD/Screenshot-20231228-180802-2.png) (https://ibb.co/3RY06rr)
(https://i.ibb.co/4V2rXRf/Screenshot-20231228-180812-2.png) (https://ibb.co/9rh51Hv)
Can one of you fancy big city lawyers explain this to me like I'm, you know... me
Like what is he being charged with the first part or the second part... because one is super bad, the second could be as innocuous as grabbing some chicks ass at a bar
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Can one of you fancy big city lawyers explain this to me like I'm, you know... me
Like what is he being charged with the first part or the second part... because one is super bad, the second could be as innocuous as grabbing some chicks ass at a bar
I think that’s the whole point of the prosecution. They want a conviction so they literally make to anything can be considered a charge. That way they have a greater chance of some sort of conviction.
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Also how were like 6 people including officers witnesses or are they just witnessing the allegations
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Also how were like 6 people including officers witnesses or are they just witnessing the allegations
I was wondering the same thing…
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I don’t see anyone here proclaiming him guilty. Jobu has come out the strongest, if anyone.
Jobu sounded like he convicted him already. Spark was disgusted, I believe as I'm too busy right now to look back to see the words he actually used.
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Also how were like 6 people including officers witnesses or are they just witnessing the allegations
Would think the latter and their witness interviews. If they were there, it would not have taken 3 months to charge him, right?
One is allegedly a nurse.
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Jobu sounded like he convicted him already. Spark was disgusted, I believe as I'm too busy right now to look back to see the words he actually used.
Are you not?
I have no clue whether he did it, but I’m sick over the whole thing.
Sounds like you convicted me before the facts came out though
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Unless you know what exactly happened, maybe we should let the process play out before convicting him of anything?
Anyone remember the Buffalo Bills punter or the Duke Lacrosse players stories? Not saying this is the same, but maybe withhold judgment until more of the story comes out?
Yep.
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I think we can all agree this is serious as fuck.
Let's see what happens.
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I think we can all agree this is serious as fuck.
Let's see what happens.
Yep agreed. Potential for our best season in 18 years down the drain.
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If the DA happens to be a flake, and facing license suspension, along with reelection, that is certainly an interesting side story.
"But at the conclusion of a three-day hearing on Wednesday, special prosecutor Kimberly Bonifas asked the panel to consider whether they believe the testimony of Valdez and Deputy DA Joshua Seiden, or that of the other 13 witnesses who testified.
In her closing arguments, Bonifas asked the panel to impose a one-year suspension of Valdez’s law license."
https://lawrencekstimes.com/2023/12/20/valdez-hrg-day3/
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His lawyer says he’s innocent. We’ll see. I’m skeptical.
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His lawyer says he’s innocent. We’ll see. I’m skeptical.
I have no idea wtf will happen here.
A lot of things can happen in the process along the way.
But we now have to regroup and figure out how to go from here. He is not coming back unless something really unforeseen happens.
We are likely a stretch to make tourney at this point. We have only one Top 20 win and will be scrambling to win 10 or 11 in the league.
Plus the committee will say the FAU win is not our real team come March with no TSj.
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Are you not?
I have no clue whether he did it, but I’m sick over the whole thing.
Sounds like you convicted me before the facts came out though
I'm neither sick nor disgusted over it. I'll wait and see what happens.
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This is about to get crazy.
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This is about to get crazy.
In what way?
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In what way?
Unconfirmed rumor.
It was bs, nevermind.
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Actually staying in Champaign tonight. Mood in town is quite somber.
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1. The Witnesses: because of the rules of evidence and confrontation clause everyone who might have evidence and testify at evidentiary hearings or trial gets listed, including the police officers who took statements and collected and tested evidence, which is why the nurse is there.
2. Regardless of the number of witnesses, felony investigations take time, particularly when something has to be tested by a lab. This could also literally be as simple as the ADA being behind.
3. Very possible they overcharged. Very possible it's a withdrawn consent issue. Very possible the witness listed is a friend who the victim talked to later and it'll be excluded. Very possible he pleas. It's still sickening almost regardless of what ultimately happens solely because it's at this point.
4. Innocent until proven guilty is a burden of proof maxim. We're free to disregard it outside of the courtroom for non-criminal purposes. The default should be to believe the victim in this circumstance. We have no evidence from TSJ other than a denial through his lawyer, and no evidence the victim is lying.
5. I agree with spark on the DIA. They've had 3 months to investigate and get ahead of this story. If their investigation concluded otherwise, they should be protecting their student-athlete now, and if it's just been a wait and see thing, they should at least have a statement crafted.
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bs internet rumor is source from the DA's says girl consented because she thought Shannon was a FB player. Had buyer's remorse and turned on him when she found out he was a BB player.
Allegedly, the ADA charged TSJ with rape for misrepresenting himself.
Rape by deception? I don't think so.
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Yeah I just saw that rumor on Loyalty. That's hot nonsense.
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bs internet rumor is source from the DA's days girl consented because she thought Shannon was a FB player. Had buyer's remorse and turned on him when she found out he was a BB player.
Allegedly, the ADA charged TSJ with rape for misrepresenting himself.
Rape by deception? I don't think so.
This is what Nichi's talking about
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GCe98VMXUAAlFTp?format=jpg&name=large)
Not buying it. No way lying about being a football player is all he was arrested for. If that's really true, then the DA is as incompetent as they come.
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Also how were like 6 people including officers witnesses or are they just witnessing the allegations
Witness to allegations
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Looks I won the bet with Sparky about TSJ. Even when I’m temporarily wrong, I still end up being correct.
It’s good to be back.
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This is what Nichi's talking about
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GCe98VMXUAAlFTp?format=jpg&name=large)
Not buying it. No way lying about being a football player is all he was arrested for. If that's really true, then the DA is as incompetent as they come.
I'm not a football player. I'm a future NBA first round pick and will be worth tens of millions of dollars.
Nope - I only want Football players from a second rate program.
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This is an even worse story (obviously - just in disbelief about this happening) circling around the Kansas Football drain than my brother in law flying down to Arizona with my neice and nephew to go to the bowl game (He's a KU alum).
The fireworks before the game spooked his 3 year old son and he would not calm down. Guy ended up watching the game in the hotel room.
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First bet I lost, I said Kendrick Nunn wouldn’t come to Illinois. He does, but gets charged with a felony and kicked off the team.
The only other bet I’ve ever lost, I said Terrence Shannon Jr would not come back for his last season. He does, but gets charged with a felony and kicked off the team.
Even when I’m wrong, I’m right. Sucks to be you sparky!
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1. The Witnesses: because of the rules of evidence and confrontation clause everyone who might have evidence and testify at evidentiary hearings or trial gets listed, including the police officers who took statements and collected and tested evidence, which is why the nurse is there.
2. Regardless of the number of witnesses, felony investigations take time, particularly when something has to be tested by a lab. This could also literally be as simple as the ADA being behind.
3. Very possible they overcharged. Very possible it's a withdrawn consent issue. Very possible the witness listed is a friend who the victim talked to later and it'll be excluded. Very possible he pleas. It's still sickening almost regardless of what ultimately happens solely because it's at this point.
4. Innocent until proven guilty is a burden of proof maxim. We're free to disregard it outside of the courtroom for non-criminal purposes. The default should be to believe the victim in this circumstance. We have no evidence from TSJ other than a denial through his lawyer, and no evidence the victim is lying.
5. I agree with spark on the DIA. They've had 3 months to investigate and get ahead of this story. If their investigation concluded otherwise, they should be protecting their student-athlete now, and if it's just been a wait and see thing, they should at least have a statement crafted.
Well said. And you agree with Spark, who agreed with me lol
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First bet I lost, I said Kendrick Nunn wouldn’t come to Illinois. He does, but gets charged with a felony and kicked off the team.
The only other bet I’ve ever lost, I said Terrence Shannon Jr would not come back for his last season. He does, but gets charged with a felony and kicked off the team.
Even when I’m wrong, I’m right. Sucks to be you sparky!
Except you were wrong. And I'm still your daddy, bitch.
Repost the video.
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The lawyer says they were notified Wed of the charges.
The University put out a press release.
Whitman issued a statement that may be word for word what he tells the media tonight.
"The University and DIA have shown time and again that we have zero tolerance for sexual misconduct,” Director of Athletics Josh Whitman said. “At the same time, DIA policy affords student-athletes appropriate levels of due process based on the nature and severity of the allegations. We will rely on that policy and our prior experiences to manage this situation appropriately for the University and the involved parties.”
https://247sports.com/Article/illinois-fighting-illini-basketball-terrence-shannon-junior-arrest-rape-224069811/
I don't need a Whitman rushing to a microphone on Wed moment. The process will play out in due time.
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Looks I won the bet with Sparky about TSJ. Even when I’m temporarily wrong, I still end up being correct.
It’s good to be back.
No, you didn’t. Custard can we just ban him? This dude will never keep his word, ever
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First bet I lost, I said Kendrick Nunn wouldn’t come to Illinois. He does, but gets charged with a felony and kicked off the team.
The only other bet I’ve ever lost, I said Terrence Shannon Jr would not come back for his last season. He does, but gets charged with a felony and kicked off the team.
Even when I’m wrong, I’m right. Sucks to be you sparky!
Nah, just wrong as always. Time to go. Only a huge pussy wouldn’t be a man of his word.
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Bragging about being wrong at 117 am in response to a rape charge, as winners do.
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Bragging about being wrong at 117 am in response to a rape charge, as winners do.
As literally always, “I was objectively wrong but if you just pretend with me, then I can be right”.
Every single time.
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I believe that the following could apply and DA will have final say in which to proceed or not, in this case will be prosecuted on some level, after taking 3 months to bring charges.
21-5503. Rape. (a) Rape is:
(1) Knowingly engaging in sexual intercourse with a victim who does not consent to the sexual intercourse under any of the following circumstances:
(2) Knowingly engaging in sexual intercourse with a victim when the victim is incapable of giving consent because of mental deficiency or disease, or when the victim is incapable of giving consent because of the effect of any alcoholic liquor, narcotic, drug or other substance, which condition was known by the offender or was reasonably apparent to the offender; (bar encounter would apply obviously, alcohol can be the key to non consent being claimed and obviously both parties were in the bar and presumed to be drinking).
(3) Establishment will also be looked at based on Kansas law being, Under Kansas law, minors are allowed to consume alcohol if it is provided by a parent or legal guardian in their private residence and the guardian supervises. The alcohol must be a cereal malt beverage, which is defined as any fermented but undistilled liquor brewed or made from malt or from a mixture of malt or malt substitute, but not including any such liquor which is more than 3.2 percent alcohol by volume.
Alleged victim is over 16, under 21, and in bar according to reports, common sense seems to state if "she" was in a alcohol serving establishment and also using that as a reason to make the claims the DA is proceeding with, then she was drinking and she/the establishment are involved in that manner.
I am not saying this justifies the issue at hand, just that it will be involved in the final outcome/proceedings.
TSJ is being accused of a serious crime, the Kansas law is very subjective to say the least in regards to what would constitute the actual charge at hand, and TSJ being his age should have known better than to be involved in a bar situation, if that is in fact what occurred. I would venture to guess that any 23 year old kid would not know that ANY alcohol involved (1 drink) ANY could place them within violation of this law if one was to accuse them of this claim, which is exactly what is going on.
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From the Kansas Office of Revisor of Statutes ...
https://ksrevisor.org/statutes/chapters/ch21/021_055_0003.html
21-5503. Rape. (a) Rape is:
(1) Knowingly engaging in sexual intercourse with a victim who does not consent to the sexual intercourse under any of the following circumstances:
(A) When the victim is overcome by force or fear; or
(B) when the victim is unconscious or physically powerless;
(2) Knowingly engaging in sexual intercourse with a victim when the victim is incapable of giving consent because of mental deficiency or disease, or when the victim is incapable of giving consent because of the effect of any alcoholic liquor, narcotic, drug or other substance, which condition was known by the offender or was reasonably apparent to the offender;
The charge listed is a violation of 5503 a(1)(A) and lists the force or fear aspect. The charge does not specify an a(1)(B) violation.
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The charge listed is a violation of 5503 a(1)(A) and lists the force or fear aspect. The charge does not specify an a(1)(B) violation.
Correct the substantial charge is in violation of the one we referenced, the coercion of victim with or without alcohol can be applied to the lesser of charges. The class 1 sexual battery KSA21-5505 does involve this.
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The misdemeanor sexual battery charge is a KSA 21-5505(a) & (c)(1).
From what I read the charge would have to be Aggravated Sexual Battery, 5505(b) & (3), for an alcohol violation and then would be a felony.
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If I want to know anything about the Kansas rape statutes, I now know HQ2 is the place to go.
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If I want to know anything about the Kansas rape statutes, I now know HQ2 is the place to go.
Quite the brain trust we have here
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First bet I lost, I said Kendrick Nunn wouldn’t come to Illinois. He does, but gets charged with a felony and kicked off the team.
The only other bet I’ve ever lost, I said Terrence Shannon Jr would not come back for his last season. He does, but gets charged with a felony and kicked off the team.
Even when I’m wrong, I’m right. Sucks to be you sparky!
You were wrong on Nunn. You were wrong about Shannon. You were wrong about last year's 14 win prediction. All you do is take L's. Fuck off.
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If I want to know anything about the Kansas rape statutes, I now know HQ2 is the place to go.
Quite the brain trust we have here
HQ2 has a long history as a valuable source for the information, both right and wrong, that we need.
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via Illinoisloyalty, someone found a *insider* post (connected to Kansas Law Enforcement) from another source:
Cornicator said:
I live about 30 minutes Southeast of Lawrence and my wife, a KU alum, has multiple family members who work in Douglas County Law Enforcement. Here's some details:
1. The chick alleging the rape and intercourse without consent was NOT a KU student. Kind of a fascinating side note to this story and similar stories out of Lawrence involving student-athletes. The "victims" are almost always young minority women from Kansas City, Kansas or Topeka. The hot blonde KU sorority chicks from Leawood aren't the women levying out assault accusations at student-athletes. Interestingly enough, when a KU student-athlete also gets some woman pregnant, it is almost 100% someone in this crowd.
2. I've heard the Douglas County DA was initially hesitant about filing charges over credibility concerns regarding the allegations and the victim. And if you know anything about Susan Valdez, she usually jumps all over any type of rape case. The discussion among the local law enforcement is this victim wanted a relationship or something more from Shannon, and when he ghosted her, she started hurling allegations. he also apologized via electronic communication which could be considered an admission of guilt and that's why the DA decided to follow through with the charges.
I feel like Shannon and maybe even the Illini's 2023-24 season is likely shot. But, I do believe he will be ok in the future. I don't think this case will ever go to trial, and I absolutely believe he will never be convicted.
!!!
I knew it, some 18yo bimbo (non KU student) targeting athlete
"I was SETUP like a M***R F**R"
-- L.T. (Lawrence Taylor), NY Giants linebacker, ESPN Sports Century episode
[ got RIPPED OFF by con-man ]
"I don't know this guy [ possible con-man ]. What is he up to?"
-- Derek Jeter (aka "The Captain"), NY Yankee shortsthop
Groupie chicks are attracted to athletes, looking for "play"
"Girls just want to have fun"
I remember an ABC special on groupie chicks (WAY back in 90's) that goto professional sports games (e.g. NHL). Intent on getting some "action". Players *know* this & play-the-game. I remember that Dodgers player (hispanic) who had a taste for teen groupie chicks, he got into some trouble for that..
That fool Tiger Woods had a rolodex with 26-odd high-pricedhookers, finally got caught. His blonde Swedish wife threw a fit, attacked him with golf clubs. He drove off, hit a tree. He had some relationship with a waitress at the local restaurant
That Rick Pitino got exposed for similar type of action at a restaurant:
https://www.cnn.com/2017/09/27/sport/rick-pitino-scandal-history/index.html
Federal extortion case
In 2010, Pitino testified that he was a victim in a federal extortion case involving a woman who attempted to blackmail him after an affair.
Pitino, who is married, testified in court that he had sex with Karen Wise once at a Louisville restaurant in 2003. Weeks later, she called Pitino to say she was pregnant, according to court records. Pitino testified that he gave her $3,000, which she used to get an abortion.
The woman later married Tim Sypher, who was the equipment manager for Louisville and a former personal assistant to Pitino.
In February 2009, a friend of Karen Sypher’s left three voicemails for Pitino threatening that press reports could surface claiming that Pitino raped Sypher. Pitino denied the rape charge.
According to an affidavit, Sypher met with Pitino and wrote out a list of demands, including college tuition for her children, two cars and paying off her mortgage in exchange for her silence.
A criminal complaint against Sypher accused her of trying to extort Pitino, and she was found guilty in 2010 of several counts of extortion and lying to investigators and sentenced to seven years in prison.
^^^
I do believe TSJ got sucked into some "honey pot" scheme by this 18yo
Trevor Bauer (LA Dodgers pitcher, 38 million $$ contract) got SUCKED into an extortion scheme by a gold-digger:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/trevor-bauer-accuser-b2425434.html
The woman who accused former Los Angeles Dodgers pitcher Trevor Bauer of sexual assault has spoken out after he broke his silence to address the saga earlier this week.
Mr Bauer posted a video about the allegations after reaching a settlement agreement with Lindsey Hill. The pair had filed lawsuits against each other after prosecutors declined to bring charges against Mr Bauer. No money changed hands in the settlement.
In the social media video, the former Dodger read texts from Ms Hill, seemingly painting her claims as a method for her to get money from him.
“‘Next victim. Star pitcher for the Dodgers,’” Mr Bauer said, allegedly quoting his accuser. “A text Lindsey Hill sent to a friend before she ever even met me. ‘What should I steal?’ she asked another, in reference to visiting my house for the first time. The answer? ‘Take his money.’”
Ms Hill responded to his video in an interview on “Prime Time with Alex Stein,” where the host asked her to explain the messages, saying, “Those texts are bad though, Lindsey.”
Ms Hill conceded that “victim” was not the best choice of word to use. She said she used the term jokingly, as she has “been involved with other baseball players”.
She continued, “That was my world at the time and I had already dated baseball players and it was a funny, sarcastic way to say, ‘Here’s the next one I’m going to try to get attention from,’ and it was a lot of ego and attention-seeking behaviour, which is what I can own and what he can’t do is own any part. I can totally own the attention-seeking behaviour but these texts in the grand scheme don’t address what happened at all. This was before any of our interactions or anything like that.”
https://x.com/BauerOutage/status/1708904525724270659?s=20
The GARBAGE by Josh Whitman:
"The University and DIA have shown time and again that we have zero tolerance for sexual misconduct," Illinois athletic director Josh Whitman said in a university press release. "At the same time, DIA policy affords student-athletes appropriate levels of due process based on the nature and severity of the allegations. We will rely on that policy and our prior experiences to manage this situation appropriately for the University and the involved parties."
Your player got SUCKED into some honey-pot extortion scheme. You & Underwood (as well as DIA) have to take blame as well..DUMB A**!!
Yeah, YOU GOT SUCKED TOO!
"Sammy, it's Hollywood. Suck a D**K, this Bud's for you!"
-- Sam Kinison, comedian (from Peoria/IL)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGw3soM07Yw
"He sucks you right in. CONSIDER YOURSELF SUCKED"
-- Bill Parcells (aka Big Tuna), 2 Superbowl wins
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I take back the brain trust comment
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The fuck?
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The fuck?
Reads like a teamwork orange schizo post to me lol
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via Illinoisloyalty, someone found a *insider* post (connected to Kansas Law Enforcement) from another source:
Cornicator said:
!!!
I knew it, some 18yo bimbo (non KU student) targeting athlete
"I was SETUP like a M***R F**R"
-- L.T. (Lawrence Taylor), NY Giants linebacker, ESPN Sports Century episode
[ got RIPPED OFF by con-man ]
"I don't know this guy [ possible con-man ]. What is he up to?"
-- Derek Jeter (aka "The Captain"), NY Yankee shortsthop
Groupie chicks are attracted to athletes, looking for "play"
"Girls just want to have fun"
I remember an ABC special on groupie chicks (WAY back in 90's) that goto professional sports games (e.g. NHL). Intent on getting some "action". Players *know* this & play-the-game. I remember that Dodgers player (hispanic) who had a taste for teen groupie chicks, he got into some trouble for that..
That fool Tiger Woods had a rolodex with 26-odd high-pricedhookers, finally got caught. His blonde Swedish wife threw a fit, attacked him with golf clubs. He drove off, hit a tree. He had some relationship with a waitress at the local restaurant
That Rick Pitino got exposed for similar type of action at a restaurant:
https://www.cnn.com/2017/09/27/sport/rick-pitino-scandal-history/index.html
^^^
I do believe TSJ got sucked into some "honey pot" scheme by this 18yo
Trevor Bauer (LA Dodgers pitcher, 38 million $$ contract) got SUCKED into an extortion scheme by a gold-digger:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/trevor-bauer-accuser-b2425434.html
https://x.com/BauerOutage/status/1708904525724270659?s=20
The GARBAGE by Josh Whitman:
Your player got SUCKED into some honey-pot extortion scheme. You & Underwood (as well as DIA) have to take blame as well..DUMB A**!!
Yeah, YOU GOT SUCKED TOO!
"Sammy, it's Hollywood. Suck a D**K, this Bud's for you!"
-- Sam Kinison, comedian (from Peoria/IL)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGw3soM07Yw
"He sucks you right in. CONSIDER YOURSELF SUCKED"
-- Bill Parcells (aka Big Tuna), 2 Superbowl wins
Good to have you back. You know Teamwork Orange?
-
via Illinoisloyalty, someone found a *insider* post (connected to Kansas Law Enforcement) from another source:
Cornicator said:
!!!
I knew it, some 18yo bimbo (non KU student) targeting athlete
"I was SETUP like a M***R F**R"
-- L.T. (Lawrence Taylor), NY Giants linebacker, ESPN Sports Century episode
[ got RIPPED OFF by con-man ]
"I don't know this guy [ possible con-man ]. What is he up to?"
-- Derek Jeter (aka "The Captain"), NY Yankee shortsthop
Groupie chicks are attracted to athletes, looking for "play"
"Girls just want to have fun"
I remember an ABC special on groupie chicks (WAY back in 90's) that goto professional sports games (e.g. NHL). Intent on getting some "action". Players *know* this & play-the-game. I remember that Dodgers player (hispanic) who had a taste for teen groupie chicks, he got into some trouble for that..
That fool Tiger Woods had a rolodex with 26-odd high-pricedhookers, finally got caught. His blonde Swedish wife threw a fit, attacked him with golf clubs. He drove off, hit a tree. He had some relationship with a waitress at the local restaurant
That Rick Pitino got exposed for similar type of action at a restaurant:
https://www.cnn.com/2017/09/27/sport/rick-pitino-scandal-history/index.html
^^^
I do believe TSJ got sucked into some "honey pot" scheme by this 18yo
Trevor Bauer (LA Dodgers pitcher, 38 million $$ contract) got SUCKED into an extortion scheme by a gold-digger:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/trevor-bauer-accuser-b2425434.html
https://x.com/BauerOutage/status/1708904525724270659?s=20
The GARBAGE by Josh Whitman:
Your player got SUCKED into some honey-pot extortion scheme. You & Underwood (as well as DIA) have to take blame as well..DUMB A**!!
Yeah, YOU GOT SUCKED TOO!
"Sammy, it's Hollywood. Suck a D**K, this Bud's for you!"
-- Sam Kinison, comedian (from Peoria/IL)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGw3soM07Yw
"He sucks you right in. CONSIDER YOURSELF SUCKED"
-- Bill Parcells (aka Big Tuna), 2 Superbowl wins
(https://media.tenor.com/SeIepC9pV6sAAAAe/what-the-fuck-did-i-just-read-what-the-fuck.png)
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Nah, just wrong as always. Time to go. Only a huge pussy wouldn’t be a man of his word.
Another one was I said Illinois wouldn’t make the 2020 tourney and voila Covid.
It’s almost as if the universe makes sure I’m ultimately correct
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Another one was I said Illinois wouldn’t make the 2020 tourney and voila Covid.
It’s almost as if the universe makes sure I’m ultimately correct
Repost the video. That would be the ultimately correct thing to do, loser, squeaky guy with the sweats.
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Imagine having the complete lack of shame it takes to come back here at all, let alone to demonstrate the psychosis required to pretend he was right all along. Damn.
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Another one was I said Illinois wouldn’t make the 2020 tourney and voila Covid.
It’s almost as if the universe makes sure I’m ultimately correct
Sorry, you being wrong about all this shit over and over is the Universe telling you you were right? Lol.
I saw you on Scout talking about the timeline of a rape case - one of the few things you have any credibility on.
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Another one was I said Illinois wouldn’t make the 2020 tourney and voila Covid.
It’s almost as if the universe makes sure I’m ultimately correct
You might want to have a talk with the universe then since you've been dead fucking wrong with every prediction you posted.
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You might want to have a talk with the universe then since you've been dead fucking wrong with every prediction you posted.
He lives in one of those bizarro universes where everything is the opposite. Like a universe where Weber is a great offensive coach.
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He lives in one of those bizarro universes where everything is the opposite. Like a universe where Weber is a great offensive coach.
Wait Weber was a coach?
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From Whitman's presser:
He "inappropriately touched" the accuser in a bar.
Says a determination on his playing status is possible before legal resolution takes place.
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“Grab em by the pussy” only works if you are Donald Trump. Not gonna work for a guy like TSJ.
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“Grab em by the pussy” only works if you are Donald Trump. Not gonna work for a guy like TSJ.
Sure. If you don't count the civil suit by E. Jean Carroll.
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One of my kids asked what happened to TSJ and I said he was charged with assault then said and rape in a quieter voice. My wife yelled at me for saying the R word.
I looked confused and apologized. Thirty seconds later and like at least one more time since the commentators said it.
Sux on so many levels. Such a serious offense.
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One of my kids asked what happened to TSJ and I said he was charged with assault then said and rape in a quieter voice. My wife yelled at me for saying the R word.
I looked confused and apologized. Thirty seconds later and like at least one more time since the commentators said it.
Sux on so many levels. Such a serious offense.
It sounds like what Jason Reda did. I think people were more appalled at Reda being gay though than anything else
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God what a fucking pussy truth is lol
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God what a fucking pussy truth is lol
The complete lack of dignity is such a beta vibe.
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The complete lack of dignity is such a beta vibe.
All his dignity deserted him when he hit "upload" for that video on The YouTube.
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All his dignity deserted him when he hit "upload" for that video on The YouTube.
Yeah whatever tattered shreds may have remained were tossed to the wind in that moment
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I went on Loyalty to see what they were saying - Jesus Christ they already have the whole case figured out. One dude literally even asked if it was possible this was like some KU athletics scheme to fuck us over.
Our fans make me sick sometimes. Like I get saying “at least wait for the facts to come out before you judge him” but they’re in full “FREE TSJ” mode and that’s fucked up based on what we know right now.
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Your first mistake was reading Loyalty.
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I went on Loyalty to see what they were saying - Jesus Christ they already have the whole case figured out.
Our fans make me sick sometimes. Like I get saying “at least wait for the facts to come out before you judge him” but they’re in full “FREE TSJ” mode and that’s fucked up based on what we know right now.
Based on what we know right now, it appears the lessor alternative charge might be justified.
Whitman confirmed the Internet rumor that his misdeed was inappropriate touching in a bar.
Had this been on the level of forcible rape, it would almost certainly would have sparked an immediate outrage.
.
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I read a fair amount over there last night and saw both ends of the spectrum. Most are understandably loathe to victim blame/presume innocence. But it is an odd case at a very odd time for a guy who—by all accounts—has been a very high character guy. And it’s not like it’s super rare for shit like this to happen to high profile athletes. I don’t think defending Shannon is the low hanging meatball fruit that spark thinks it is.
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Hahaha reading loyalty. They will be planning an insurrection against the DA of KC or Lawrence or wherever.
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Whitman confirmed the Internet rumor that his misdeed was inappropriate touching in a bar.
Did Whitman interview the victim and witness?
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Did Whitman interview the victim and witness?
Didn't he say he read the police report?
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Hahaha reading loyalty. They will be planning an insurrection against the DA of KC or Lawrence or wherever.
It's the chief ADA of Douglas County KS that filed the complaint on December 5.
Her boss, Valdez, the DA that hired her faces suspension for unethical conduct. Judges will not meet with her privately because she twists their words.
It's said that both are activists with a bias.
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I read a fair amount over there last night and saw both ends of the spectrum. Most are understandably loathe to victim blame/presume innocence. But it is an odd case at a very odd time for a guy who—by all accounts—has been a very high character guy. And it’s not like it’s super rare for shit like this to happen to high profile athletes. I don’t think defending Shannon is the low hanging meatball fruit that spark thinks it is.
Again, I think saying “let’s wait until we know more before we condemn this dude for life” is completely justified.
Saying “FREE TSJ” is undoubtedly some meatball shit.
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It's the chief ADA of Douglas County KS that filed the complaint on December 5.
Her boss, Valdez, the DA that hired her faces suspension for unethical conduct. Judges will not meet with her privately because she twists their words.
It's said that both are activists with a bias.
Jesus fuck
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It's the chief ADA of Douglas County KS that filed the complaint on December 5.
Her boss, Valdez, the DA that hired her faces suspension for unethical conduct. Judges will not meet with her privately because she twists their words.
It's said that both are activists with a bias.
Hooefully they are biased against violent criminals, but I doubt that is what you meant.
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Did Whitman interview the victim and witness?
I would have to listen to the video again to be certain. My recollection is the Lawrence police contacted the UI police and the UI police spoke with him.
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Didn't he say he read the police report?
I didn't hear the whole press conference, but Whitman has no way of knowing with any level of confidence at this point the entirety of the evidence against TSJ.
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I didn't hear the whole press conference, but Whitman has no way of knowing with any level of confidence at this point the entirety of the evidence against TSJ.
No, but if he read the report and TSJ confirmed to him the finger banging in the bar part....
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I would have to listen to the video again to be certain. My recollection is the Lawrence police contacted the UI police and the UI police spoke with him.
That's nearly worthless. Neither of those agencies have any obligation to be truthful or exhaustive with him.
Absent knowing what the actual witnesses are telling the prosecutors, he doesn't really know anything.
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Inappropriate touching in a bar?! Give me a fucking break. This is ridiculous. So he fingered a girl in a bar, so what?! What the fuck can you do against somebody’s will in a public setting?! Sounds like she was pissed he wouldn’t date or be with her or some shit and said I’ll show you bullshit. You don’t just walk up to someone and start fingering them. What the fuck?! Then they have a nerve to charge a guy with rape and shit?! Totally fucking this guy’s reputation and character if nothing comes of it with the rape charge. Seriously?!
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No, but if he read the report and TSJ confirmed to him the finger banging in the bar part....
And if the woman tells a jury it was actually intercourse in the bar bathroom, what then?
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I didn't hear the whole press conference, but Whitman has no way of knowing with any level of confidence at this point the entirety of the evidence against TSJ.
Whitman did at one point say or imply they had reached out to LPD a couple of times asking for more information without hearing much back.
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And if the woman tells a jury it was actually intercourse in the bar bathroom, what then?
There cameras in this establishment??
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https://www.youtube.com/live/7z-nITWU-LY
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calvin’s a real one
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And if the woman tells a jury it was actually intercourse in the bar bathroom, what then?
I would guess the cops on the witness list would then be asked, if that is not in the report, if she had mentioned that in their interviews with her. No?
One question: if Guenther Jr. actually mentioned his discussions with TSJ, where he allegedly admitted finger banging her, did Guenther, Jr. make himself a possible witness? Not that the prosecutor could subpoena him.
I admit to flying blind here as I have only read message board reports are the press conference.
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'Whitman said the UIPD learned the allegations stemmed from a public incident that took place at a bar in Lawrence where Shannon interacted with a young woman and engaged in "inappropriate touching." Whitman added that none of the information they received early on was substantiated or indicated any specific charges that would be brought against Shannon."
https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/news/shannon-illini-whitman/
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Next up:
"The Student-Athlete Conduct Panel shall convene within 48 hours of DIA providing notice to the student-athlete of the interim action.'
"The Panel will not act as an investigative body but will exercise good faith and reasonable judgment to draw needed conclusions based on the information available to it at the time it convenes. The Panel will undertake an individualized analysis to determine whether the available information justifies withholding the student-athlete from some or all athletic activities pending resolution ..."
https://fightingillini.com/sports/2022/7/21/student-conduct-policies-sa-handbook
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This is ridiculous. So he fingered a girl in a bar, so what?!
Dude really? It’s not legal to just go grab any girl by her pussy if she doesn’t want you to do it. On what planet do you live?
I assume this girl created a big enough scene at the bar to know that was not ok, given she went to the police immediately after, and the police reviewed all the evidence and determined there was enough to charge him.
Some of you guys are nuts.
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I would guess the cops on the witness list would then be asked, if that is not in the report, if she had mentioned that in their interviews with her. No?
One question: if Guenther Jr. actually mentioned his discussions with TSJ, where he allegedly admitted finger banging her, did Guenther, Jr. make himself a possible witness? Not that the prosecutor could subpoena him.
I admit to flying blind here as I have only read message board reports are the press conference.
Police reports are generally inadmissible, unless KS is weird. Cops may use them to refresh their recollection but the best you'll get is likely "I don't recall that" if a witness claims they said something and it's not in the cop's report.
If you relay what TSJ said verbatim, it's a statement the prosecutor could try to admit against TSJ. Yes, they could subpoena Whitman or Underwood or any other non-attorney.
None of this means the case has merit. I just caution people to take what an AD says about what a cop told him as anything dispositive as to what will actually show up at trial.
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I would guess the cops on the witness list would then be asked, if that is not in the report, if she had mentioned that in their interviews with her. No?
One question: if Guenther Jr. actually mentioned his discussions with TSJ, where he allegedly admitted finger banging her, did Guenther, Jr. make himself a possible witness? Not that the prosecutor could subpoena him.
I admit to flying blind here as I have only read message board reports are the press conference.
If you listen to Whitman, he claims he asked TSJ about the incident and TSJ lawyered up and didn’t tell Illinois officials anything
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Dude really? It’s not legal to just go grab any girl by her pussy if she doesn’t want you to do it. On what planet do you live?
I assume this girl created a big enough scene at the bar to know that was not ok, given she went to the police immediately after, and the police reviewed all the evidence and determined there was enough to charge him.
Some of you guys are nuts.
You don’t just walk up to a girl and finger her without her consent in a fucking bar. This whole thing is dumb as fuck. Rape?! Gtfooh
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You don’t just walk up to a girl and finger her without her consent in a fucking bar. This whole thing is dumb as fuck. Rape?! Gtfooh
Actually I could envision that scenario easily happening. Not at a bar like a Muphys where there’s just people standing around, but if it’s a dancing club type bar and guy gets too handsy while dancing and grabs her. Plus given how big Shannon hands are perhaps there was enough of a squeeze to cause physical damage.
I think the videotape is the key. If she doesn’t react much at all to what she claims happened, then no case. But if she turns around and abruptly confronts him and creates a scene, and that’s again on a bar camera, then it looks bad for Shannon and I think is really the only way you could bring a charge like this and get a conviction.
And I think the two charges on him are trying to distinguish touching vs penetration.
Sucks for him but he really should just pay her off if they have that type of video evidence to get it to go away and not ruin his career. Given it’s been 3 months, maybe those things were considered but never hammered out so she went forward with the case.
DA would only prosecute this case if the victim wanted it prosecuted and was willing to testify
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calvin’s a real one
I'm not even trying to be a pessimist but you can't conclude anything based on what a defendant says and how some random cops summarize things. Neither of those are what the state is looking at to get to a jury.
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If you listen to Whitman, he claims he asked TSJ about the incident and TSJ lawyered up and didn’t tell Illinois officials anything
Good.
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Police reports are generally inadmissible, unless KS is weird. Cops may use them to refresh their recollection but the best you'll get is likely "I don't recall that" if a witness claims they said something and it's not in the cop's report.
The police report is inadmissible hearsay (I believe). However, if something is not in the report, the attorney will then ask the cops about the missing part, did she say it? If she had said it, you would have included it in the report, etc. etc.
Perry Mason won many a preliminary hearing taking on Detective Tragg and his men about what was not in the police report, much to DA Hamilton Burger's chagrin.
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If you listen to Whitman, he claims he asked TSJ about the incident and TSJ lawyered up and didn’t tell Illinois officials anything
That sounds like he got good advice. You wonder why Guenther Jr would even ask him about it under these circumstances, but ok...
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given how big Shannon hands are perhaps there was enough of a squeeze to cause physical damage.
touching vs penetration.
Sounds like your girlfriend’s Christmas list.
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That sounds like he got good advice. You wonder why Guenther Jr would even ask him about it under these circumstances, but ok...
I assume to provide cover for the DIA that they did enough due diligence in looking into it but ultimately decided to keep playing him.
I think if this had happened on Illinois campus with another Illinois student, he’d have been suspended immediately. I think that’s what got Baylor in trouble (not following up on complaints vs their athletes).
But Whitman probably thinking “we know nothing, TSJ won’t talk, he hadn’t been charged, business as normal”. It was obvious business as normal for the advertising dept. Shannon was in everything
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Sounds like your girlfriend’s Christmas list.
BBH…big black hands..😂
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I'm not even trying to be a pessimist but you can't conclude anything based on what a defendant says and how some random cops summarize things. Neither of those are what the state is looking at to get to a jury.
Totally agree with you. And some of the shit I’m reading from Illini fans on this are really horrible.
I’m certainly amenable to the idea that Shannon is totally innocent or it isn’t as bad as it seems or whatever but we have like basically no evidence at all supporting that. Basically the extent of the information we have here is: it happened in a bar
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Actually I could envision that scenario easily happening. Not at a bar like a Muphys where there’s just people standing around, but if it’s a dancing club type bar and guy gets too handsy while dancing and grabs her. Plus given how big Shannon hands are perhaps there was enough of a squeeze to cause physical damage.
I think the videotape is the key. If she doesn’t react much at all to what she claims happened, then no case. But if she turns around and abruptly confronts him and creates a scene, and that’s again on a bar camera, then it looks bad for Shannon and I think is really the only way you could bring a charge like this and get a conviction.
And I think the two charges on him are trying to distinguish touching vs penetration.
Sucks for him but he really should just pay her off if they have that type of video evidence to get it to go away and not ruin his career. Given it’s been 3 months, maybe those things were considered but never hammered out so she went forward with the case.
DA would only prosecute this case if the victim wanted it prosecuted and was willing to testify
Where do you even get this shit?! How do you know?!
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Where do you even get this shit?! How do you know?!
What else could it be?
*bar or club (public place)
*some kind of touching with severity/extent in question
*a rape with force charge
I mean I think it’d be hard to charge someone with fingerbanging if they were in a public place and there wasn’t multiple witnesses or video tape to corraborrate what happened
And to get a rape with force charge the rape kit had to show something - physical damage etc. Shannon has huge hands.
I really doubt any figure, much less a public one, gets charged with no evidence other than “he fingered me”. “No I didn’t”
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Truth coming back with a (finger) bang.
Fortunately for TSJ, Dom is usually wrong. So he has that going for him.
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https://sports.yahoo.com/illinois-blindsided-by-rape-charge-against-star-guard-terrence-shannon-jr-132037184.html
Pretty much sums up all questions to date as far as timeline, university actions, TSJ level of actions/relaying to university etc. No lets see what plays out, if in fact all were blindsided, misdemeanor, pled down/dismissed entirely?
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Well, well, well.....who better to try and pontificate on IlliniHq2 on sexual assault than Dominic the Pedophile?
I am surprised Custard is allowing him to stay.
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He’s a fuckin coward
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Actually I could envision that scenario easily happening. Not at a bar like a Muphys where there’s just people standing around, but if it’s a dancing club type bar and guy gets too handsy while dancing and grabs her. Plus given how big Shannon hands are perhaps there was enough of a squeeze to cause physical damage.
I think the videotape is the key. If she doesn’t react much at all to what she claims happened, then no case. But if she turns around and abruptly confronts him and creates a scene, and that’s again on a bar camera, then it looks bad for Shannon and I think is really the only way you could bring a charge like this and get a conviction.
And I think the two charges on him are trying to distinguish touching vs penetration.
Sucks for him but he really should just pay her off if they have that type of video evidence to get it to go away and not ruin his career. Given it’s been 3 months, maybe those things were considered but never hammered out so she went forward with the case.
DA would only prosecute this case if the victim wanted it prosecuted and was willing to testify
19yo USC female student was aggressor at a bar (kissing him on the neck), drags him outside to take Uber back to campus. They were both drunk, head to his frat. Bros tell him it's too risky
"she's too drunk to give consent"
They head back to her dorm room, they have sex. He goes to bathroom, comes out & her roommate confronts him. Girl wakes up CONFUSED..doesn't remember anything. Claims rape!
Guy gets arrested, but gets cleared by bar video (inside & outside)
@cdmcintyre1854 (2 years ago)
Girls getting drunk consenting to sex or even starting it then waking up the next day with REGRET or friends urging her to file charges against her target of the night before. This is just as bad as a young man actually forcing of taking advantage of a drunk girl. Both instances are very bad and the truth may be impossible to determine. The safest thing for men is to avoid a drunk female
@poopingwhilestanding5801 (6 years ago)
As a former USC alumni, I wrote the University Provost and stated my outrage that he was still being considered for expulsion after he was cleared by the LAPD. He replied that under Title IX, they're required to hold their own college "proceedings" to continue to receive Federal funding. I replied that's the last of any contribution I'll be making to the school and that his response clearly shows double jeopardy which in a criminal court is against the law.
TSJ is facing some GARBAGE 3-member committee (kangaroo court) "judgement", setup by Josh Whitman
https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-usc-campus-dorm-charges-dropped-20170731-story.html
Prosecutors will no longer pursue a case against a USC student accused of raping a fellow undergraduate after a judge’s decision that there was not enough evidence to send the case to trial, the Los Angeles County district attorney’s office said Monday.
Charges will not be refiled against 20-year-old Armaan Karim Premjee, who was accused of sexually assaulting a 19-year-old student in her campus dorm on April 1, said Shiara Davila-Morales, a spokeswoman for the district attorney’s office. Premjee’s preliminary hearing was held in Los Angeles Superior Court last week.
Premjee was charged in May with rape by use of drugs and sexual penetration by a foreign object.
On Monday, Premjee’s attorney, Harland Braun, said the judge tossed out the case after the defense presented video evidence that showed consent.
Braun said Premjee and the woman were at Banditos Tacos & Tequila, near the USC campus, that night in April and that security footage showed them waiting for an Uber ride.
“There was a camera outside that captured the girl signaling to her friend that she was going to have intercourse with my client,” Braun said. The woman, he said, made motions with her hands that indicated sexual activity.
“There could never be any better evidence of there being consent,” Braun said. He added: “She was the aggressor.”
Premjee told the Times that he met the woman for the first time that night and that they had consensual sex. He said the woman made sexually-suggestive hand gestures to her friend twice behind his back.
“I’m very relieved,” he said of the judge’s decision. “I’ve always maintained a lot of faith in the justice system.”
Premjee said the publicity of the case has been “very stressful” and that he plans to return to USC in the fall. He will be entering his junior year and is studying business administration, he said.
Prosecutors had said the woman’s roommate walked in during the alleged attack.
“Premjee went into a bathroom and when he returned, the roommate confronted him and he left,” the district attorney’s office said in a statement in May, when the charges were announced.
LAPD Capt. Billy Hayes said the alleged assault “was reported immediately” to USC’s Department of Public Safety early on the morning of April 1.
Two weeks later, Premjee was arrested by officers with the LAPD’s Robbery-Homicide Division. He was released after posting $100,000 bail, according to jail records.
University officials said they could not confirm whether USC was conducting its own investigation.
“Information pertaining to student disciplinary records and proceedings or any matter of student conduct are confidential and protected by federal privacy laws,” the university said in a statement.
ABC did a report on above case, & another (U of Tenn/Chattanooga):
Drunk girl has consensual sex with wrestler (Corey Mock), she wakes up drunk (she at base of bed, he at head of bed). Confused (doesn't remember anything), then FALSELY claims RAPE!
"I thought it was ABSURD that they would make a [ rape ] charge against me"
-- Pamerjee
^^^ This seems to be TSJ's case, just ABSURD!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBPEqZZTM4k
^^^ "a fun night out can easily get out of control"
"He said his son was COMPLETELY BLINDSIDED"
"It's on his record, his life is RUINED. He was just blown away, he didn't know how to react
Would I think that he would ever be involved with sexual assault. ABSOLUTELY NOT"
-- C.D. Mock, Corey's dad
The University initially dismissed the charges, in a non-criminal hearing. But weeks later, reversed that ruling, finding him responsible. But after that, a local court ruled that they improperly "shifted the burden of proof"
NO CHARGES WERE BROUGHT
TSJ faced charges made outside of U of I (Lawrence/KS), he was arrested. U of I/DIA suspended him. Now, TSJ faces some 3-member committee (internal U of I kangaroo court)
I believe the above 2 cases mirror what happened to TSJ
USC, U of Tenn/Chattanooga..now U of I. The TSJ has an interesting twist, the incident happened OUTSIDE of the "home" Univ.
KEY THING:
NEED to get that video (inside & outside).
TSJ was driven to Lawrence in a car, there were other people in his party. They were likely at the bar. Potential witnesses
"Loren Tate said Bill Self (KU basketball coach, formerly Illini coach) is trying hard to help TSJ"
^^^ There was ANOTHER rape case in Lawrence/KS, involving KU basketball player Arterio Morris:
https://www2.kusports.com/sports/2023/oct/11/woman-alleges-in-affidavit-that-ku-basketball-player-violently-raped-her-as-she-begged-him-to-stop-deputy-da-wanted-document-kept-secret/
I believe Bill Self realizes that TSJ really got screwed, & being a former Illini, plus a nice guy..he wants to help
Plus, sketchi-ness of Lawrence/KS DA:
Prosecutor asks panel to suspend Douglas County DA’s law license after day 3 of disciplinary hearing
https://lawrencekstimes.com/2023/12/20/valdez-hrg-day3/
This whole thing reeks of STUPIDITY:
Lawrence/KS law (Garbage), U of I/DIA (Junk), U of I academics (Failed Leadership), NCAA (Junk)
Poor TSJ got caught up in the mess..
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(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/76/df/25/76df254f242cd28f4eff92503b86a9a5.gif)
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Jesus Christ this incident brings out the most psychopathic stupidest motherfuckers in forum history.
This chimpanzee dumpster fire, and of course Dominic The Pedophile.
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Jesus Christ this incident brings out the most psychopathic stupidest motherfuckers in forum history.
This chimpanzee dumpster fire, and of course Dominic The Pedophile.
I think he is back, unless he doesn't want to come back before the preliminary hearing, next week when that committee meets. Thoughts?
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I missed Teamwork Orange and SEOhioIllini or whatever his name was. Need Fido McCokefiend back.
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Imagine having the complete lack of shame it takes to come back here at all, let alone to demonstrate the psychosis required to pretend he was right all along. Damn.
Don’t you dare deny us this wonderful entertainment.
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I missed Teamwork Orange and SEOhioIllini or whatever his name was. Need Fido McCokefiend back.
Fido was the man. Probably my favorite poster.
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Don’t you dare deny us this wonderful entertainment.
Yes we all love Truth…
Fucking pussy cannot even keep his word. Just a beta through and through
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Jesus Christ this incident brings out the most psychopathic stupidest motherfuckers in forum history.
This chimpanzee dumpster fire, and of course Dominic The Pedophile.
And to the shock and surprise of no one, Dom returns after a catastrophic event occurs because it gets him hard that we might actually miss the tournament now.
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I’m sure he’ll predict we’ll miss now, then if we lose in the second round say “well I was pretty much right”. His entire life revolves around pretending he was right about shit he was wrong about.
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If Illinois were to reinstate Shannon with an active rape charge pending, it could be a landmark NCAA decision that sets a new precedent of not punishing athletes until a criminal matter has been decided in a court of law.
I don’t think they would do it bc the fear of offending people is bigger than the reward of winning basketball games (to them) but I would like to see them do it.
What is the argument against playing Shannon?
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That he has a pending felony rape charge.
Recognize that’s just a regular week for you obviously but…
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That he has a pending felony rape charge.
Recognize that’s just a regular week for you obviously but…
Are people with criminal charges not allowed to continue working? Does Apple suspend their employees if they face criminal charges unrelated to work?
If Shannon is allowed to continue his classes at Illinois (which nobody has said he’s been suspended from school). why shouldn’t he be allowed to play basketball? Basketball is not a privilege. It’s a job.
Is the public safer by not letting Shannon play? Seems to me if he’s spending time playing ball that means less time to commit other rapes. Wouldn’t the public be safer if he was still on the basketball team?
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Here you go…
https://x.com/wcia3bret/status/1740935365891108999?s=46&t=nLWTarDKWNHMqYhTVD-LQQ
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This is Illinois chance to starts a Men’s Rights, inverse MeToo movement by reinstating Shannon. Short of bringing back the Chief, it’d be one of the proudest moments I’d ever have if IL reinstates him.
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When is the panel deciding? Has to within 48 hours right? Today?
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I have the radical position that TSJ should be considered innocent until proven guilty.
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I have the radical position that TSJ should be considered innocent until proven guilty.
Agreed. Anybody can make accusations against anybody. Doesn’t make them guilty until due process…
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This is Illinois chance to starts a Men’s Rights, inverse MeToo movement by reinstating Shannon. Short of bringing back the Chief, it’d be one of the proudest moments I’d ever have if IL reinstates him.
Hahahhahahaha
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No matter what happens, we will still be better than Michigan. 👍
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FWIW, here's illini0440's info on the situation
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z4BXCS3X/Screenshot-2023-12-31-000039.png)
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FWIW, here's illini0440's info on the situation
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z4BXCS3X/Screenshot-2023-12-31-000039.png)
Oh OK that settles it then
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Oh OK that settles it then
Good thing Guenther Jr was on top of everything.
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LOL. The insiders at Loyalty are a complete laughingstock after last summer's PG recruiting fiasco.
I have no idea what actually happened or the specific basis of the evidence for the charges but they sure as hell don't.
I also laughed about the alleged report that Tate said Self is "trying to help".
Is he going to make a call to some Senators and make it go away??
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LOL. The insiders at Loyalty are a complete laughingstock after last summer's PG recruiting fiasco.
I have no idea what actually happened or the specific basis of the evidence for the charges but they sure as hell don't.
I also laughed about the alleged report that Tate said Self is "trying to help".
Is he going to make a call to some Senators and make it go away??
Well if anyone knows how to get out of trouble it’d be Self… 😂
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Well if anyone knows how to get out of trouble it’d be Self… 😂
Self hasn’t helped Arterio Morris. How could he help Shannon?
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Perhaps TSJ needs to get Rob McColley on the case. I recall when Jaylon Tate got in trouble, Rob went in a crusade to prove Tate’s innocence
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Saw online what the local police report sent out as the "report" to a local newspaper in response to a FOIA request. She filed a police report the day after the football game.
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TSJ is nowhere to be found in the Top-100 NBA Draft prospects for 2024 anymore…
https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/38788364/2024-nba-draft-rankings-espn-top-25-prospects
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TSJ is nowhere to be found in the Top-100 NBA Draft prospects for 2024 anymore…
https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/38788364/2024-nba-draft-rankings-espn-top-25-prospects
Was stopping by the forum hoping for a miracle announcement that he's back. Nope instead I see future draft protections excluding him like he'll be in jail.
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Take it for what it’s worth…
https://x.com/bearszn42/status/1742389033672515897?s=46&t=nLWTarDKWNHMqYhTVD-LQQ
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When you're tweeting about an open rape case and your tweet starts "I don't know if this is true but" you should cancel your tweet and shut the fuck up.
I wish our fans would stop sharing this kind of shit all over the Internet and let the process play out. If there is more real evidence and information, not unsourced rumor and innuendo, we will find that out in time.
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yeah I'm sure Bill Self is taking time out of his busy schedule to help
lol
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When you're tweeting about an open rape case and your tweet starts "I don't know if this is true but" you should cancel your tweet and shut the fuck up.
I wish our fans would stop sharing this kind of shit all over the Internet and let the process play out. If there is more real evidence and information, not unsourced rumor and innuendo, we will find that out in time.
I didn’t post that. Just sharing here what’s being thrown out there in the Twitterverse.
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You did post it here though.
Let it play out. Let's get real evidence and stop sharing every unsourced rumor an Illini fan posts on Twitter.
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Yeah, I am sure she has "tried this with Kansas players", but was not successful in bringing charges but when Illinois was in town the DA was all over it. ::)
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You did post it here though.
Let it play out. Let's get real evidence and stop sharing every unsourced rumor an Illini fan posts on Twitter.
Well, being this is an Illini message board I think people would find it interesting to discuss here. After all, that’s what this board is for. Nobody is saying I endorse that or think it’s appropriate. What does it matter if I post it here or not? It’s not hurting anything.
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Because it's not that hard to be a grown up and wait for some real evidence to exist rather than sharing out every unsourced rumor that comes out on Illini Twitter? It's an extremely serious situation and really fucking ugly stuff to continue sharing this sort of rumor without supporting evidence.
You said "I didn't post it", but you did. It's here because of you, not because of that Twitter guy (who also didn't post it). You want to post this kind of shit here, but you also want to avoid any accountability for it. Be better. Wait until there's evidence.
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Because it's not that hard to be a grown up and wait for some real evidence to exist rather than sharing out every unsourced rumor that comes out on Illini Twitter? It's an extremely serious situation and really fucking ugly stuff to continue sharing this sort of rumor without supporting evidence.
You said "I didn't post it", but you did. It's here because of you, not because of that Twitter guy (who also didn't post it). You want to post this kind of shit here, but you also want to avoid any accountability for it. Be better. Wait until there's evidence.
This board is to discuss that shit and I’ll post whatever the fuck I want, Sparky. You can take your self-righteous ass somewhere else if you don’t like it. Got it? Good. Now fuck off. You are a condescending asshole.
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I mean yeah, of course you're going to post stupid ass shit. It's What You Do. It's what you have done for as long as I've known you.
I obviously knew when I said "it's not that hard to be a grown up" that for some of us here, it apparently really is that hard.
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I mean yeah, of course you're going to post stupid ass shit. It's What You Do. It's what you have done for as long as I've known you.
I obviously knew when I said "it's not that hard to be a grown up" that for some of us here, it apparently really is that hard.
Yeah only you can “properly” call Tempo out. The rest of us are just trying to be mean. Like your whole schtick here is of a condescending prick. It’s who you are for as long as you’ve been here. I would say for as long as I’ve known you, but I don’t know you and you don’t know me. Again, so fuck off. Your self-righteous attitude is old.
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Meanwhile, back in the real world, the rumors fly. It is duly noted Spark does not approve.
I don't think we need to worry about tainting a jury pool.
There are a few facts we do know with a strong likelihood based on The AD JW's comments, the released arrest warrant, and the police report.
I also think the public record pertaining to the background, rent conduct, and motives of the DA, and filing ADA are obviously relevant. District Judges will not even meet with the DA privately.
Others are free to disagree or think I am stupid.
It appears the 3 person panel has met. There is no timeline on making a decision.
Contrary to a published report, any decision is not final. The panel would meet again if relevant new information surfaces.
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Meanwhile, back in the real world, the rumors fly. It is duly noted Spark does not approve.
I don't think we need to worry about tainting a jury pool.
There are a few facts we do know with a strong likelihood based on The AD JW's comments, the released arrest warrant, and the police report.
I also think the public record pertaining to the background, rent conduct, and motives of the DA, and filing ADA are obviously relevant. District Judges will not even meet with the DA privately.
Others are free to disagree or think I am stupid.
It appears the 3 person panel has met. There is no timeline on making a decision.
Contrary to a published report, any decision is not final. The panel would meet again if relevant new information surfaces.
Yeah no shit. To sit here like Spark does and “scold” me is ridiculous. The whole point of this board is to discuss shit like that. Like you stated, we’re not gonna taint the jury pool or something lol. It must be Sparks way of somehow trying show superiority. He must have a complex…
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Yes, the reason I think it’s fucked up to publicly speculate with zero evidence whatsoever about an open felony rape case because you like the basketball team the accused plays on is because I have a complex.
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Yes, the reason I think it’s fucked up to publicly speculate with zero evidence whatsoever about an open felony rape case because you like the basketball team the accused plays on is because I have a complex.
So tell us, what’s that gonna effect discussing those things here?
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Why did someone start this thread?! We shouldn’t be discussing this at all! Take it down please…
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It’s certainly going to be a huge embarrassment for our fanbase if there is damning evidence we don’t know about and we’ve been going after the accuser, the DA, the police department non stop. But what else is new re: our fans being cringey and embarrassing and putting sports above peoples’ lives?
There’s no possible way for a “wait until there’s evidence to go on, quit speculating” take to end up looking bad but spreading these rumors and innuendos around in an extremely serious situation certainly has the potential to look very, very bad.
If this was happening at another school - say, Kansas or Michigan - our fans would be fucking losing their minds about it.
And it doesn’t take a genius obviously to see that justice isn’t really the aim here. The aim is to get a good basketball player back on the team we follow. It’s shameful.
If Shannon is truly innocent that will come out in time whether we rush here to post every evidence free rumor on Illini Twitter or not. It’s really not that difficult to wait until we have SOMETHING to go on.
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Why did someone start this thread?! We shouldn’t be discussing this at all! Take it down please…
You make Truth come off super intelligent and well considered.
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Yeah, I am sure she has "tried this with Kansas players", but was not successful in bringing charges but when Illinois was in town the DA was all over it. ::)
Nobody knows if that rumor is true or partially true.
Charles E. Branson was a long time DA there from 2005 - 2021.
I have to go. More later..
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You make Truth come off super intelligent and well considered.
Oh look, here’s Spark again being a douchebag…
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I hope Teamwork Orange/Chimpanzee comes by to weigh in on these rumors.
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Our fan base was very tough on Jamar Smith.
The response is different this time for valid reasons.
This looks like the ADA is trying to charge TSJ with Rape by deception.
Also, the forcible rape might have been an act of consensual mutual masturbation.
Kansas law does does have 2 specific sections that refer to rape by misrepresentation. Neither cover the alleged victim thinking the accused is a FB player when he is actually a BB player.
However, KS law does require that consent be clear and informed. If it is unclear and misinformed; it could perhaps be withdrawn after the fact? For example, when the accuser learns he was a basketball player, not a FB player? If there is no consent, then it becomes forcible rape?
The police report indicates both charges refer to the same brief incident; which took place in a bar or club. While the specific bar is not identified, it a popular hot spot.
The report indicates the misdemeanor sexual assault involved a personal weapon and alcohol, but the forcible rape did not.
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Nobody knows if that rumor is true or partially true.
Charles E. Branson was a long time DA there from 2005 - 2021.
I have to go. More later..
Suzanne Valdez was elected in 2020 and took over in 2021.
A big reason for the change was a controversial rape case involving a KU student. After the student decided not to testify, Branson initially charged her with filing a false rape report out of revenge and regret.
Brandon dropped the charges, but that was a central campaign issue in 2020. That, and apparently being tough on prosecuting sexual assault in general.
There is no evidence that the case was basketball related.
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I have zero issue with stuff like that being posted especially on this previously multi-failed forum.
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I have zero issue with stuff like that being posted especially on this previously multi-failed forum.
Yeah, fuck Spark. Actually I think I found him on Twitter… 😂
https://x.com/thrillinoise/status/1742712792317124880?s=46&t=nLWTarDKWNHMqYhTVD-LQQ
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🍿
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People lying and being self righteous on twitter? No way that never happens!
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I knew some hall monitor types when I was a kid. They grow up.
I like it better when we are ferreting out the rumor mills rather than engaging in pissing contexts..
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I knew some hall monitor types when I was a kid. They grow up.
I like it better when we are ferreting out the rumor mills rather than engaging in pissing contexts..
That’s signature worthy 😂
Spark Mandrill- official HQ2 hall monitor!
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I knew some hall monitor types when I was a kid. They grow up.
I like it better when we are ferreting out the rumor mills rather than engaging in pissing contexts..
This place would be nothing without the pissing contests though.
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I also think the public record pertaining to the background, rent conduct, and motives of the DA, and filing ADA are obviously relevant. District Judges will not even meet with the DA privately.
None of that matters. DAs shouldn't often be meeting with judges "privately" anyway, but even so it's ad hominem that only has merit because we like the defendant.
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This place would be nothing without the pissing contests though.
Excellent point.
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Excellent point.
No, it's not?
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None of that matters. DAs shouldn't often be meeting with judges "privately" anyway, but even so it's ad hominem that only has merit because we like the defendant.
It's not relevant that all their correspondence with her is written so she can't twist their words?
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current [mis]conduct of the DA, not rent conduct.
If TSJ had a long rap sheet, our own fan base would use that against him in the court of public opinion.
The DA's long history of personal conflicts and professional misconduct strike me as just as pertinent.
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It's not relevant that all their correspondence with her is written so she can't twist their words?
How would that be relevant to anything? Bias of a non-involved attorney? It has nothing to do with the allegations against TSJ. She could resign tomorrow and it would have zero effect on TSJ's case.
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No, it's not?
You wouldn’t bother coming here if not for the pissing contests
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How would that be relevant to anything? Bias of a non-involved attorney? It has nothing to do with the allegations against TSJ. She could resign tomorrow and it would have zero effect on TSJ's case.
The chief ADA who signed the warrant is a close associate and was recruited by the DA No way this charge was brought without her okay.
No one knows what effect her resignation might have.
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No, it's not?
Let's face it. The Fields threads are the only entertainment we get around here these days.
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Despite some posters claiming the moral high ground like it’s Iwo Jima, I don’t see any problem with posters on an Illini forum speculating on internet rumors regarding the Illini’s star player. It’s just not a big deal. Certainly not something to get all self-righteous about.
I actually kind of take a little exception that we apparently aren’t allowed to give TSJ—by all accounts a really good kid—some benefit of the doubt. It’s not just because we want him unsuspended and it’s kind of insulting that insinuation has been made. Pretty much everyone, here or on Twitter, has said if he’s indeed guilty that he should pay the price.
I also don’t think HQ posters should be lumped in with accounts on Twitter that literally exist to troll people.
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You wouldn’t bother coming here if not for the pissing contests
Yes, I would.
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Let's face it. The Fields threads are the only entertainment we get around here these days.
Everyone should be thanking Tempo? Man, you are feeding the beast with this one.
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I also don’t think HQ posters should be lumped in with accounts on Twitter that literally exist to troll people.
Chimpanzee says, "Hold my beer."
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Let's face it. The Fields threads are the only entertainment we get around here these days.
I wouldn’t say only, but it’s doing yeoman’s work!
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Yes, I would.
And talk about what?
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A significant portion of the regulars on this board exist to troll people in the same way, of course. PAMan hasn't made a non-trolling post in at least a year from what I've seen.
I think giving TSJ the benefit of the doubt is great - I have seen very few if any people say "lock him up and throw away the key", nor should people say that. Anyone who does is being just as gross and dumb as the people saying the stuff I'm talking about (which, notably, is actually prominent among Illini fans online, unlike the 'lock him up' take). That is very different than what so many Illini fans have been doing though.
I've seen a ton of Illini fans with absolutely zero way to know saying he's totally innocent and the alleged victim is greedy and the DA is corrupt and the LPD dropped the ball and any number of other evidence-less theories to declare him innocent, when the truth is that no one here knows any of that at all. It's clear if you gave a fuck about how this board represents the University it would be different from jump street, but I do kind of give a fuck how terrible our fans look doing that shit. They represent me, too, as a lifelong fan and alumnus. I never had the highest opinion of our fanbase - certainly not of most of the regulars here, including you - but some of the shit I've seen about this issue is fucking gross and it's extremely disheartening to watch people who are smart enough to know better continue to defend it, even if that's exactly what you expected of them.
None of us here are naive or stupid enough to think this is related to 'justice' or some criminal justice reform initiative. It's about fucking basketball and hopefully no one here is dishonest enough to pretend I'm wrong about that.
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I do find it funny that you could call people fucking retards and fags and be openly bigoted here all day and very few people would say shit about it, but if you do something that boils down to being a decent person and telling people to wait until they know the facts to spout off the whole board comes down on you like you kicked their dog.
The two things that have gotten me the most scorn on this board by far are: being upset when I thought someone I believed to be my friend apparently died, and saying we should wait until we have SOME evidence rather than unsourced Twitter rumor before we start acting like the alleged victim of this felony rape allegation is greedy and the DA is corrupt and everyone was just out to get a guy because he plays for Illini basketball.
Pretty telling, and not in a particularly good way.
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Despite some posters claiming the moral high ground like it’s Iwo Jima, I don’t see any problem with posters on an Illini forum speculating on internet rumors regarding the Illini’s star player. It’s just not a big deal. Certainly not something to get all self-righteous about.
I actually kind of take a little exception that we apparently aren’t allowed to give TSJ—by all accounts a really good kid—some benefit of the doubt. It’s not just because we want him unsuspended and it’s kind of insulting that insinuation has been made. Pretty much everyone, here or on Twitter, has said if he’s indeed guilty that he should pay the price.
I also don’t think HQ posters should be lumped in with accounts on Twitter that literally exist to troll people.
Thank you.
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A significant portion of the regulars on this board exist to troll people in the same way, of course. PAMan hasn't made a non-trolling post in at least a year from what I've seen.
I think giving TSJ the benefit of the doubt is great - I have seen very few if any people say "lock him up and throw away the key", nor should people say that. Anyone who does is being just as gross and dumb as the people saying the stuff I'm talking about (which, notably, is actually prominent among Illini fans online, unlike the 'lock him up' take). That is very different than what so many Illini fans have been doing though.
I've seen a ton of Illini fans with absolutely zero way to know saying he's totally innocent and the alleged victim is greedy and the DA is corrupt and the LPD dropped the ball and any number of other evidence-less theories to declare him innocent, when the truth is that no one here knows any of that at all. It's clear if you gave a fuck about how this board represents the University it would be different from jump street, but I do kind of give a fuck how terrible our fans look doing that shit. They represent me, too, as a lifelong fan and alumnus. I never had the highest opinion of our fanbase - certainly not of most of the regulars here, including you - but some of the shit I've seen about this issue is fucking gross and it's extremely disheartening to watch people who are smart enough to know better continue to defend it, even if that's exactly what you expected of them.
None of us here are naive or stupid enough to think this is related to 'justice' or some criminal justice reform initiative. It's about fucking basketball and hopefully no one here is dishonest enough to pretend I'm wrong about that.
Oh Jesus, here we go with some more self-righteous nonsense bullshit.
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I don't think anybody believes the charge was brought because TSJ plays ball for UI. There is a reasonable theory that the DA and ADA might be inclined to bring severe forcible rape charges based on flimsy evidence and a strange "rape by misrepresentation" theory.
There are broader issues too.
For most crimes, there is a presumption of innocence. However, in the case of rape, we are told women don't bring false charges, so we must believe the victim.
It's almost as of it's guilty until proven innocent, and even then, still guilty.
Iirc, a couple studies found only 2% of rape charges are false and an outlier has 8%?
Apparently, these are the proven false cases, cleared by DNA, solid alibis, etc. it does not mean the other 92 to 98% were proven true.
Many are saying zero tolerance means he can't possibly return until the case is settled.
We shall see. That is the purpose of the 3 person panel.
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The 3 person panel has met.
He isn't being reinstated with a pending felony rape charge.
If the charge is dropped or they manage to plea down to some misdemeanor simple battery charge, he probably will be. If he pleads to the lesser sexual battery charge, he's probably off the team either way. And those things are certainly possible. But we won't, and shouldn't, reinstate him with a pending felony rape charge.
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There is no timeline on a decision by the 3 person panel.
The panel exists solely to make reinstatement possible while criminal charges are still pending.
If reinstatement prior to resolution of charges were not possible; then the automatic suspension would be it, and no need for a review by a panel.
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If you think they are going to reinstate him with a felony rape charge pending you are not thinking very clearly at all.
They surely could've kicked him off the team permanently and it seems did not, but they weren't going to (and should not) reinstate him with a pending rape charge.
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Oh Jesus, here we go with some more self-righteous nonsense bullshit.
It is what he does best. We all have our purpose here.
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I cannot imagine a situation where they reinstate him with a pending felony rape charge unless by some miracle they have ironclad proof of his innocence before the court has it.
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It's possible the 3 person panel is just for show and has no actual power to make an independent decision based a preponderance of the available evidence..
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I do find it funny that you could call people fucking retards and fags and be openly bigoted here all day and very few people would say shit about it…
…Pretty telling, and not in a particularly good way.
A couple of things are working against you here:
First, you openly admit this is basically Frat Bro IlliniBoard, then complain that you’re self-righteous indignation wasn’t well-received.
Second, you’re backing your position with a bunch of “gross” anecdotal evidence gleaned from ________ that isn’t even congruent with the inherent grossness of the Cesspool itself.
I’ve said it before and I’ll reiterate. You’re obviously an intelligent, reasoned, articulate, sensitive and passionate person. I’ve long enjoyed your contributions to various Illini forums over the years. I know that when I am scrolling through the threads and I see your user name, I’m about to read something that had thought put into it. I’m happy that you circle back here once in a while to be a yang to our yin, so to speak.
At the same time, you should know by now that when you come here and perform the self-righteous victim bit, you’re going to get the Tempo treatment.
It’s just my personal opinion that you’ve always been the guy that is soooo damned worried about being right all the time that you never stop to consider that everyone else is just having fun in between work calls and family obligations.
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I actually see both sides of this argument. No strong stand on either.
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you’re going to get the Tempo treatment.
Nice for someone to finally acknowledge this is a thing.
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I cannot imagine a situation where they reinstate him with a pending felony rape charge unless by some miracle they have ironclad proof of his innocence before the court has it.
Not even then.
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We all do our bickering, but that’s the entire fun of the place. There’s not a person here I wouldn’t get in the trenches with now that Dom has been banned.
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You banned Dom? I find that dude entertaining.
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You banned Dom? I find that dude entertaining.
We all knew that. Not really sure what to think about that but not likely a good thing.
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We all knew that. Not really sure what to think about that but not likely a good thing.
To quote another prominent poster here “it’s just a message board.”
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We all knew that. Not really sure what to think about that but not likely a good thing.
I think the line is, "Pretty telling, and not in a particularly good way."
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To quote another prominent poster here “it’s just a message board.”
Yes, but it is not a sanctuary for racists or pedophiles.
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00:07:08
They [legal processes] take a long time. They can take months. In some cases, they can take a year in order for them to reach their full conclusion. The challenge that we have that athletic programs like ours face is what do you do in that interim period? What do you do during that period between when you receive substantiated allegations until a process is concluded through the court of law or through the Office of Student Conflict resolution? And that's really where our policy is designed to live, is in that intermediate period of time. The way we've chosen to approach it through our policy is that upon receiving sufficient triggering information, we will suspend immediately when we're talking about matters of, of serious misconduct, there are no questions asked.
00:07:55
Once that happens, we then have a student, or I'm sorry, a university conduct panel that is convened and will meet within 48 hours of the initial suspension. That panel exists independent of the athletic department, and it will determine using the information that we have available at that given time, whether that suspension should remain upheld or should be amended or in some cases lifted. All together.
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I realize some say due the serious nature of the charges, UI should and will let the legal process play out.
Whitman addressed that.
In the end, it should be about the weight of the evidence; not the seriousness of the charge.
This isn't about the reputation of the University or the success of the basketball team.
Terrence Shannon worked hard to get where he was a little over a week ago. He doesn't have months or a year for the legal process to play out. His time to earn AA honors and improve his draft stock is now.
That is the purpose of the special 3 person panel. Their job is to make a decision based on a preponderance of the available evidence, not the seriousness of the charges.
My coffee grounds tell me they are talking with TSJ's people and a decision is unlikely before the first hearing, barring a surprise.
There are, no doubt, BTS negotiations going on.
The problem is even pleading to the lesser charge would mean he is admitting to a misdemeanor sex crime.
I am not sure what the ADA could reduce it to that would allow him to return.
Loitering in a bar on a Sunday afternoon?
Impersonating a football player?
If nothing is resolved in the next 2 weeks, I suspect TSJ's lawyer might start leaking more details to put pressure on some people.
Lots of what ifs ...
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I am not sure what the ADA could reduce it to that would allow him to return.
Loitering in a bar on a Sunday afternoon?
Impersonating a football player?
If nothing is resolved in the next 2 weeks, I suspect TSJ's lawyer might start leaking more details to put pressure on some people.
Lots of what ifs ...
I mean in theory they could get the charges dropped all together if their case isn't solid
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I mean in theory they could get the charges dropped all together if their case isn't solid
True. I am thinking at this point the ADA would want to save face.
From what I gather, the theory on the forcible rape charge might be extremely shakey.
That is likely the reason for the drastically lesser alternative charge. It looks like it just isn't lesser enough for TSJ to plead out on.
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What are BTS negotiations??
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Behind the scenes, which are all negotiations in this situation.
I think it's illini orange-colored glasses to think a DA in another state would just drop charges.
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Shannon's attorneys request a temporary restraining order.
https://www.news-gazette.com/news/shannon-asks-court-to-grant-order-allowing-his-return-to-team/article_dac555bf-424a-5a65-a8e8-4eecee519aa4.html
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https://twitter.com/JWerner247/status/1744489691464770008
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Yeah TSJ innocent as shit. Check out point F in the statement. How in the HELL did they get a warrant based off this shit?!
https://x.com/kedprince4/status/1744518594170323351?s=46&t=nLWTarDKWNHMqYhTVD-LQQ
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Yeah TSJ innocent as shit. Check out point F in the statement. How in the HELL did they get a warrant based off this shit?!
https://x.com/kedprince4/status/1744518594170323351?s=46&t=nLWTarDKWNHMqYhTVD-LQQ
#freeterrance
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I should’ve asked Spark if it was ok to post that 😂
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Yeah TSJ innocent as shit. Check out point F in the statement. How in the HELL did they get a warrant based off this shit?!
https://x.com/kedprince4/status/1744518594170323351?s=46&t=nLWTarDKWNHMqYhTVD-LQQ
"Kansas state basketball roster" 🤣
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Here is the sworn affidavit…
https://x.com/wcia3andy/status/1744521076476981307?s=46&t=nLWTarDKWNHMqYhTVD-LQQ
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The alleged incident was in a crowded bar with no witnesses.
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Yeah TSJ innocent as shit. Check out point F in the statement. How in the HELL did they get a warrant based off this shit?!
https://x.com/kedprince4/status/1744518594170323351?s=46&t=nLWTarDKWNHMqYhTVD-LQQ
Well, a) this is his side of the story and b) isn't the 18th the preliminary hearing to determine if there is sufficient probable cause to proceed with a trial?
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Sounds like the dude is innocent and didn't rape anyone and the girl he was hanging with was looking for an athlete to harm and profit from.
Drop the suspension and get TSJ back on the court this is ridiculous.
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I won't try to Truth my way out of it if I'm wrong, but I doubt Shannon plays for us again
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Here is the sworn affidavit…
https://x.com/wcia3andy/status/1744521076476981307?s=46&t=nLWTarDKWNHMqYhTVD-LQQ
Wonder what the lady on his arm has to say.
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I won't try to Truth my way out of it if I'm wrong, but I doubt Shannon plays for us again
I’m in the same boat.
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The leak from his lawyers was obviously timed pretty intentionally.
It's he-said/she-said.
I won't presume to know if he is innocent or guilty or even if he will be ruled innocent or guilty, but I doubt he plays basketball for us again.
I also think the lawsuit was kind of ... cringey. Maybe I'm wrong but what it seems to be arguing is that the University can't discipline a student-athlete unless he's been convicted of a crime, which I disagree with - and at one point it even argued that they forfeited their right to discipline him when they didn't do it as soon as they knew there was a criminal investigation. It seems a bit like desperation to my untrained eye.
Again, happy to eat shit if I'm wrong here.
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It immediately felt more like getting out in front of this in the public eye in protection of his eventual pro career than it does a plea to actually play ball for Illinois.
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Wonder what the lady on his arm has to say.
I wonder what Hunter has to say.
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I am not going to speculate about the motives of TJ's lawyers. I'll wait until all the facts are available. /s
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It’s hard to believe they’d go this route if they thought the DA really had any shit on him. There’s be nothing to gain and a lot to lose if there wasn’t tremendous confidence in his innocence.
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The university will pay TSJ, TSJ will pay the victim.
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I kinda doubt 6’6” handsome all American stud basketball player with NIL money is hand raping skanks in campus bars but will defer to spark and beach bum
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I agree with you Custard. Prob listening to some R Kelly bump n grind and some wandering hands on middle of dance floor. Don't recall a previous case where that was classified as rape.
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TSJ is not the only suspect here...this entire charge is suspect as F*#k to say the least.
Way to much gray area in the report to even file the charge imo, regardless of how jacked the law is written there in regards to rape.
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It immediately felt more like getting out in front of this in the public eye in protection of his eventual pro career than it does a plea to actually play ball for Illinois.
Not sure how they have gamed all this out but possibly this is preemptive effort for a civil suit vs Illinois later if this prevents him from being in draft and having to go FA route down the road
But not sure how NBA treats this or how teams view this.
They let the guys do all kinds of shit and play.
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Is there precedent for an NCAA student athlete playing basketball for the university he has an active lawsuit against?
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Is there precedent for an NCAA student athlete playing basketball for the university he has an active lawsuit against?
Isn't his lawyer a big wig IFund and ICON donor?
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Isn't his lawyer a big wig IFund and ICON donor?
Yes but that doesn’t answer the question
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Yes but that doesn’t answer the question
True. But maybe there is a possibility that the DIA isn't that broken up about the lawsuit?
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True. But maybe there is a possibility that the DIA isn't that broken up about the lawsuit?
I’m sure they’re not. Whitman probably encouraged it.
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True. But maybe there is a possibility that the DIA isn't that broken up about the lawsuit?
I think they’re in cahoots. Still doesn’t answer the question.
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I think they’re in cahoots. Still doesn’t answer the question.
But would lessen any possible antagonism...
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I’m not talking about antagonism I’m just asking if it’s ever been done before
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Anyone who had to play four years under Weber or Groce should’ve sued the university
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Or one year under Beckman
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I kind of like that they did this if his version is anywhere near the truth, but I'd be really surprised if a court granted this. I'm not sure local state courts can order universities to keep a kid on a sports team, and the Kansas court could just alter his bail conditions and it'd be moot fairly quickly.
Again I'd caution people that things like an internet search by the victim read great to people who believe one set of facts and poorlly when framed by someone making a different base assumption.
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As a silver lining, if this ordeal radicalizes the Illini basketball fanbase as to certain wildly unjust aspects of the criminal justice system, it'll at least have served a useful purpose.
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Really hard to evaluate anything from where we sit.
Will just have to see how it plays out.
Not making any assumptions about a DA being corrupt or unethical and manufacturing charges in a case they full well knew would get national scrutiny.
Nor am I making assumptions about a predatory minded victim.
And, of course, not making assumptions about TSj guilt as defined by the law.
I do agree, he likely is done at Illinois.
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https://www.news-gazette.com/news/shannon-if-sidelined-now-to-wait-until-the-criminal-case-is-over-my-life-as/article_97892e95-a6bf-58d8-9fc9-5714240298d0.html
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That's a great letter and all. But it doesn't say what happened just that he's innocent.
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And he shouldn't say what happened.
It's an open criminal case.
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" The harm that I will suffer from an immediate suspension can never be undone, and I will never have this opportunity to further my collegiate career or fulfill my lifelong dream to play in the NBA."
Very much not true and to the extent he loses money by not being a lottery pick, his grievance should be with the NBA's collusive collective bargaining agreement and to a lesser extent the victim and the State of Kansas. I fully encourage him to fight the system, but UIUC is his friend, not his enemy, and its hands are tied.
I have concerns about the advice he's getting if they advised him this was a good idea. He needs to keep his ass out of jail before he talks about the lottery.
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" The harm that I will suffer from an immediate suspension can never be undone, and I will never have this opportunity to further my collegiate career or fulfill my lifelong dream to play in the NBA."
Very much not true and to the extent he loses money by not being a lottery pick, his grievance should be with the NBA's collusive collective bargaining agreement and to a lesser extent the victim and the State of Kansas. I fully encourage him to fight the system, but UIUC is his friend, not his enemy, and its hands are tied.
I have concerns about the advice he's getting if they advised him this was a good idea. He needs to keep his ass out of jail before he talks about the lottery.
UIUC could let him play if it wanted to. Understandable why the panel decided the way it did. Have not seen the complaint but complaints about disciplinary actions by universities and colleges are hard to win. Lawyer undoubtedly knows this. Seen claims his lawyer is very close with the DIA and represented UIUC coaches in the past.
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Do normal people stop working at their jobs when under a criminal investigation? Usually not. I could see this going to the supreme court to determine whether or not college athletes are employees.
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If I was charged with felony rape I'm pretty confident I'd be fired.
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I’d imagine they’re working to some degree with Josh Whitman. I doubt they’d be beating the drum this hard if they thought there was any way being jailed was a real possibility.
As to being let go for being charged with rape, I suppose it depends on what industry and role. And past character and behavior would be taken into account in many of them. Seems like a lawsuit waiting to happen if someone lost a good job over a charge if they ended up being innocent unless the company had a specific employment policy that accounts for it. I think in sensitive situations like that people would be put on leave until things shook out. Especially employees that are hard to replace or specialized etc.
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Do normal people stop working at their jobs when under a criminal investigation? Usually not.
Not sure how they do things in Nevada....
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What is the reference to another year of eligibility????
"I believe that I might have one more year of NCAA eligibility, but given what I think is my current draft position (if I'm permitted to play again), now is the time to graduate, go pro, and make my family and university proud in the NBA".
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Now goes to federal court. Judge Coleen Lawless. Decision friday on the tro?
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Is he thinking he'll ask for a legal red-shirt if he can't play and he's eventually cleared?
The medical redshirt requires onset before midpoint of season (check) and can't play in more than 30% of games (?)
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Do normal people stop working at their jobs when under a criminal investigation? Usually not.
I'd guess the rate of getting terminated when you have a filed felony sexual assault charge is over 50% assuming the employer knows.
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Just catching up some on Loyalty. Holy shit these idiots wringing their hands over what opposing student sections might say if TSJ comes back is funny sad.
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Seems that if it's gonna settle out, maximum leverage for the accuser is about right now.
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Seems that if it's gonna settle out, maximum leverage for the accuser is about right now.
Not sure I am following you but probably me.
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I didn’t get it either
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Just catching up some on Loyalty. Holy shit these idiots wringing their hands over what opposing student sections might say if TSJ comes back is funny sad.
He isn't coming back. They are idiots.
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He isn't coming back. They are idiots.
He'll be in federal court in three days and if all the stuff his lawyers put out is even remotely true then he'll be playing by next weekend.
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As an Illinois fan I’ll believe it when I see it.
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He'll be in federal court in three days and if all the stuff his lawyers put out is even remotely true then he'll be playing by next weekend.
You should put money on the possibility now if you're that confident.
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He'll be in federal court in three days and if all the stuff his lawyers put out is even remotely true then he'll be playing by next weekend.
Did you read the affidavit? All the same information is included in there.
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I guess anything is possible, but not sure a court is going to intervene for him in a matter that is not based on a protected class issue.
He theoretically is getting due process in the judicial system. There is no legal protected right to play an extracurricular sport for a college.
BYU suspended a kid for allegedly fucking his gf. UI has a pretty standard policy here I think when it comes to an athlete with a felony charge.
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Not sure I am following you but probably me.
It's probably me. I'm assuming TSJ is playing his hand now because he has he most to gain at this juncture. Therefore, if the accuser is eyeing a $ settlement, she's in position to get the max out of one. I.E. the brighter his future looks, the more he is willing to pay to preserve it. Just a thought that crossed my mind.
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Didn't read the whole TRO brief, but thought the argument that UIUC did not apply Title IX was at least an interesting argument to make.
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Seems that if it's gonna settle out, maximum leverage for the accuser is about right now.
There may be a $$ grab settling out, but the DA still is the only ones that can dismiss or drop suit regardless...at least that is my legal acumen...yes I know limited is overstatement to say the least.
My ? is that in her comments, she "stated paraphrased here" that I was shocked, had a phone in one hand and a drink in the other. I didn't know what to do, I was shocked....a shocked person, one who is a female especially might throw the drink on a person if they were inappropriately touched/molested/raped/etc...or is that just too obvious?
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There isn’t “one way” people react when they’re in shock.
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There may be a $$ grab settling out, but the DA still is the only ones that can dismiss or drop suit regardless...at least that is my legal acumen...yes I know limited is overstatement to say the least.
My ? is that in her comments, she "stated paraphrased here" that I was shocked, had a phone in one hand and a drink in the other. I didn't know what to do, I was shocked....a shocked person, one who is a female especially might throw the drink on a person if they were inappropriately touched/molested/raped/etc...or is that just too obvious?
How about you stop hypothesizing about the alleged victim and her intent.
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How about you stop hypothesizing about the alleged victim and her intent.
I stated what I thought she MAY have done...not what her intent was? What she MAY have done is called a reaction, not an intent. If she had intent, then she MAY have intended to throw the drink in shock, and then the intent MAY have been to douse the alleged person causing the reaction.
I see ya down there tryin to get recognized, keep tryin to get in the game....meanwhile I will live rent free.
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There isn’t “one way” people react when they’re in shock.
This is very true...I am shocked LKDog continues to be an idiot, I am shocked DumbF*&knic came back....I am not shocked that either do not realize they are ridiculous in nature on here.
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Lkdog is right. Speculating on the basis of “if this happened why didn’t she throw a drink in his face?” is ignorant.
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This is very true...I am shocked LKDog continues to be an idiot, I am shocked DumbF*&knic came back....I am not shocked that either do not realize they are ridiculous in nature on here.
You might want to sit a few plays out. Like most people here I just usually ignore you.
You might wish to re-read your comments about the alleged victim, however.
They were offensive - even for here.
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You might want to sit a few plays out. Like most people here I just usually ignore you.
You might wish to re-read your comments about the alleged victim, however.
They were offensive - even for here.
Usually ignore me???? You comment on my posts more than anyone else, it ain't even close either. Stay on the bench, if I am offensive to you, than I guess that I am just returning the favor, although with me, you are simply an annoyance at best. I see ya down there on the bench though....
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Lkdog is right. Speculating on the basis of “if this happened why didn’t she throw a drink in his face?” is ignorant.
Tea for two? It is a forum to discuss things, us three aren't the only ones on here discussing and playing hypothetical's on here either.
I was speculating on what her or another in the same situation as presented in legal documents in this case may or may not have done when shocked in a situation holding a drink? It is a fair inquiry imo, thanks for chiming in.
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There is no legal protected right to play an extracurricular sport for a college.
The state of Illinois might possibly disagree. This is from loyalty. I was unable to independently verify the content.
"TSJ's lawyers also point to the case of State of Ohio v. NCAA in which the State of Illinois (along with several other states) sought a TRO to enjoin the NCAA from enforcing the "Transfer Eligibility Rule," and argued that athletes subject to the "Transfer Eligibility Rule" will suffer immediate and irreparable harm by continuing to be barred from competing and risking ineligibility. This supports the argument for a TRO because TSJ will likewise suffer immediate and irreparable harm if not allowed to play."
Me: The whole NIL thing, immediate eligibility for xfers, and intra conference xfers are all based on the notion that student athletes do have some basic rights. This is a huge change from the past.
Same poster also claims they pointed to "the recent case of Pop Isaacs at Texas Tech. Isaacs was allowed to practice and play while Texas Tech's Title IX office investigated the allegations of sexual misconduct ..."
If true, that supports their title 9 argument.
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A number of posters in various forums commented on the details of the affidavit.
Specifically some commented on the part about the alleged victim being unable to respond because she was holding a drink in one hand and a phone in the other hand. She also said she froze due to shock and the crowded room made it difficult to move.
The accuser also said her friend was standing next to her, but that person did not see anything. She also reportedly did not know which hand the alleged attacker used. The friend said she was busy talking to others in the room.
The alleged victim also said her alleged attacker had a woman on his arm, but that woman, as far as anyone knows, did not react and has not been identified or interviewed.
While not specifically stated, the accusers description of events gives the impression that everyone was standing.
Assuming that is correct, several questioned whether it is physically possible for a 6-6 man to do what was alleged to a woman of average height, without creating an attention attracting scene. It is possible, the alleged victim is exceptionally tall. Or perhaps he was seated?
Others even questioned the accusers claim that the drink she was holding was her first of the night and she only had a couple sips and was therefore sober. The two reportedly had been to at least one other bar.
Meanwhile, the GA that chaperoned Shannon and Harmon was with him the entire night and witnessed nothing like the alleged victim described.
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Wait a minute. They had a grad assistant chaperoning them, and one of them still got charged with rape?
Jesus Christ.
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Our fans are fucking embarrassing man
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Tea for two? It is a forum to discuss things, us three aren't the only ones on here discussing and playing hypothetical's on here either.
I was speculating on what her or another in the same situation as presented in legal documents in this case may or may not have done when shocked in a situation holding a drink? It is a fair inquiry imo, thanks for chiming in.
It was a silly question of the sort meant only to undercut someone’s credibility via ignorance. That she didn’t throw a drink in his face is not at all relevant.
Obviously you’re welcome to post whatever stupid shit you’d like, but I assume others are also welcome to point out how stupid and offensive it is when you do.
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The state of Illinois might possibly disagree. This is from loyalty. I was unable to independently verify the content.
"TSJ's lawyers also point to the case of State of Ohio v. NCAA in which the State of Illinois (along with several other states) sought a TRO to enjoin the NCAA from enforcing the "Transfer Eligibility Rule," and argued that athletes subject to the "Transfer Eligibility Rule" will suffer immediate and irreparable harm by continuing to be barred from competing and risking ineligibility. This supports the argument for a TRO because TSJ will likewise suffer immediate and irreparable harm if not allowed to play."
Me: The whole NIL thing, immediate eligibility for xfers, and intra conference xfers are all based on the notion that student athletes do have some basic rights. This is a huge change from the past.
Same poster also claims they pointed to "the recent case of Pop Isaacs at Texas Tech. Isaacs was allowed to practice and play while Texas Tech's Title IX office investigated the allegations of sexual misconduct ..."
If true, that supports their title 9 argument.
Did the Loyalty guys mention which crime Pop Isaacs was charged with?
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Did the Loyalty guys mention which crime Pop Isaacs was charged with?
Are you saying an athlete who is being sued for sexual misconduct with a drunk 16 year old has title IX rights, but if he had been charged; he would not? I don't see the logic.
Either a student athlete has a tight to a title 9 investigation or not.
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Wait a minute. They had a grad assistant chaperoning them, and one of them still got charged with rape?
Jesus Christ.
DyShawn Hobson drove them to the game and back. He was with them the entire time.
Also in constant contact with BU.
Several KU basketball players were at the bar with them.
Hobson and Harmon were never interviewed by LPD. Unnamed KU players reportedly interviewed Jan 3.
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Are you saying an athlete who is being sued for sexual misconduct with a drunk 16 year old has title IX rights, but if he had been charged; he would not? I don't see the logic.
I'm saying that how a different school treated a player who was not charged with any crime is not particularly relevant to the lawsuit claiming that our policy of suspending kids indefinitely when they have a pending felony charge is unfair and does not afford 'due process', whatever that really means in terms of internal discipline.
Since you and the rest of Loyalty are suddenly Title IX experts, you obviously know that Title IX only applies when an incident occurs at an event the school sponsored or had control over, and between people the school has authority over or who are participating in an event the school sponsored or had control over - you have to stretch a mile and a half to even claim that in this case, while Pop Isaacs' situation happened on a team trip. If you'd like to learn more about the Title IX guidelines you can read the DOE's summary of it here: https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/titleix-summary.pdf. Take particular note of Issue #3, which states:
"The Title IX statute applies to persons in the United States with respect to education programs or activities that
receive Federal financial assistance. Under the Final Rule, schools must respond when sexual harassment occurs
in the school’s education program or activity, against a person in the United States.
- The Title IX statute and existing regulations contain broad definitions of a school’s “program or activity” and
the Department will continue to look to these definitions for the scope of a school’s education program or activity.
Education program or activity includes locations, events, or circumstances over which the school exercised
substantial control over both the respondent and the context in which the sexual harassment occurred, and also
includes any building owned or controlled by a student organization that is officially recognized by a
postsecondary institution (such as a fraternity or sorority house).
- Title IX applies to all of a school’s education programs or activities, whether such programs or activities occur
on-campus or off-campus. A school may address sexual harassment affecting its students or employees that falls
outside Title IX’s jurisdiction in any manner the school chooses, including providing supportive measures or
pursuing discipline."
(emphasis mine)
and Issue #6, which states (among other definitions):
"- At the time of filing a formal complaint, a complainant must be participating in or attempting to participate in
the education program or activity of the school with which the formal complaint is filed"
Title IX is not meant to have jurisdiction over things that happen in a non-school-sponsored event in a public place.
It will be incredibly surprising to most people who don't read Illinois Loyalty very often if the court declares that UIUC is not allowed to discipline a student athlete without a criminal conviction - which is the true thrust of the case.
For all the sudden criminal justice reform calls from Illini fans, I don't remember any of that in the past when the player in question was a rival (Pierre Pierce), or a bench guy (Darius Paul). I DO, however, remember how sure many Illini fans were last year that Alabama's decision to play a kid who was never charged with any crime was wrong - in that case, despite no charges being filed, I didn't see anyone arguing that suspending Miller would've denied him due process. I haven't seen anyone claim that about Michigan's weird 'road game suspension', or frankly any other team/athletic department discipline either.
Terrence Shannon may very well be completely innocent; I sure hope he is. I like what little I've seen of the kid personally, and hope he has a long successful career playing basketball (assuming he did not do this). But there is a reason the case hasn't been dropped, and that he is trying to force the University to play him on a legal technicality - it's because he recognizes that despite the LAST set of rumors pushed by the Loyalty gang (i.e., what the DIA wants leaked) there is no available evidence thusfar this is some open-and-shut case where he is being defamed, falsely accused, etc. At best, it is he said/she said barring some incriminating or exculpatory evidence none of us have seen yet.
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So the lawsuit vs criminal charge is moot.
On the other issue; Harmon and TJS were chaperoned by GA Hobson. He drove them there and back. He was with them at the bar. He was in constant contact with BU. Perhaps you missed that part.
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So it was a school sponsored event because another student went with them? I didn't miss that part, but that part also isn't even remotely relevant (except potentially as a witness in the criminal case).
Whitman has been extremely clear since the beginning (probably for this very reason) that Shannon went to Lawrence of his own accord, and not as part of a school-sponsored trip. This did not happen at a school sponsored event, nor did it happen between two people that the school had authority over at such an event. It's a ridiculous argument to make. You're smart enough to know that, I think, but apparently maybe shameless enough to pretend otherwise so a good player can play for your favorite basketball team.
You and so many others have so thoroughly shown your ass about this, it's hilarious. It's honestly not that hard to just fucking wait until the information is available and stop trying to run with every rumor BReal posts on Loyalty. It makes you look like a fucking moron.
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And yes, whether there is a charge IS relevant - because that is the exact thing at issue in the lawsuit. Does UI's policy of suspending a kid indefinitely with a pending felony charge for something that happened outside of school-sponsored events violate some right he has to due process? Pop Isaacs being sued for something that happened on a basketball team trip is not analogous whatsoever.
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So it was a school sponsored event because another student went with them? ...
Whitman has been extremely clear since the beginning (probably for this very reason) that Shannon went to Lawrence of his own accord, and not as part of a school-sponsored trip. ... It's a ridiculous argument to make.
Your argument is with 4 attorneys. Not me. It is simple argument.
A Graduate Assistant with the basketball team drove them to a school football game and back home.
That GA was with them the entire time. The GA was in constant contact with the Head Basketball Coach.
That is the case the lawyers are making.
Your insults don't change any of that.
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Pop Isaacs being sued for something that happened on a basketball team trip is not analogous whatsoever.
The lawyers are arguing their attendance at the football game and ancillary activities amounted to a school sponsored event since it was supervised by the Head Basketball Coach and a Graduate Assistant Basketball Coach.
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When did sparky become such a sanctimonious prick ?!?!
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"49. The alleged conduct took place in an “education program or activity” of Illinois’ because Illinois exercised substantial control over both TJ and the alleged context in which the alleged incident occurred. See, 34 CFR §106.44(a) (“education program or activity” covered by Title IX includes “circumstances over which the recipient exercised substantial control over both the respondent and the context in which the sexual harassment occurs.)” See also, Roe v.
Gustine Unified School Dist., 678 F. Supp.2d 1008, 1025 (E.D. Ca. 2009) (Title IX applied to sexual harassment claim even though the alleged misconduct occurred outside school grounds at
a football camp, because the camp was under the supervision of teachers and coaches including
at the time of the alleged incidents, and the school transported the students, amongst other factors)."
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https://www.wandtv.com/news/u-of-i-issues-response-to-terrence-shannon-jr-s-motion-for-temporary-restraining-order/article_ef9b13ae-b170-11ee-b514-1f26c6141b0d.html
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Interesting. I guess he won't be playing this next week after all
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https://www.wandtv.com/news/u-of-i-issues-response-to-terrence-shannon-jr-s-motion-for-temporary-restraining-order/article_ef9b13ae-b170-11ee-b514-1f26c6141b0d.html
not surprising really
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This is how the university has to respond. If it doesn't contest this on basic principles, it invites a civil rights suit every time a student-athlete is suspended.
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This is how the university has to respond. If it doesn't contest this on basic principles, it invites a civil rights suit every time a student-athlete is suspended.
Agree. He is not being suspended for no cause for a legally protected status such as race, LGBTQ, religion, etc.
They have a code of conduct for athletes on teams and have to apply it as written.
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No decision today.
https://twitter.com/GoodmanHoops/status/1745913747917447308
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There's nothing in the university's response that wouldn't be expected.
I don't fault TSJ for requesting a TRO nor is there anything in the response that is not expected.
It's a legal matter that will get sorted out. Unfortunately, TSJ has most likely seen the last of his time on the floor in an Illini uniform and the issues won't be resolved until after the draft.
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To rehash the title 9 issue, spark eloquently argued against its application.
in this case, TSJ is, of course, the accused offender, not the alleged victim.
Now why would his lawyers bring it up? Because:
"Had Illinois applied Title IX, it could not suspend TJ from the Team unless and until Illinois’ Title IX coordinator “undertakes an individualized safety and risk analysis, [and] determines that an immediate threat to the physical health or safety of any student or other individual arising from the allegations of sexual harassment justifies removal, and provides the respondent with notice and an opportunity to challenge the decision immediately following the removal” (“Title IX Risk Analysis”). 34 CFR §106.44(c)"
Next, upon what basis would Title IX even apply? It was off campus, and the alleged victim is not a UI student.
TSJ's lawyers are using the substantial control test and cited precedents.
"The alleged conduct took place in an “education program or activity” of Illinois’ because Illinois exercised substantial control over both TJ and the alleged context in which the alleged incident occurred. See, 34 CFR §106.44(a)"
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Ked talked with Loren et al on that saturday morning dws radio show.
It was Ked, but he had 3 interesting comments.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/5rB3t9AdQnUXeRRbhj6egJ
He said TJ doesn't know who the accuser is. No idea at all. Denies having any sort of interaction with any such woman.
TJ voluntarily gave a DNA swab before charges were filed. The way Ked worded it implied there may have been trace DNA from the accuser, but not TJ's. He said something like "negative for TJ's DNA." If there's no DNA, the charges must go away?
He said TJ has a number of witnesses on his behalf who were there that still have not been interviewed.
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Oh boy, Spark’s righteous ass is gonna flip out on here! How dare you!
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"Kansas Senate Bill 180 goes into effect on July 1, 2023.....
....Let me be clear, my office’s prosecutorial resources will not be used to prosecute anyone under SB 180."
https://www.douglascountyks.org/district-attorney/news/2023/06/09/district-attorney-suzanne-valdezs-statement-kansas-senate-bill
This is always encouraging.
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Ked talked with Loren et al on that saturday morning dws radio show.
It was Ked, but he had 3 interesting comments.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/5rB3t9AdQnUXeRRbhj6egJ
He said TJ doesn't know who the accuser is. No idea at all. Denies having any sort of interaction with any such woman.
TJ voluntarily gave a DNA swab before charges were filed. The way Ked worded it implied there may have been trace DNA from the accuser, but not TJ's. He said something like "negative for TJ's DNA." If there's no DNA, the charges must go away?
He said TJ has a number of witnesses on his behalf who were there that still have not been interviewed.
Glad that is all cleared up.
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Glad that is all cleared up.
Very funny. Nothing is cleared up. It was Kedrick Prince talking with Loren Tate.
Still, the dna part was especially interesting. If what Ked implied is true, men have been cleared based on that kind of evidence.
oh, and Tate is actually sharp for 92.
He kept harping on the there's no right to play basketball concept.
My take: If the courts were still ruling that way, the transfer eligibility rules would be upheld.
I can't really wrap my head around it. The main argument relating to title
9 blew right past Tate. The issue is whether it even applies. That is a gray area
The rest is above my pay grade.
Maybe there is no right to play ball, but TJ has earned the privilege to play at a high level. If the rest of this season and all that implies is taken away, it can't be restored. If he plays, the worst that happens to UIUC is some transient embarrassment.
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Very funny. Nothing is cleared up. It was Kedrick Prince talking with Loren Tate.
Still, the dna part was especially interesting. If what Ked implied is true, men have been cleared based on that kind of evidence.
Soooooo basically here is what Ked is claiming:
He was in a bar.
She was in a bar.
Hundreds of people were in the bar.
She claimed the next day to police he sexually assaulted her.
(She had allegedly told her friend that night).
Nothing on camera showing them together.
No witnesses of the allegations.
No evidence of the allegations.
He never actually saw her or talked to her in his life per TSj.
After three months of review of absolutely zero evidence, or anyone that indicated he did what was claimed; and based solely on her word after she later allegedly looked at some pictures of athletes online - the DA says let's charge him with criminal felony sexual assault.
I wish the best for TSj. I hope this all turns out OK for him in the long run.
I don't think anyone knows at this point exactly the specifics of why he was charged and whether those charges will hold up in court.
Whatever they have has to ultimately meet the legal standards of the state law for a conviction. They apparently think it does for whatever reasons.
According to some armchair analysts her accusation alone can be viable. I have no idea what that entails to alone be seen as credible.
As for the separate lawsuit, that is an entirely different process.
On both matters I really don't know what might happen. It is all really hard to believe it is happening and I am sure TSj is devastated.
I have been impressed as to how the staff and team has responded and today aside, they have stepped up beyond anyone's expecatations.
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Ked talked with Loren et al on that saturday morning dws radio show.
It was Ked, but he had 3 interesting comments.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/5rB3t9AdQnUXeRRbhj6egJ
He said TJ doesn't know who the accuser is. No idea at all. Denies having any sort of interaction with any such woman.
TJ voluntarily gave a DNA swab before charges were filed. The way Ked worded it implied there may have been trace DNA from the accuser, but not TJ's. He said something like "negative for TJ's DNA." If there's no DNA, the charges must go away?
He said TJ has a number of witnesses on his behalf who were there that still have not been interviewed.
If it's not Shannon's DNA, then why the hell are we even at this point?
The more info that's released, the more it doesn't add up for me.
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According to the filing in Springfield, TJ first learned the identity of the accuser from the UI, but he apparently still doesn't know who that is.
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If it's not Shannon's DNA, then why the hell are we even at this point?
The more info that's released, the more it doesn't add up for me.
Is there going to be DNA left from finger in such a scenario?
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Is there going to be DNA left from finger in such a scenario?
My thoughts exactly…
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According to the filing in Springfield, TJ first learned the identity of the accuser from the UI, but he apparently still doesn't know who that is.
You would think they would have exchanged business cards.
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According to the filing in Springfield, TJ first learned the identity of the accuser from the UI, but he apparently still doesn't know who that is.
I don’t believe he doesn’t know who it is though…
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Is there going to be DNA left from finger in such a scenario?
My thoughts exactly…
There may have been DNA from the accuser.
I wonder how that might happen.
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My thoughts exactly…
Affiant asked how the male moved her underwear and she clarified the male put his hands inside her underwear from the leg opening, "flicked it" out of the way, and put his finger inside her vagina. stated she did not have any
marks, or injuries from the encounter and her underwear were not torn.
... confirmed she went to Lawrence Memorial Hospital and participated in a sexual assault examination where her underwear was collected.
It seems possible there would be epithelial DNA left on the underwear..
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Seems congruent with his “shot out of a cannon” speed in transition and violent penetration, leaving others stunned and unsure how to act.
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This just sounds so flimsy. Something isn’t adding up.
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This just sounds so flimsy. Something isn’t adding up.
I remain left to wonder how one "flicks" underwear aside with a finger, all while standing up in a bar, with a lady in the other arm.
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I remain left to wonder how one "flicks" underwear aside with a finger, all while standing up in a bar, with a lady in the other arm.
Her claim is he inserted his hands on her underwear at the leg opening. An expert told me that would likely leave touch DNA.
Try to picture a 6-7 male fingering a woman.
The alleged victim has to much taller than the average woman.
Or the perp had to be seated.
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This just sounds so flimsy. Something isn’t adding up.
Uh oh, Spark is gonna come after you!
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Her claim is he inserted his hands on her underwear at the leg opening. An expert told me that would likely leave touch DNA.
Try to picture a 6-7 male fingering a woman.
The alleged victim has to much taller than the average woman.
Or the perp had to be seated.
The word "flick" has meaning. One would think.
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: to move or propel with a light quick movement
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Her claim is he inserted his hands on her underwear at the leg opening. An expert told me that would likely leave touch DNA.
Try to picture a 6-7 male fingering a woman.
The alleged victim has to much taller than the average woman.
Or the perp had to be seated.
Actually an alleged DNA crime lab staff expert stated on the Loyalty threads that you are very active on that it would not.
Additionally other alleged legal experts are stating the absence of DNA in this situation was irrelevant.
For whatever rationale, the DA feels this meets the legal standard for the charges.
I guess we will see how it plays out.
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Actually an alleged DNA crime lab staff expert stated on the Loyalty threads that you are very active on that it would not.
You mean this alleged crime lab expert that changed his story?:
nichi said:
How about from underwear? She told the investigator he put his hands inside her underwear at the leg opening. The underwear were collected as evidence at the hospital.
Reply:
Ah, I was not as informed on this info. Could be possible to pick him up on the underwear that way. We routinely swab wristbands, cuffs, elastic, etc for touch DNA in these scenarios.
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: to move or propel with a light quick movement
I know. That's why it is odd that it was used in this instance.
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I know. That's why it is odd that it was used in this instance.
Not much that isn't odd about this story.
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Not much that isn't odd about this story.
I cannot disagree there. Grab assing, ok, can see it. Full finger blasting in a crowded bar while "flicking" the underwear out of the way? Hmmmm.
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Spark is gonna have an aneurism listening to all this speculation! Please stop, you guys are sickening and embarrassing! 😂
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...you guys are sickening and embarrassing! 😂
It is Wednesday, after all.
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You mean this alleged crime lab expert that changed his story?:
nichi said:
How about from underwear? She told the investigator he put his hands inside her underwear at the leg opening. The underwear were collected as evidence at the hospital.
Reply:
Ah, I was not as informed on this info. Could be possible to pick him up on the underwear that way. We routinely swab wristbands, cuffs, elastic, etc for touch DNA in these scenarios.
Well he didn't change his story. His initial statement was about the ability to separate her bodily fluids and any of his DNA he possibly left from touch enough that was definitive and he stated that it was not likely possible.
You added another location in your question. He said that could be possible.
But the other poster who was the alleged legal expert on the how these charges can reach this level has stated that the absence does not actually exonerate him.
Of course, many on Loyalty are now in an uproar assuming she has simply made an unfounded false claim for sport or money and has a DA with an agenda in complicity with her.
I know we all want this to be resolved in his favor, but the DA office staff are not likely completely subjective deceptive or ignorant idiots who filed baseless charges that any Cousin Vinny could easily discredit.
They know what meets the criteria and apparently believe they can argue that for whatever reason after three months of consideration.
Nobody knows what they have. It very well may turn out to be not enough. Maybe they are completely incompetent and didn't realize this would have intense scrutiny.
Yes, it is all unusual.
The system will hopefully do its job as intended in the end.
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It very well may turn out to be not enough. Maybe they are completely incompetent and didn't realize this would have intense scrutiny.
Yes, it is all unusual.
The system will hopefully do its job as intended in the end.
That’s just the issue though. Did the system do its job as intended in the end if that’s the case?! It actually ruined a kids life, who by all accounts is allegedly an upstanding individual. That’s the issue at hand here. The legal system (which is suppose to allow due process, and innocent until proven guilty) failed this person by dragging it out and doing him irreparable harm. If they brought a case as you stated above, they would be part of the problem. I don’t see any problem with debating that or seeing that side of the picture…
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There is a contingent that thinks the DA / ADA must have a lot more evidence they have yet to share.
It is hard to imagine what that could be.
The police interviewed the accuser and her sole witness.
According to Court filings, police didn't bother to interview Hobson, Harmon, or the KU players. It appears one KU player was interviewed in January after charges were filed.
The video evidence has been released.
There is wild speculation that TJ may have 'said something' to police when he was cooperating in late September..
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That’s just the issue though. Did the system do its job as intended in the end if that’s the case?! It actually ruined a kids life, who by all accounts is allegedly an upstanding individual. That’s the issue at hand here. The legal system (which is suppose to allow due process, and innocent until proven guilty) failed this person by dragging it out and doing him irreparable harm. If they brought a case as you stated above, they would be part of the problem. I don’t see any problem with debating that or seeing that side of the picture…
Yes, the timeline seems unusual, but I don't know the standard allowable timeframe process for evaluating a complaint and filing charges to judge that.
Inefficiency is not necessarily malice with intent to harm his earning ability or career. Maybe this is a normal timeframe. Pretty big hill to climb there. If, however, improprieties are uncovered then he has a federal civil rights case and grounds for a civil suit.
He is technically getting due process, albeit, it is slow, and is innocent until proven guilty.
One possible scenario if this all fails apart in the end is he gets picked up as FA after the draft.
Not sure where he can play in the interim in US or overseas, but if he is good enough they will find him.
Yes, he would likely lose his initial guaranteed contract money if he was truly late first round which is where he was starting to show up.
It all sucks and nothing wrong with debating it, but in the end nobody knows WTF is going on or what is going to happen.
I just have a wait and see perspective.
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There is a contingent that thinks the DA / ADA must have a lot more evidence they have yet to share.
It is hard to imagine what that could be.
The police interviewed the accuser and her sole witness.
According to Court filings, police didn't bother to interview Hobson, Harmon, or the KU players. It appears one KU player was interviewed in January after charges were filed.
The video evidence has been released.
There is wild speculation that TJ may have 'said something' to police when he was cooperating in late September..
Said something as in a statement that was incriminating?
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What's the latest, any chance this gets resolved in the next week and he's back on the court soon?
Seems like nothing happened. Some bump and grind and wandering hands. That's not rape.
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Said something as in a statement that was incriminating?
There was speculation without evidence to that effect.
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Loyalty insiders have gone quiet. One says we might hear something tomorrow or the next day.
It's hard to say what lack of a quick answer means.
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Before everyone gets their tit in a wringer, isn't the preliminary hearing set for Friday? Some of the issues raised may be addressed then.
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Loyalty insiders have gone quiet. One says we might hear something tomorrow or the next day.
It's hard to say what lack of a quick answer means.
Maybe they are trading notes on how to troll everyone over there
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Before everyone gets their tit in a wringer, isn't the preliminary hearing set for Friday? Some of the issues raised may be addressed then.
Sound like that hearing might be a nothing burger.
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Sound like that hearing might be a nothing burger.
Always possible. But why do you believe that?
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Always possible. But why do you believe that?
https://twitter.com/IllinoisRivals/status/1747388294709547127?t=7zmhCqwWDrWixnOjP6tarw&s=19
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https://twitter.com/IllinoisRivals/status/1747388294709547127?t=7zmhCqwWDrWixnOjP6tarw&s=19
Wasn't bond already set and he posted it?
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Wasn't bond already set and he posted it?
I assume he's in step 2.
No Go Prelim, Docket Setting, Status Setting. Defendant appears on a docket. Next court date is set. This setting can be repeated a number of times.
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I assume he's in step 2.
No Go Prelim, Docket Setting, Status Setting. Defendant appears on a docket. Next court date is set. This setting can be repeated a number of times.
https://x.com/mitchgilfillan/status/1747653028545544663?s=46&t=nLWTarDKWNHMqYhTVD-LQQ
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https://x.com/mitchgilfillan/status/1747653028545544663?s=46&t=nLWTarDKWNHMqYhTVD-LQQ
Subpoena for the DNA lab results is out there.
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Whoever thinks this is going to be resolved any time soon is fooling themselves. It’s going to be a long, arduous legal process before any resolution is reached.
Only hope for TSJ suiting up for the Illini again is the TRO. If it’s denied, this is the team we’re riding with for better or worse.
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Whoever thinks this is going to be resolved any time soon is fooling themselves. It’s going to be a long, arduous legal process before any resolution is reached.
Only hope for TSJ suiting up for the Illini again is the TRO. If it’s denied, this is the team we’re riding with for better or worse.
Agreed the TSJ All-American train will not leave the station again this year for the ILLINI, it is a shame. We had a very good-great year going, and dare I say it was in a down year nationwide.
There is not one team in the nation this year that you can look at and say, they can't be beat, this year will have a non blue blood winning the national title imo, thanks in large part to the transfer portal and the NIL game that is being played.
The good old days of say a legit 5-8 teams every year being looked at to win the C-Ship is long gone. This is a plus to the ILLINI in the future as well as many other program due to evening the playing field, this year it will not help us with our biggest transfer ever being no longer with us.
Best of wishes TSJ, and the young lady involved, I hope whatever the truth is, it actually comes out and the result is commensurate with that outcome for either party.
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Preliminary hearing set for Feb. 23rd.
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Preliminary hearing set for Feb. 23rd.
So maybe we get him back by end of Feb
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So maybe we get him back by end of Feb
I wouldn’t get my hopes up on that.
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So maybe we get him back by end of Feb
Maybe if he had Perry Mason as his attorney.
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https://champaignshowers.com/longer-reads/foia-requests-illuminate-details-in-shannon-investigation/
Hmmmmm.
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I think the only way he's back this season is if he pleas to a misdemeanor and the university is 100% behind him that it was a bogus charge that never should've been filed.
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Can’t argue with the esteemed lawyer folk here.
Have to think if anything positive is going to happen it’s going to be sooner than later due to the urgency being put forth legally.
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This probably won't surprise anybody here, but I think suspending him was/is the correct move.
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I think the only way he's back this season is if he pleas to a misdemeanor and the university is 100% behind him that it was a bogus charge that never should've been filed.
Just a guess but I would think not only plea down to a misdemeanor, but specifically not the misdemeanor 'sexual battery' he was charged with. I would think if he pled guilty to misdemeanor sexual battery, he would probably be kicked off the team.
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This probably won't surprise anybody here, but I think suspending him was/is the correct move.
For like the 69th time, we get it.
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For like the 69th time, we get it.
69. Good one.
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69. Good one.
It’s my favorite. Dinner for two.
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Maybe if he had Perry Mason as his attorney.
Or perhaps this guy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wtz2k109Ig
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Or perhaps this guy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wtz2k109Ig
And Herman Muenster as the judge?
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after reading the foia pdf's from that blog
I dunno, sounds like a pretty bad case and he'll be proven innocent unless the DNA shows something
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after reading the foia pdf's from that blog
I dunno, sounds like a pretty bad case and he'll be proven innocent unless the DNA shows something
Dunno. I was surprised they seemed to be telling TSj lawyers to expect being charged even before the DNA tests.
Others have said the absence of DNA is not necessarily exculpatory.
Have no idea the exact definition in Kansas of rape and what makes the verbal complaint report of an alleged victim credible.
It does appear our team is on the floor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjMietBMwLM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjMietBMwLM)
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I'm no lawyer either, but waiting for the DNA seems like a good idea.
The DNA was taken Sept 29. Less than a month later, Leitner anticipated a charge, if a charge had not been filed already. The charge came 2 months later and 3 months after the DNA sample.
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For like the 69th time, we get it.
Sorry next time I’ll say something openly stupid as fuck so you don’t make some shit up and call me out.
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So much animosity on this board like a bunch of jobus arguing with each other
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Let's see. Repeat the same shit over and over. Get called out for it. Then play victim. Sounds oddly familiar.
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I'm no lawyer either, but waiting for the DNA seems like a good idea.
The DNA was taken Sept 29. Less than a month later, Leitner anticipated a charge, if a charge had not been filed already. The charge came 2 months later and 3 months after the DNA sample.
I think the colloquial perspective is that DNA would indicate or exonerate an accuser but maybe that is not the case.
They have the test results and they moved forward.
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They have the test results ...
Then that's something that isn't in the FOIA'd stuff, but also very possible that the results came back before charging.
It's going to be a long several months for everyone involved.
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(https://i.ibb.co/D9PKz8j/Screenshot-20240119-105515.png) (https://ibb.co/N9gYtmG)
Item 10. 🤷♂️
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Then that's something that isn't in the FOIA'd stuff, but also very possible that the results came back before charging.
It's going to be a long several months for everyone involved.
I just scanned it but it sounded like they told TSj team that charges were coming pretty early on.
I may have misread that.
But it sure sounds like that they must have the DNA results now and it has not deterred them from moving forward.
Agree it is probably going to be a long haul for everyone. It happened in September and the prelim hearing is late Feb. That is five months already.
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Dunno. I was surprised they seemed to be telling TSj lawyers to expect being charged even before the DNA tests.
Others have said the absence of DNA is not necessarily exculpatory.
Have no idea the exact definition in Kansas of rape and what makes the verbal complaint report of an alleged victim credible.
It does appear our team is on the floor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjMietBMwLM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjMietBMwLM)
Cop puts in email to UIUC cop that charges were filed or forthcoming before DNA test. Guenther Jr. claims in presser they had nothing in writing to indicate charges were being considered, blah blah blah. Hmmmmmm.
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Cop puts in email to UIUC cop that charges were filed or forthcoming before DNA test. Guenther Jr. claims in presser they had nothing in writing to indicate charges were being considered, blah blah blah. Hmmmmmm.
Did the UIUC cop forward that to Whitman ? If not, then .....
If no charges were ever filed, then .......
Leitner said he "anticipated" charges, not that they were filed or forthcoming.
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TRO is granted!! Shannon wins!
https://twitter.com/mitchgilfillan/status/1748458937081360619
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I would gloat, but not my style.
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Get ready boys. We’re about to become the villains of college basketball. Opposing student sections are going to have a field day with this.
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Fuck yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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What's the latest, any chance this gets resolved in the next week and he's back on the court soon?
Seems like nothing happened. Some bump and grind and wandering hands. That's not rape.
Let's get this resolved by next week!!!
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It's been resolved?
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It's been resolved?
Until his hearing, yeah.
I knew you'd be here "not to gloat" the second I saw the dude in that tweet claim the judge granted him relief based on Title IX.
She didn't, though, and that dude already had to issue a correction. Title IX didn't apply.
I feel pretty dirty about this personally, but doesn't matter how I feel about it at all.
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https://twitter.com/mitchgilfillan/status/1748458937081360619?t=7uU84wR16MKHNuRJIoNlTw&s=19
No title IX relief as of now..
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That tweet said he was not provided safeguards he was entitled to under Title IX, and due process.
Surprised TBH but this whole thing is just strange.
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TJ had himself an elite legal team. They are the true MVPs here.
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That tweet said he was not provided safeguards he was entitled to under Title IX, and due process.
Surprised TBH but this whole thing is just strange.
Yes, and the guy who tweeted it replied and corrected himself that the ruling did not provide him relief under Title IX.
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So it was due process. Not Title IX.
Will be interested to see how UI responds and if they play him right away.
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I would gloat, but not my style.
Go ahead. It's not your style but most of what I got out of your posts was the processes involved.
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So it was due process. Not Title IX.
Will be interested to see how UI responds and if they play him right away.
Damned if they do and damned if they don't.
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It's all pretty crazy.
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My Purdue neighbor just texted me the news. This is nuts.
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I stand corrected. Terrible legal result, great basketball result!
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Could see a way more emotionally charged team the rest of year
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Get ready boys. We’re about to become the villains of college basketball. Opposing student sections are going to have a field day with this.
If he actually gets to play the rest of the year (I’ll believe it when I see it) think he and this group will feed off that and just punish mofos
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Please give us a National Championship 🏆 🙏🏼 that’s all I want before I die! 😂
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I want a title too, but I am not willing to sell out my values for it personally. And this feels gross. IANAL and IANAJ, but that ruling seems wild as fuck to me.
Among other things, the ruling says that not playing basketball hurts his NIL value (the NCAA probably doesn't like that much, since pay for play is still technically against the rules - and in theory, he is already under contract for his name/image/likeness whether he plays or not), that his status as a potential NBA draft pick is part of why they ruled that he is suffering material harm (i.e., a player who isn't an NBA prospect may not be granted the same rights - even citing his ranking falling on an NBA mock draft), and that he is being hurt in part because "many of these (remaining) games will be against other nationally ranked teams and will be on national television".
He is good at basketball, so it is a violation of his right to play basketball for him to be suspended because of a pending felony rape charge.
I don't want to hear any Illini fans make fun of Alabama for Brandon Miller playing ever again. I like Shannon, I hope he is innocent and the charges are dropped and he has a long NBA career, but this feels dirty to me personally.
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A jury found that the likely Republican candidate for President actually did what TJ is only accused of.
Yes, it was a civil trial. Also, it was sexual assault or battery, not digital rape, due to the definitions in jurisdictions.
Still, it is the same general act.
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!!!!!!
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A jury found that the likely Republican candidate for President actually did what TJ is only accused of.
Yes, it was a civil trial. Also, it was sexual assault or battery, not digital rape, due to the definitions in jurisdictions.
Still, it is the same general act.
And that's ... good? fine?
In what way is that relevant, other than to say "this is fucked up how we normalize this sort of thing"?
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"Generally, under Illinois law, a plaintiff must present evidence in support of four factors before a court will issue a TRO or other form of injunction: (1) the plaintiff possesses a clearly ascertainable right in need of protection, (2) there is a likelihood that the plaintiff will succeed on the merits, (3) the plaintiff will suffer irreparable harm if an injunction does not issue, and (4) the plaintiff has no adequate remedy at law. A fifth factor frequently considered by trial courts involves balancing the equities or the relative hardships." -- Google it
The judge found all 5.
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Among other things, the ruling says that not playing basketball hurts his NIL value (the NCAA probably doesn't like that much, since pay for play is still technically against the rules - and in theory, he is already under contract for his name/image/likeness whether he plays or not), that his status as a potential NBA draft pick is part of why they ruled that he is suffering material harm (i.e., a player who isn't an NBA prospect may not be granted the same rights - even citing his ranking falling on an NBA mock draft), and that he is being hurt in part because "many of these (remaining) games will be against other nationally ranked teams and will be on national television".
Yup. This is just harm, most of which is speculative and not irreparable. He has adequate remedies of law for much of the harm. And this sidesteps that he doesn't have a protected right to play college basketball in the first place.
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And that's ... good? fine?
In what way is that relevant, other than to say "this is fucked up how we normalize this sort of thing"?
There is a good chance that a man of highly questionable character who actually digitally raped a woman might be the next President of the United States.
I think a young man with a spotless record, who is widely known to be a good person, that has been accused in questionable circumstances, can play basketball while the case is sorted out.
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Wtf is wrong with you people bringing Trump into everything
Grow up and take it to the deuce
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Wtf is wrong with you people bringing Trump into everything
Grow up and take it to the deuce
You grow up. I never mentioned the rapists name.
It is a coincidence that he did what our guy is accused of doing.
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Trying to get my head around this.
What if DGL gets pissed off in practice tomorrow and calls Frazier a mthrfcker and tells him to suck his dick.
UW suspends him from team for three games.
DGL sues on Monday to be reinstated and wants monetary damages.
Cites instances where UW regularly uses profanity towards athletes and that the suspension damages his present NIL opportunities and chances for a pro career here or overseas. Notes that players in top 125 rankings in HS typically have opportunities to play pro.
What happens then???
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We should not be surprised. A court used virtually the same reasoning wrt the NCAA transfer rule.
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Trying to get my head around this.
What if DGL gets pissed off in practice tomorrow and calls Frazier a mthrfcker and tells him to suck his dick.
UW suspends him from team for three games.
DGL sues on Monday to be reinstated and wants monetary damages.
Cites instances where UW regularly uses profanity towards athletes and that the suspension damages his present NIL opportunities and chances for a pro career here or overseas. Notes that players in top 125 rankings in HS typically have opportunities to play pro.
What happens then???
From my understanding, the TRO was granted not because he was suspended and not even because the OSCR policy as written was unfair, but because they didn't grant him a hearing and let him present his evidence and decide whether the suspension was justified based on the evidence. The judge said he was not granted the due process promised to him under the OSCR (Office of Student Conflict Resolution) policy as written.
I don't claim to have a great grasp of how 'precedent' works in law, but it seems like a poor precedent that a judge (or more specifically, whatever online mock drafts a lawyer can reference) determines who is a valid NBA prospect, and then applies different legal standards to people who do or don't meet the criteria. That's kind of fucked up.
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Ok, so if a coach wants to suspend any athlete in any sport there needs to be a formal hearing.
All are eligible for NIL and can make arguments that it would negatively impact their present earning ability.
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They can’t help themselves. They say his followers have TDS, but it’s actually them. It’s quite astonishing…
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Ok, so if a coach wants to suspend any athlete in any sport there needs to be a formal hearing.
All are eligible for NIL and can make arguments that it would negatively impact their present earning ability.
To some degree, yes - it seems like the same argument would enable any NIL earning athlete to say, you can't suspend me and harm my NIL value without a criminal conviction or at least a formal hearing where you look at my evidence and whatever evidence the cops/DA/SA are willing to provide you against me.
I think it seems absolutely crazy to tell a university they need to determine the likelihood of someone's guilt in a courtroom before they suspend him, but here we are.
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The NCAA offers Exceptional Student-Athlete Disability Insurance Program
There is also Loss of Value insurance.
Not just anyone qualifies.
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Maybe Dain Dainja will sue Brad for arbitrarily and capriciously reducing his minutes?
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Spark u have to learn to get over it. He did not rape anyone. Today is a good day for Illinois.
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Spark u have to learn to get over it. He did not rape anyone. Today is a good day for Illinois.
Do you think the story the alleged victim told is true?
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I think it seems absolutely crazy to tell a university they need to determine the likelihood of someone's guilt in a courtroom before they suspend him, but here we are.
No criminal defense attorney really wants their client testifying at such a thing, either.
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Ok, so if a coach wants to suspend any athlete in any sport there needs to be a formal hearing.
All are eligible for NIL and can make arguments that it would negatively impact their present earning ability.
We probably need to take a step back. The NIL value appears to relate to an ascertainable right and irreparable harm. That, sliding in the draft, lack of other legal remedies, likelihood of success on merits, the fact he has more to lose than the University given wcs's is or are why he got the tro.
The lack of due process has to do with being accused of a major violation of the student code of conduct. Has nothing to do with NIL or being a pro prospect.
If a player breaks team rules; that falls under BU's discretion.
Violations of DIA rules are under Whitman.
All that iirc
I could be wrong
It happens on rare occasions
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Please give us a National Championship 🏆 🙏🏼 that’s all I want before I die! 😂
If we win it all, send that judge a gift basket. :D
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We probably need to take a step back. The NIL value appears to relate to an ascertainable right and irreparable harm. That, sliding in the draft, lack of other legal remedies, likelihood of success on merits, the fact he has more to lose than the University given wcs's is or are why he got the tro.
The lack of due process has to do with being accused of a major violation of the student code of conduct. Has nothing to do with NIL or being a pro prospect.
If a player breaks team rules; that falls under BU's discretion.
Violations of DIA rules are under Whitman.
All that iirc
I could be wrong
It happens on rare occasions
A lot to unwrap here.
Have to think it presents an ethical dilemma for UI basketball if they now play him. Returning to full eligibility status which the Chancellor now acknowledges puts the onus now on UI basketball if they choose to play him.
One assumes they will.
One also assumes they are not going to now conduct the formal hearing process it was determined he had been denied.
As noted it would be unlikely that anyone here, at a minimum, would not be suspended until resolution of the matter from their job, or even terminated if they were charged with a felony rape charge.
I know people have compared this to the Brandon Miller situation, but he was never charged.
Not sure how I feel about it. I have several friends who feel the same way who also have been Illini fans and/or graduates for decades.
The ultimate determinant of his future lies with the outcome in the Kansas court system - Not the remaining 14 games at UI.
The NBA has seen him for 4. 5 years and where his level is now.
UI can play him but if the matter is still not dropped or resolved in his favor he will have the same dilemma he has now come NBA draft time.
Maybe a team picks him on a flyer in second round or as FA to get his rights with no contract guarantee. Have no idea.
It is certainly uncharted water.
https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/39345061/shannon-jr-allowed-rejoin-illini-judge-grants-restraining-order (https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/39345061/shannon-jr-allowed-rejoin-illini-judge-grants-restraining-order)
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Glad to see some people here believe in Star Chamber justice where you aren't given the opportunity to defend yourself. So much for Guenther Jr."s "process."
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Did the UIUC cop forward that to Whitman ? If not, then .....
If no charges were ever filed, then .......
Leitner said he "anticipated" charges, not that they were filed or forthcoming.
So either Guenther Jr. lied or his "process" here was incompetent. Pick your poison.
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I think there is nothing typical about the situation but we live in strange times.
I do wonder how this will be received by various advocacy groups on campus when he plays and by the national media.
The ESPN article was very neutral.
Maybe no big deal. There is little consensus on anything any longer in our grievance based society - even on issues that one might think there would be. And truth and facts are mostly irrelevant.
We have a guy with 91 felony counts with damning incriminating evidence publicly known including several counts to overthrow the government, plus an actual indicated finding of rape that half the country thinks not only can still be POTUS, but they will never accept if/when he is found guilty.
A college kid playing basketball while awaiting a rape trial with still limited known basis for the charges (who is innocent until proven guilty) is maybe inconsequential and probably way easier to accept in today's world.
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So either Guenther Jr. lied or his "process" here was incompetent. Pick your poison.
It may be a situation where the application of the process was faulty and university attorneys convinced Whitman that the suspension was the only recourse for a student athlete in a situation such as this.
TSJ was not in Lawrence because the U of I basketball team had a game to play. Anybody can show up at the Jayhawk. A ticket to the football game that day is not required. TSJ was not in Lawrence representing the university as a student athlete.
There is a multistate lawsuit challenging the NCAA position on an athlete being required to sit for a year following 2 transfers claiming it illegally impedes an athlete's ability to profit off of NIL.
TSJ's case is not the only 1 regarding loss of NIL.
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Agree the whole thing feels weird and who knows what’ll happen next or what precedent(s) it sets.
I do think it muddies the water when people say he doesn’t have a “protected right to play basketball.” Maybe prior to the Wild West of immediate transfer eligibility and NIL, but it’s big business now for the elite players. Big business means connected attorneys being funded by wealthy, connected alumni all tied into an influential flagship university with a lot to lose/gain.
Someone losing their job at Home Depot or as a teacher etc for getting charged with rape isn’t likely to have the same amenities available to them.
The schools and NCAA have been systematically milking the talent and effort of student athletes for decades and there was little the student athletes could do about it. That’s obviously changing now with more power/money shifting to the athletes. That’s something most of us have been wanting, but it’s not without its conundrums. Will be interesting to see how it all plays out.
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TSJ afforded the time to play while the system determines the outcome one way or another is the right thing to do in this instance and every instance imo, whether we as ILLINI fans are so delusional to want/need/crave a NCAA Championship.
The charge/circumstance/details are all murky, ambiguous and suspect start to finish.
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The idea that the NIL creates rights against the university that weren't there before the NIL system seems unfounded.
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It may be a situation where the application of the process was faulty and university attorneys convinced Whitman that the suspension was the only recourse for a student athlete in a situation such as this.
TSJ was not in Lawrence because the U of I basketball team had a game to play. Anybody can show up at the Jayhawk. A ticket to the football game that day is not required. TSJ was not in Lawrence representing the university as a student athlete.
There is a multistate lawsuit challenging the NCAA position on an athlete being required to sit for a year following 2 transfers claiming it illegally impedes an athlete's ability to profit off of NIL.
TSJ's case is not the only 1 regarding loss of NIL.
The Kansas cop emailed the UIUC cop that they either were proceeding with filing against TSJ or it had already happened at the time they asked fke DNA. If that was not passed up.the chain, then they are incompetent. If it was, then Guenther Jr lied. There is no other answer here, well, maybe "Tsmpo."
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The idea that the NIL creates rights against the university that weren't there before the NIL system seems unfounded.
To your point, and Custard's, I listened to Bob from IlliniBoard's podcast to some The Twittsr lawyer who apparently has been all over this. He addressed that Shannon was in quite the unique spot from many other athletes with NIL, real NBA aspirational, etc. He is not some bench guy or college fencer.
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TSJ afforded the time to play while the system determines the outcome one way or another is the right thing to do in this instance and every instance imo, whether we as ILLINI fans are so delusional to want/need/crave a NCAA Championship.
The charge/circumstance/details are all murky, ambiguous and suspect start to finish.
It is the right thing to do where the university appears to have failed to offer him even the chance to defend himself.
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"People generally see what they look for, and hear what they listen for,....."
Harper Lee
It's hard for Illini fans not to be severely conflicted. I know i am.
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To get a TRO entered and to (initially) lose basically an argument over university processes is a huge deal. This does not happen unless the university really fucks up given how the law is tilted towards the universities. All of Guenther, Jr.'s press conference babble has proven to be just that.
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"People generally see what they look for, and hear what they listen for,....."
Harper Lee
It's hard for Illini fans not to be severely conflicted. I know i am.
They could a) appeal to the 7th Circuit, b) proceed with the preliminary injunction hearing in 10 days or so (generally how long a TRO lasts) and/or c)) restart the disciplinary process by giving TSJ the opportunity to defend himself.
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The Kansas cop emailed the UIUC cop that they either were proceeding with filing against TSJ or it had already happened at the time they asked fke DNA.
Nope. From the email ....
“Unfortunately, I don’t have any update for you. I anticipate he either was charged or will be soon."
I have no idea what obligations to divulge, or obligations to not divulge, that the UIUC cop would be operating under.
If he can go to Whitman, he's still reporting an "anticipation" if there is no record of a charge.
If charging decisions were made on Dec 5, well after the "anticipation" email, and filed on Dec 6 were they under seal until the end of the month ?
Get yer tits out of the wringer in order to engage brain. ;D
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If he gets a disciplinary hearing and wins against a lower burden of proof but is convicted of of sexual battery it's going to make the university look utterly terrible.
The people adjudicating the hearing will know this.
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If he gets a disciplinary hearing and loses against a lower burden of proof and is acquitted of sexual battery it's going to make the university look terrible.
The people adjudicating the hearing should understand this.
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Nope. From the email ....
“Unfortunately, I don’t have any update for you. I anticipate he either was charged or will be soon."
I have no idea what obligations to divulge, or obligations to not divulge, that the UIUC cop would be operating under.
If he can go to Whitman, he's still reporting an "anticipation" if there is no record of a charge.
If charging decisions were made on Dec 5, well after the "anticipation" email, and filed on Dec 6 were they under seal until the end of the month ?
Get yer tits out of the wringer in order to engage brain. ;D
He anticipated that he would either or was going to be soon. There is no way that was not reported up the chain. If that was not reported up the chain, that is incompetence.
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If he gets a disciplinary hearing and wins against a lower burden of proof but is convicted of of sexual battery it's going to make the university look utterly terrible.
The people adjudicating the hearing will know this.
It does not matter. You still have to offer him a hearing.
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To your point, and Custard's, I listened to Bob from IlliniBoard's podcast to some The Twittsr lawyer who apparently has been all over this. He addressed that Shannon was in quite the unique spot from many other athletes with NIL, real NBA aspirational, etc. He is not some bench guy or college fencer.
I think this is a questionable argument to make. DGL has NBA aspirations and gets NIL, and is a bench guy.
I seem to recall a guy named Podz who any player could point to as a case in point.He was sitting on the end of bench and 14 months later was a millionaire playing with Steph Curry.
This all sets a strange precedent.
I would also say that if this was Sencire Harris and not TSj the fanbase and media would have not paid any attention to it after one weekend.
As to convening another disciplinary hearing, the dilemma raised for UI whether to have one now, and no matter what they adjudicate is real.
I would also say doing nothing and UW puts him on the court tomorrow or Wednesday vs NU, will also create some issues, but not sure the extent.
NU crowd is creative. but not hostile or particularly social advocacy engaged like Iowa City or Madison.
Chicago media will no doubt have some commentary.
Bottom line will be whether you believe the matter is unfounded or fabricated- UI will have a player on the court representing the university who presently is awaiting trial on felony rape charges.
Where is school allowed to draw the line? If the standard is they can play if they are out on bond and innocent until proven guilty then anything goes.
What if it was child porn on an athlete's computer he was allegedly found filming and distributing?
Manslaughter from say crashing into a crowd while drunk?
I tell my staff that trying to do the right thing is always the right thing no matter the risks, or challenges, or obstacles.
We will see what happens.
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He anticipated that he would either or was going to be soon. There is no way that was not reported up the chain. If that was not reported up the chain, that is incompetence.
Do you know that it could be reported up the chain ?
I don't.
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Do you know that it could be reported up the chain ?
I don't.
Then you choose "incompetent" as your answer. We all heard what Gunther Jr. claimed regarding what they knew and when they knew it.
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If he gets a disciplinary hearing and loses against a lower burden of proof and is acquitted of sexual battery it's going to make the university look terrible.
The people adjudicating the hearing should understand this.
What you typed is entirely consistent. Winning criminal and losing a civil on the same subject is the OJ fact pattern.
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Then you choose "incompetent" as your answer. We all heard what Gunther Jr. claimed regarding what they knew and when they knew it.
Seems like he was praying it would go away so they wouldn't have to deal with the exact position that the university now finds itself.
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Seems like he was praying it would go away so they wouldn't have to deal with the exact position that the university now finds itself.
Yep. Tough position to be in.
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They could a) appeal to the 7th Circuit, b) proceed with the preliminary injunction hearing in 10 days or so (generally how long a TRO lasts) and/or c)) restart the disciplinary process by giving TSJ the opportunity to defend himself.
The preliminary injunction was already granted, since the UI response was so thorough. No need for a hearing.
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The preliminary injunction was already granted, since the UI response was so thorough. No need for a hearing.
And the order is in place until lifted or modified.
I would hope the university has no interest in an appeal.
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Maybe I’m missing something but it seems some posters here have adopted an attitude of it being TSJ vs UI. Obviously they worked together on this with the goal being reinstatement for TSJ alongside plausible deniability for the U.
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Maybe I’m missing something but it seems some posters here have adopted an attitude of it being TSJ vs UI. Obviously they worked together on this with the goal being reinstatement for TSJ alongside plausible deniability for the U.
I think it 's the university against itself. If they would have followed OSCR to begin with Shannon would probably still be suspended.
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I think it 's the university against itself. If they would have followed OSCR to begin with Shannon would probably still be suspended.
This.
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I think it 's the university against itself. If they would have followed OSCR to begin with Shannon would probably still be suspended.
Do you think they want him suspended?
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I don't think so, but they need to be able to have and enforce a code of conduct for student athletes.
I would like to know how many other players in college basketball have had a felony rape charge and still competed while it was in process.
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Do you think they want him suspended?
Nope.
But I'm not sure they followed or didn't want to follow the path they should have. If they follow OSCR policy, a judge does not ok the TRO. And Shannon is suspended.
Then Shannon would have to go to court to challenge the university OSCR. I'm sure the university wouldn't relish that but it would probably be a steep hill for Shannon to climb.
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I don't think so, but they need to be able to have and enforce a code of conduct for student athletes.
I would like to know how many other players in college basketball have had a felony rape charge and still competed while it was in process.
I think the judge is saying that TSJ being in Lawrence wasn't student athlete related. The basketball team wasn't in town and he wasn't in Lawrence representing the university.
The university should be making the decision and not the DIA.
If it goes thru OSCR policy then the decision doesn't get to the DIA.
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If the Judge ruled he was in Lawrence on a University sponsored trip; then Title IX applies and that is whole 'nother can o' worms.
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I have no doubt the DIA doesn't actually want him suspended and has tried to position things to get him on the court to the extent it can. The unknown is how much the university and its legal department want to or can go along with that, which is far more complicated than what is good for the current basketball year. Legally, district court opinions aren't binding precedent, and prejudgment rulings have even less persuasive sway. If they appeal the 7th Cir it's a tell that someone higher up is taking some principled stand on it, and it will probably draw amicus briefing, but may not be decided until it doesn't matter anymore. The best thing they can probably do is pretend like the court case isn't there until it's moot.
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This.
Except that process probably would still.be ongoing?
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Maybe I’m missing something but it seems some posters here have adopted an attitude of it being TSJ vs UI. Obviously they worked together on this with the goal being reinstatement for TSJ alongside plausible deniability for the U.
LOL. Who you crapping ?
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I think it 's the university against itself. If they would have followed OSCR to begin with Shannon would probably still be suspended.
We learned that Guenther Jr. Is a liar or completely incompetent and UIUC has shit lawyers.
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The preliminary injunction was already granted, since the UI response was so thorough. No need for a hearing.
Huh?
I'll admit to having a few drinks tonight, but this makes no sense.
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I have no doubt the DIA doesn't actually want him suspended and has tried to position things to get him on the court to the extent it can. The unknown is how much the university and its legal department want to or can go along with that, which is far more complicated than what is good for the current basketball year. Legally, district court opinions aren't binding precedent, and prejudgment rulings have even less persuasive sway. If they appeal the 7th Cir it's a tell that someone higher up is taking some principled stand on it, and it will probably draw amicus briefing, but may not be decided until it doesn't matter anymore. The best thing they can probably do is pretend like the court case isn't there until it's moot.
Seriously? They purposely prevented him the opportunity to present a defense so he could sue them and win?
Fucking Guenther Jr. spent 20 minutes about how great their process was in his presser just so TSJ could win a TRO because they denied him the ability make a defense?
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Huh?
I'll admit to having a few drinks tonight, but this makes no sense.
Did I type too fast?
The Judge already granted the preliminary injunction.
The University's response was very thorough and detailed. They shot their whole wad. There is nothing more to be gleaned from another hearing.
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We learned that Guenther Jr. Is a liar or completely incompetent and UIUC has shit lawyers.
Nope.
You decided that Whitman didn't handle this correctly, that he had something in writing indicating that charges had been filed and he wasn't forthcoming.
Imo, the UIUC shit lawyers should have followed OSCR policy and kept the decision out of the hands of the man who said he had nothing in writing and was following the process used in other instances.
If the UIUC police didn't give Whitman the charging documents that apparently they didn't have, I'm not sure that Whitman should be your target. Were the charges under seal from Dec 5 to the end of the month ?
If the last information that FOIA shows is an Oct 24 opinion that anticipated that charges would occur, wtf would you expect Whitman to do if he was given no updates until the end of Dec ?
"Tuesday, Dec. 5 — Shannon charging document filed in Douglas County, KS. It appears as though there is no mention of the document being filed in the FOIA requests – by DIA officials or by UIPD."
Nonetheless, the judge granting the TRO held that OSCR policy should have been the deciding factor. The judge is saying that Whitman was put in a position that he shouldn't have been.
If you want to hold Whitman accountable, maybe it should be that he should have told the university to go fuck themselves and it is an OSCR decision, and not his.
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Except that process probably would still.be ongoing?
So ?
If it was the correct procedure to follow, so be it.
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Geez. Mn bringing it today.
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https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/39345062/ui-police-aware-lawrence-investigation-3-months-suspending-shannon-jr (https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/39345062/ui-police-aware-lawrence-investigation-3-months-suspending-shannon-jr)
National media investigating the UI response now.
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https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/39345062/ui-police-aware-lawrence-investigation-3-months-suspending-shannon-jr (https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/39345062/ui-police-aware-lawrence-investigation-3-months-suspending-shannon-jr)
National media investigating the UI response now.
Yep, ESPN called me before writing the story.
JK. Lol
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Did I type too fast?
The Judge already granted the preliminary injunction.
The University's response was very thorough and detailed. They shot their whole wad. There is nothing more to be gleaned from another hearing.
I thought the judge entered a TRO. That usually lasts 10 days. Then there is a preliminary injunction hearing where there is testimony, etc.
Did the order actually grant a preliminary injunction and a TRO? I haven't been able to read the order yet
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Nope.
You decided that Whitman didn't handle this correctly, that he had something in writing indicating that charges had been filed and he wasn't forthcoming.
Imo, the UIUC shit lawyers should have followed OSCR policy and kept the decision out of the hands of the man who said he had nothing in writing and was following the process used in other instances.
If the UIUC police didn't give Whitman the charging documents that apparently they didn't have, I'm not sure that Whitman should be your target. Were the charges under seal from Dec 5 to the end of the month ?
If the last information that FOIA shows is an Oct 24 opinion that anticipated that charges would occur, wtf would you expect Whitman to do if he was given no updates until the end of Dec ?
"Tuesday, Dec. 5 — Shannon charging document filed in Douglas County, KS. It appears as though there is no mention of the document being filed in the FOIA requests – by DIA officials or by UIPD."
Nonetheless, the judge granting the TRO held that OSCR policy should have been the deciding factor. The judge is saying that Whitman was put in a position that he shouldn't have been.
If you want to hold Whitman accountable, maybe it should be that he should have told the university to go fuck themselves and it is an OSCR decision, and not his.
Guenther Jr got up there and said they had zero clue and nothing in writing about whether the case against Shannon would be proceeding. We have an email showing that the cop told the cop, whose job it appears was to find out what was going on in Kansas, that he anticipated the DA was proceeding if they had not done so already. Sure looks like they had something in writing, before the DNA sample was even taken.
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https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/39345062/ui-police-aware-lawrence-investigation-3-months-suspending-shannon-jr (https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/39345062/ui-police-aware-lawrence-investigation-3-months-suspending-shannon-jr)
National media investigating the UI response now.
They had the cops serve as an intermediary and now claim they couldn't get documents and info from the cops. Yeah, lot of back peddling going on here.
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I thought the judge entered a TRO. That usually lasts 10 days. Then there is a preliminary injunction hearing where there is testimony, etc.
Did the order actually grant a preliminary injunction and a TRO? I haven't been able to read the order yet
Reading the order on my phone which is not ideal.
Nichi is correct! Judge explains in her first footnote why she could enter a PI at this time.
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The DIA’s policy had been deployed regularly and its authority never challenged. Then along comes a star NIL athlete who has the means and community support to retain multiple good attorneys. Those attorneys then find a legal loophole and get TSJ back on the floor NOW, AND give the UI plausible deniability. Naturally The PAMan is MAD ABOUT IT.
Had he been put in OSCR from the get go he’d almost certainly be gone until legal resolution occurred and never play here again. Those wishing for OSCR to have been in play are de facto rooting for never seeing TSJ play for UI again barring dropping of charges.
At least with the DIA’s three person panel there was a chance he could come back without legal resolution.
Why do I have the feeling that if the UI had an ironclad policy in place to keep TSJ off the floor and avoid all this drama that ThePAMan would be bitching about how we are small potatoes and actual big time schools would have found a way to keep their best players on the court?
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Nobody has answered my simple question.
How many players do we know of have continued to play in intercollegiate athletics anywhere while out on bond for a felony rape charge, or any felony charge?
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The DIA’s policy had been deployed regularly and its authority never challenged. Then along comes a star NIL athlete who has the means and community support to retain multiple good attorneys. Those attorneys then find a legal loophole and get TSJ back on the floor NOW, AND give the UI plausible deniability. Naturally The PAMan is MAD ABOUT IT.
Had he been put in OSCR from the get go he’d almost certainly be gone until legal resolution occurred and never play here again. Those wishing for OSCR to have been in play are de facto rooting for never seeing TSJ play for UI again barring dropping of charges.
At least with the DIA’s three person panel there was a chance he could come back without legal resolution.
Why do I have the feeling that if the UI had an ironclad policy in place to keep TSJ off the floor and avoid all this drama that ThePAMan would be bitching about how we are small potatoes and actual big time schools would have found a way to keep their best players on the court?
If they are going to do it, do it right. My bitch was that Guenther Jr. was full of shit in the press conference while you, and others, were impressed with him and it. Judge just ruled he was full of shit. The lawyers did not find a "loophole." DIA, and the university, just fucked it up royal by not following the university's policies.
If you read the opinion, the judge, pp.23-24, noted that the university's policies for handling these types of claims outside of Title IX were to be followed as part of the DIA process that was explained by Guenther Jr. in the press conference.
"The sensible reading of this means that the OSCR policy—which outlines the
University’s regulations for handling allegations of student sexual misconduct—would
apply prior to the DIA’s interim suspension."
Pp 28-30, she notes the Purdue case, where the ROTC guy was provided notice of the allegations against him but not provided any evidence supporting the allegations.
"Of particular concern to the [Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals]
was the fact that the committee found the complainant more credible than the plaintiff in
a case that “boiled down to a he said/she said” without ever receiving a statement written
by the complainant herself, much less a sworn statement, or asking the complainant any
questions during the investigation. Id. at 664. The Seventh Circuit reasonably questioned
how the committee could have conducted an evaluation of credibility under those
circumstances.
The same holds true in this case...."
"Just as in Purdue, Plaintiff was given notice and the opportunity to submit evidence
but only in the form of a written statement and documents. He was unaware of the
alleged victim’s identity and there is no indication that he was given an opportunity to
view the evidence against him. In reliance on the DIA policy, the conduct panel did not
investigate the alleged offense, consider a written statement by the complainant, or have
the ability to weigh the credibility of evidence in light of the nature of the allegation.
Plaintiff was not allowed in the hearing and no recording or transcript of the proceeding
was provided to him. The conduct panel is not required to submit a written decision or
findings of fact for Plaintiff to ascertain the basis for the interim decision, and there is no
avenue to appeal an interim decision.
Conversely, the procedural safeguards awarded to Plaintiff under the OSCR
policy do not appear fundamentally unfair as written. The policy provides adequate
safeguards through detailed notice, levels of review, an actual investigation, disclosure
of evidence, witness participation, a defined burden of proof, and a written decision."
At the end, p.30, "Defendants are enjoined from suspending Plaintiff from the basketball team without at least affording him the protections of the OSCR Policy."
Nothing stopping them from going back and doing this right, instead of whatever shortcut process Gunther Jr. cooked up here.
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Nobody has answered my simple question.
How many players do we know of have continued to play in intercollegiate athletics anywhere while out on bond for a felony rape charge, or any felony charge?
No clue. How many schools provided Due Process, and followed their policies to do so, when suspending athletes under these conditions?
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Nobody has answered my simple question.
How many players do we know of have continued to play in intercollegiate athletics anywhere while out on bond for a felony rape charge, or any felony charge?
I do not know of any. Every college athlete I could find who was charged with a felony was indefinitely suspended before the trial was concluded.
Kobe played a season with a pending SA charge in the NBA.
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Apologies for BS formatting issues....
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The DIA’s policy had been deployed regularly and its authority never challenged. Then along comes a star NIL athlete who has the means and community support to retain multiple good attorneys. Those attorneys then find a legal loophole and get TSJ back on the floor NOW, AND give the UI plausible deniability. Naturally The PAMan is MAD ABOUT IT.
Had he been put in OSCR from the get go he’d almost certainly be gone until legal resolution occurred and never play here again. Those wishing for OSCR to have been in play are de facto rooting for never seeing TSJ play for UI again barring dropping of charges.
At least with the DIA’s three person panel there was a chance he could come back without legal resolution.
Why do I have the feeling that if the UI had an ironclad policy in place to keep TSJ off the floor and avoid all this drama that ThePAMan would be bitching about how we are small potatoes and actual big time schools would have found a way to keep their best players on the court?
I'm not sure that anyone here wants OSCR to be put in play. Pointing out that the reason TSJ can play today because the university did not follow OSCR policy is on the university.
I believe the TRO also called for expedited discovery. Without the discovery, I'm not sure that the university will move forward considering the bind that they put themselves in.
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The insinuation here is incompetence but I think what happened in the end was actually a pretty brilliant workaround for a rather unusual case.
Had there been decent evidence he forcibly raped someone in the traditional sense, people would feel differently. Given the nature of this case and with the university being sympathetic to TSJ the entire time, I don’t think the exposure to the university is really that high.
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Nobody has answered my simple question.
How many players do we know of have continued to play in intercollegiate athletics anywhere while out on bond for a felony rape charge, or any felony charge?
No, but here’s an example of what happened in exactly the opposite situation Illinois did…
Don’t think that’s a great thing to do to an innocent person.
https://x.com/thecardconnect/status/1749144823951442082?s=46&t=nLWTarDKWNHMqYhTVD-LQQ
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No, but here’s an example of what happened in exactly the opposite situation Illinois did…
Don’t think that’s a great thing to do to an innocent person.
https://x.com/thecardconnect/status/1749144823951442082?s=46&t=nLWTarDKWNHMqYhTVD-LQQ
TSj maintained full scholarship privileges and was not kicked off the team or out of school.
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TSj maintained full scholarship privileges and was not kicked off the team or out of school.
Exactly. So you want him to be treated like the example I showed?! Is that better look for the university?!
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The insinuation here is incompetence but I think what happened in the end was actually a pretty brilliant workaround for a rather unusual case.
I'm not sure this would have been their original intent but given some information and time to assess the situation it may be the case.
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Exactly. So you want him to be treated like the example I showed?! Is that better look for the university?!
Not sure how you could ever possibly come to that conclusion but you be you. ::)
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The insinuation here is incompetence but I think what happened in the end was actually a pretty brilliant workaround for a rather unusual case.
Had there been decent evidence he forcibly raped someone in the traditional sense, people would feel differently. Given the nature of this case and with the university being sympathetic to TSJ the entire time, I don’t think the exposure to the university is really that high.
The word brilliance for the university response does not immediately come to mind.
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Never took Custard and Mn as being "glass half full" guys, but here we are.
Given the difficulties in this instance for the university trying to investigate the claim, wouldn't the odds favor that he would not have been suspended to date?
After the preliminary hearing, with evidence been presented in the criminal case, maybe the odds shift?
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Not sure how you could ever possibly come to that conclusion but you be you. ::)
So you’d have kicked a potentially and possibly innocent kid off the team, ruin his life, and ostracized him from everything he currently has worked for his whole life, all because he’s being accused of something? Again, he should be able to play in the meantime. He’s currently innocent. That you can’t argue. I linked that example because you potentially make the mistake of hurting him and he’s found to have done nothing wrong.
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So you’d have kicked a potentially and possibly innocent kid off the team, ruin his life, and ostracized him from everything he currently has worked for his whole life, all because he’s being accused of something? Again, he should be able to play in the meantime. He’s currently innocent. That you can’t argue. I linked that example because you potentially make the mistake of hurting him and he’s found to have done nothing wrong.
Yes that is exactly what I said. ::)
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So ?
If it was the correct procedure to follow, so be it.
Others said he would still be suspended. That is possible. My impression is he would be playing pending a finding.
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Nobody has answered my simple question.
How many players do we know of have continued to play in intercollegiate athletics anywhere while out on bond for a felony rape charge, or any felony charge?
I googled it. It looks like there have been a lot that played while being charged or even convicted of a serious felony. It appears mostly at a new school.
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I googled it. It looks like there have been a lot that played while being charged or even convicted of a serious felony. It appears mostly at a new school.
Who’s the Kitna QB who got arrested for child porn and now playing?! Jon’s kid.
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Others said he would still be suspended. That is possible. My impression is he would be playing pending a finding.
I misunderstood, kind of. I was assuming his OSCR hearing would have occured. And I assume he won't be playing after a hearing.
If not, he may very well be playing until a hearing resolution.
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I misunderstood, kind of. I was assuming his OSCR hearing would have occured.
If not, he may very well be playing until a hearing resolution.
Yeah, I stated earlier that I must’ve got something mixed up or confused, or misunderstood something in this discussion.
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Due Process... From pages 19-20 of the opinion:
In Count VI, Plaintiff alleges a claim under 42 U.S.C. § 1983 against Illinois President Timothy Killeen for deprivation of Plaintiff’s protected interests without
procedural due process. (Doc. 1-1 at 38-39). Section 1983 provides, in pertinent part, that “[e]very person who, under color of [state law], subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States... to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities
secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law.” 42 U.S.C. § 1983. To state a valid claim for relief under § 1983, Plaintiff must
establish that he was deprived of a constitutional right or a right secured by federal law and that the alleged deprivation was committed under color of state law. American Mfrs.
Mut. Ins. Co. v. Sullivan, 526 U.S. 40, 49–50 (1999); Padula v. Leimbach, 656 F.3d 595, 600 (7th Cir. 2011).
The Fourteenth Amendment prevents a state from depriving a person of
“property” or “liberty” without due process of law. U.S. Const. amend. XIV, § 1. In order to proceed under a procedural due process claim, the plaintiff must first identify the protected property or liberty interest at stake. Malhotra v. University of Illinois at Urbana-
Champaign, 77 F.4th 532, 536 (7th Cir. 2023). Next, if the plaintiff was deprived of one of those interests, the court must determine what process was due under the circumstances. Id. (citing Charleston v. Bd. of Trustees of Univ. of Illinois at Chicago, 741 F.3d 769, 772 (7th
Cir. 2013)).
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Others said he would still be suspended. That is possible. My impression is he would be playing pending a finding.
From the OSCR site:
OSCR has several days to inform the accused with a charge notice. Cases of a non-sexual misconduct investigation average 20 days.
"The anticipated duration of a sexual misconduct investigation is approximately 40
business days following the charge notice."
If the university began the OSCR review the 1st week of January it may be the end of Big10 season or during March Madness that would be the earliest for any resolution.
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Who’s the Kitna QB who got arrested for child porn and now playing?! Jon’s kid.
He was dismissed by Florida after the arrest. Then got the felony charges dropped in a plea deal. Then enrolled at another school.
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Because there seems to be an issue here at HQ on this issue....pp33-35
Other courts have held that preventing student-athletes from competition creates an irreparable harm for which there is no adequate legal remedy. See Ganden v. NCAA, 1996 WL 680000, at *6 (N.D. Ill. Nov. 21, 1996). In Ganden, in considering a motion for injunctive relief filed by a freshman swimmer at Michigan State University, the district court found there would be irreparable harm for which there is no adequate remedy absent an injunction, particularly because the careers for competitive swimmers last only a few years and peak between the ages of 19 and 21. Id. at *1, 6. The court noted the swimmer would “lose an entire year of competition and a significant proportion of his swimming career” and “that the loss of a year of competition is likely to inhibit his development as a swimmer during a critical point in his career.” Id. Ultimately, the court concluded the losses would be difficult to quantify in financial terms. Id.; see also Hutsonville Cmty. Unit Sch. Dist. No. 1 v. Illinois High Sch. Ass’n, 195 N.E.3d 662, 666-667 (5th Dist. 2021) (high school senior athlete granted TRO “because failure to compete for a year was the type of injury that could not be corrected by monetary judgment”).
In contending Plaintiff has not suffered irreparable harm, Defendants cite Hall v. NCAA, 985 F. Supp. 782 (N.D. Ill. 1997), wherein the court considered the plaintiff’s request for injunctive relief after he was declared academically ineligible to play basketball at Bradley University. Id. at 784-785. The plaintiff in Hall was a freshman who had been highly recruited nationally out of high school. Id. at 785. Because he was deemed academically ineligible, the plaintiff was “ineligible to practice with, or compete on behalf of, Bradley’s men’s basketball team,” and was “not allowed to receive any part of his full athletic scholarship.” Id. at 791. The plaintiff alleged that absent an injunction, he would be “denied the opportunity to play major college basketball and pursue his dream of becoming a professional basketball player.” Id. at 800. The district court determined that, while a one-season delay might be an “inconvenience,” plaintiff had not shown that “a one season delay will extinguish [his] college (and hopeful professional) career, thereby irreparably harming him.” Id.
Defendants contend Plaintiff’s loss of the opportunity to compete is less severe than in Hall because Plaintiff has already played part of the season and the suspension is only temporary and subject to being lifted based on changed circumstances. The Court disagrees. Plaintiff is nearing the end of his college basketball career, not hoping to begin it like the plaintiff in Hall. The Hall plaintiff had at least three years to establish himself as a professional basketball prospect. While the plaintiff in Hall aspired to play professional basketball, Plaintiff’s professional basketball prospects are much more of a reality. Plaintiff’s projected draft position improved significantly based on his performance during the early part of the season.
[DISCUSSES NIL ISSUES.]
The Court recognizes that because of the pending criminal charges, some of this harm will remain whether or not Plaintiff resumes playing basketball this season. However, the Court finds there is some merit in Plaintiff’s assertion that, absent reinstatement, the public perception may be that the University presumes Plaintiff to be guilty or, in the very least, actually investigated whether the allegations were substantiated before suspending him for the duration of the season. More importantly, Plaintiff will not have an adequate remedy at law if, for argument purposes only, the pending criminal charges are dismissed, or he is acquitted on said charges after the conclusion of the basketball season and NBA Draft.
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From the OSCR site:
OSCR has several days to inform the accused with a charge notice. Cases of a non-sexual misconduct investigation average 20 days.
"The anticipated duration of a sexual misconduct investigation is approximately 40
business days following the charge notice."
If the university began the OSCR review the 1st week of January it may be the end of Big10 season or during March Madness that would be the earliest for any resolution.
Gunether Jr. claimed in his press conference (and cited by the judge) that OSCR was running parallel with whatever the DIA had concocted. So it is allegedly at least 3 weeks in. If they are even proceeding.
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He was dismissed by Florida after the arrest. Then got the felony charges dropped in a plea deal. Then enrolled at another school.
UAB was the landing spot.
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https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/college-basketball-rankings-decision-to-have-terrence-shannon-playing-for-illinois-lies-with-brad-underwood/amp/
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I obviously have made clear that I personally don’t feel super good about Shannon playing right now.
That said, I don’t buy Parrish’s argument at all. He says “no federal judge is in charge of a college program’s rotation” - but until last week, no federal judge was in charge of our program’s roster either, and here we are. Could Underwood have sat him and risked another lawsuit or being held in contempt of court? Sure, I suppose so, but I get why we didn’t.
I found the judge’s ruling to be pretty shaky, but it doesn’t matter what I think about it - the judge says that holding him out from competition is illegally hurting his value. To continue holding him out would almost certainly lead to a situation where the judge IS dictating the rotation.
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I obviously have made clear that I personally don’t feel super good about Shannon playing right now.
That said, I don’t buy Parrish’s argument at all. He says “no federal judge is in charge of a college program’s rotation” - but until last week, no federal judge was in charge of our program’s roster either, and here we are. Could Underwood have sat him and risked another lawsuit or being held in contempt of court? Sure, I suppose so, but I get why we didn’t.
I found the judge’s ruling to be pretty shaky, but it doesn’t matter what I think about it - the judge says that holding him out from competition is illegally hurting his value. To continue holding him out would almost certainly lead to a situation where the judge IS dictating the rotation.
The only thing that is shaky here is that Illinois failed to follow the OSCR process that was supposed to run "parallel" with the DIA process (per Guenther Jr.'s reps in the presser, which were cited by the judge).
Custard and Mn may say Illinois was playing 4 D chess so TSJ would have an avenue to sue and the decision about him playing taken out of its hands.
If the OSCR process was followed, odds are he never would have suspended given the logistical difficulties in investigating a claim that happened in Kansas with a non-student.
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"The KU players who were with Plaintiff that night were not interviewed until after criminal
charges were filed. (Id. at 5)."
From the TRO, which would appear to indicate that the grand jury was not given information from a person who was said to be standing next to, if I read the detective's affidavit correctly, TSJ.
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"The KU players who were with Plaintiff that night were not interviewed until after criminal
charges were filed. (Id. at 5)."
From the TRO, which would appear to indicate that the grand jury was not given information from a person who was said to be standing next to, if I read the detective's affidavit correctly, TSJ.
I did not think the Lawrence DA went before the grand jury, which is why there was a complaint filed and a preliminary hearing set to determine if there was sufficient evidence to proceed in the criminal matter.
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There was no grand jury, there won't be, and no charges have even been filed. That would potentially happen at the preliminary hearing on the 23rd of Feb.
So far, a complaint was filed, an arrest warrant was issued, and TJ surrendered.
Despite not being a threat to anyone and not being a flight risk, Shannon was required to post bail.
I would guess suspects with lesser means at their disposal rot in jail, giving the police and DA leverage to extract false confessions / make deals.
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My mistake then, .......
but one would think the DA's office could find time to travel 1 1/2 miles to KU sometime within a period of 2+ months to interview the guy who is alleged to be standing next to TSJ.
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My mistake then, .......
but one would think the DA's office could find time to travel 1 1/2 miles to KU sometime within a period of 2+ months to interview the guy who is alleged to be standing next to TSJ.
The DA in Lawrence interviewed at least one KU basketball player on or about Jan 3. I believe it was the transfer from TT?
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The DA in Lawrence interviewed at least one KU basketball player on or about Jan 3. I believe it was the transfer from TT?
My mistake again. Lol
Close to 4 months to interview a guy 1 1/2 miles down the road.
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Nm.
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https://twitter.com/mitchgilfillan/status/1749574589582032933
The dude from the IlliniBoard podcast has the rundown on Kansas law on grand juries and preliminary hearings....
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If the OSCR process was followed, odds are he never would have suspended given the logistical difficulties in investigating a claim that happened in Kansas with a non-student.
No chance they put him on the floor after being arrested for rape before the OSCR process ended. And no chance they’d put him out there after it ended unless the case had been resolved. They couldn’t risk it in the court of public opinion without that TRO/injunction in place. No wonder you’re so mad at the university and the process if you believe it was all this simple.
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No chance they put him on the floor after being arrested for rape before the OSCR process ended. And no chance they’d put him out there after it ended unless the case had been resolved. They couldn’t risk it in the court of public opinion without that TRO/injunction in place. No wonder you’re so mad at the university and the process if you believe it was all this simple.
Then they would have the same result as now.
I am not sure they would punish him without an actual finding.
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No chance they put him on the floor after being arrested for rape before the OSCR process ended. And no chance they’d put him out there after it ended unless the case had been resolved. They couldn’t risk it in the court of public opinion without that TRO/injunction in place. No wonder you’re so mad at the university and the process if you believe it was all this simple.
If the OSCR process was proceeding, it would have been mentioned in the opinion. The opinion stated that TSJ was only notified on 1/5 that an OSCR investigation had started. Not quite running parallel with the DIA process as Guenther Jr. falsely represented in his press conference you and others were so enamored with. So they waited to even start it, violated this kid's rights, made him retain additional counsel, got sued, and got their asses kicked.
I'm not mad. It really doesn't matter to me if he plays or not. I'm just noting how incompetent these idiots are, and how Guenther Jr.
flat out lied in that press conference (about a ton of things) and you saps ate it up.
You think these idiots are playing 4 D Chess. They aren't.
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Then they would have the same result as now.
I am not sure they would punish him without an actual finding.
Odds are if they started the investigation when the cop was told what was going to happen, they would have found out quick that they probably are not going to be able to get far in any investigation and have to drop the whole thing or let it sit until the preliminary hearing.
Instead they apparently, and intentionally per Custard, violated a student-athlete's Constitutional rights for PR purposes.
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(https://gifdb.com/images/high/are-you-kidding-me-simon-cowell-face-palm-ohkutxu4sziboqp6.gif)
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(https://gifdb.com/images/high/are-you-kidding-me-simon-cowell-face-palm-ohkutxu4sziboqp6.gif)
Wait until the motion for his attorneys' fees comes!
The names change down there every decade, or less, but the institutional issues never seem to go away.
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Parrish's point is part of why a TRO and injunction are improper. He has no right to play at all.
I personally do not think he should be playing but it's hard to fault Brad for processes out of his control.
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Parrish's point is part of why a TRO and injunction are improper. He has no right to play at all.
I personally do not think he should be playing but it's hard to fault Brad for processes out of his control.
Apparently he does have a right to play, according to a federal court judge applying case law.
And your opinion that he should not be playing is based on?
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Parrish's point is part of why a TRO and injunction are improper. He has no right to play at all.
I personally do not think he should be playing but it's hard to fault Brad for processes out of his control.
This is pretty much exactly where I’m at. I think he shouldn’t be playing and I think it’s kind of crazy that a judge said we cannot suspend him - but it’s what the judge thinks, not what I (or Underwood, or Whitman) thinks that matters here.
That said, people going after Underwood for playing him make no sense to me. It’s his hide on the line if he openly contradicts a judge’s order, and suddenly refusing to play him is a de facto suspension. It seems like he might be personally vulnerable if he defied the judge like that.
I gotta say I find it interesting how many Illini fans are sudden due process purists. I don’t remember Illini fans being mad about how Iowa violated Pierre Pierce’s Constitutional rights, or arguing there’s no way Alabama should be able to suspend Brandon Miller. I remember a lot of Illini fans with sentiments directly opposed to those though.
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Brad doesn't have to play him if he doesn't want to. He can DNP him, and there is nothing anyone can do about it. He has control of the playing time of his roster.
With that being said, if I were him and he were available to play (not suspended), I would play him. But he doesn't have to.
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Brad doesn't have to play him if he doesn't want to. He can DNP him, and there is nothing anyone can do about it. He has control of the playing time of his roster.
With that being said, if I were him and he were available to play (not suspended), I would play him. But he doesn't have to.
He and the university would have a lawsuit against them before they went to sleep the night they DNP’d him. Have no idea if contempt would be realistic in that situation but that’d be pretty open defiance of a ruling from a federal judge - in general, seems like a bad idea.
Maybe that’s worth it, I have no idea, but there’s no question that if the justification is that him being suspended and not given the chance to defend himself is unfairly harming his value, a DNP accomplishes the same thing.
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He and the university would have a lawsuit against them before they went to sleep the night they DNP’d him. Have no idea if contempt would be realistic in that situation but that’d be pretty open defiance of a ruling from a federal judge - in general, seems like a bad idea.
Maybe that’s worth it, I have no idea, but there’s no question that if the justification is that him being suspended is unfairly harming his value, a DNP accomplishes the same thing.
Well, then that's a lawsuit that Brad should fight, and win.
I'm all for players having more control, and getting paid, and etc. But ultimately, a coach should have total control over who he chooses to play in a game. If he doesn't want to play TSJ, he shouldn't have to. If he doesn't want to play Coleman Hawkins, he shouldn't have to.
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The judge said he shouldn't be suspended. That doesn't mandate actual playing time, granted by the coach.
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Apparently he does have a right to play, according to a federal court judge applying case law.
The Judge didn't say there is a right to play college basketball. My take is she said Terrence Shannon has earned or acquired property and liberty interests in playing basketball at UI. She didn't use those exact words.
Her reasoning and citations can be found in her ruling.
I have a copy of the ruling. Maybe there is a hassle free file sharing site where I could upload it?
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Pierce was suspended by Iowa, but no clue if the school followed its policies at the time or not. I note that Wikipedia cites an ESPN article which notes that Iowa's actions were "atypical, as the school usually waits for the legal process to play out before making a decision, but the school took swift action because of the severity of the charge." He pled guilty to a lesser charge and judgment was deferred. He sat out a year after the plea bargain. He then came back and played. He then got arrested after a domestic violence incident and was kicked off the team. He was convicted and served time.
The allegations against Pierce were particularly nasty in nature.
As for Miller, no charges were ever filed against him in connection with the murder. It appears he was truthful with the cops, whereas others were not, and his version of events matched video and witness statements.
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The Judge didn't say there is a right to play college basketball. My take is she said Terrence Shannon has earned or acquired property and liberty interests in playing basketball at UI. She didn't use those exact words.
Her reasoning and citations can be found in her ruling.
I have a copy of the ruling. Maybe there is a hassle free file sharing site where I could upload it?
She cited 2 cases that preventing a kid from "competition" created irreparable harm. Other courts have held that preventing student-athletes from competition creates an irreparable harm for which there is no adequate legal remedy. See Ganden v. NCAA, 1996 WL 680000, at *6 (N.D. Ill. Nov. 21, 1996)....see also Hutsonville Cmty. Unit Sch. Dist. No. 1 v. Illinois High Sch. Ass’n, 195 N.E.3d 662, 666-667 (5th Dist. 2021)(high school senior athlete granted TRO “because failure to compete for a year was the type of injury that could not be corrected by monetary judgment”)..
We just had some All-Conference kid at a Hinsdale HS put back on a basketball team after the kid sued because he was not picked for the team because he had complained about a coach harassing him. Granted, the school caved.
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The judge said he shouldn't be suspended. That doesn't mandate actual playing time, granted by the coach.
This is correct. But she also held
The obligations of Defendants pursuant to this Order are to be construed as broadly as possible.
Granted, no judge is going to weigh that he needs to play x minutes versus y minutes. But playing no minutes might lead to contempt of court finding absent a good explanation other than "Fuck you, judge." Brad Underwood does not want to have to deal with that shit.
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How about instead of blaming a federal court judge, how about this? If you are going to discipline him, how about following your own fucking policies. It really is not that tough, except for the people in Champaign, apparently.
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How about following your own fucking policies. It really is not that tough, except for the people in Champaign, apparently.
and about most of our government, our social media outlets, our major corporations.....just about covers it...
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This is correct. But she also held
Granted, no judge is going to weigh that he needs to play x minutes versus y minutes. But playing no minutes might lead to contempt of court finding absent a good explanation other than "Fuck you, judge." Brad Underwood does not want to have to deal with that shit.
Understood, and I would guess that Brad is more than willing to play him. And sure, I would imagine that he doesn't want to deal with any contempt possibilities.
With that being said, if Brad wanted to not play him, I still think it should be up to him. I don't think any court should have jurisdiction over a coach and how he chooses to handle his team on a given game day. The player is available. Brad should have full control on how he decides to deal with it.
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Well, then that's a lawsuit that Brad should fight, and win.
I'm all for players having more control, and getting paid, and etc. But ultimately, a coach should have total control over who he chooses to play in a game. If he doesn't want to play TSJ, he shouldn't have to. If he doesn't want to play Coleman Hawkins, he shouldn't have to.
I agree with you, but I also would’ve thought that if Whitman wanted to suspend TSJ from basketball without some OSCR trial for missing practice or fighting a teammate or smoking weed or being late to the team bus he should be able to, but a federal judge declared that that unfairly hurts his value. Refusing to play him accomplishes the same thing.
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and about most of our government, our social media outlets, our major corporations.....just about covers it...
Most of our government has unions to handle this shit. I'd say that major corporations have dealt with this shit for so long they probably have it down. Always exceptions.
Media? Cannot even fathom a guess.
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The judge said he shouldn't be suspended. That doesn't mandate actual playing time, granted by the coach.
The judge said suspending him without essentially holding a trial for him unfairly hurt his value because he is an NBA prospect. She even cited the fact that a lot of the games remaining are on national TV.
Refusing to play him is open defiance of her order.
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It seems like there has to be a property or liberty interest before being deprived sans due process causes irreparable harm without other legal recourses?
Some kid with zero athletic talent or basketball skills can't sue claiming he is being denied his right to play ball. Well, he can, but he'll lose.
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Understood, and I would guess that Brad is more than willing to play him. And sure, I would imagine that he doesn't want to deal with any contempt possibilities.
With that being said, if Brad wanted to not play him, I still think it should be up to him. I don't think any court should have jurisdiction over a coach and how he chooses to handle his team on a given game day. The player is available. Brad should have full control on how he decides to deal with it.
If Brad can explain why he is doing it, that has nothing to do with those above his pay scale fucking this up, have at it.
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I mean, what the fuck is next. Suppose some player gets pissed at the amount he's playing and decides to run to a judge and bitch about it? Can a judge then come back and say, "Brad, you need to play Dick Assman a minimum of 20 minutes per game for the next 5 games to give this individual a chance to maximize his earning potential."
What the fuck are we doing here.
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It seems like there has to be a property or liberty interest before being deprived sans due process causes irreparable harm without other legal recourses?
Some kid with zero athletic talent or basketball skills can't sue claiming he is being denied his right to play ball. Well, he can, but he'll lose.
Nichi, they have a policy. They failed to follow it. Look at the ROTC kid at Purdue. It is the case she relied upon.
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The judge said suspending him without essentially holding a trial for him unfairly hurt his value because he is an NBA prospect. She even cited the fact that a lot of the games remaining are on national TV.
Refusing to play him is open defiance of her order.
I suppose. But Brad should have control over how he runs games. It's his fucking job.
I think he would be crazy not to play him. But if he doesn't want to, he shouldn't have to.
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I mean, what the fuck is next. Suppose some player gets pissed at the amount he's playing and decides to run to a judge and bitch about it? Can a judge then come back and say, "Brad, you need to play Dick Assman a minimum of 20 minutes per game for the next 5 games to give this individual a chance to maximize his earning potential."
What the fuck are we doing here.
I agree with you, but it doesn’t matter what I think.
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I mean, what the fuck is next. Suppose some player gets pissed at the amount he's playing and decides to run to a judge and bitch about it? Can a judge then come back and say, "Brad, you need to play Dick Assman a minimum of 20 minutes per game for the next 5 games to give this individual a chance to maximize his earning potential."
What the fuck are we doing here.
The reason is why he isn't playing. Shannon was not playing because he was suspended for nothing to do with basketball. Illinois has fucking rules. They are printed in a book. They failed to follow them despite shithead Guenther Jr. waxing poetic about them in his press conference. They follow the rules, Shannon has no bitch.
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I agree with you, but it doesn’t matter what I think.
Yeah, it doesn't matter what any of us think, lol. It's definitely a tricky situation. And it didn't help that shit apparently wasn't handled correctly from the jump here.
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The reason is why he isn't playing. Shannon was not playing because he was suspended for nothing to do with basketball. Illinois has fucking rules. They are printed in a book. They failed to follow them despite shithead Guenther Jr. waxing poetic about them in his press conference. They follow the rules, Shannon has no bitch.
I understand that part. It's a clusterfuck for sure.
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I understand that part. It's a clusterfuck for sure.
Yep
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Nichi, they have a policy. They failed to follow it. Look at the ROTC kid at Purdue. It is the case she relied upon.
I understand all that. I agree with most of your logic. There is still no general right to play college basketball. That is something that is earned.
Shannon's lawyers made a case that once earned, it can become both a property and liberty interest. Not their exact words, but the gist.
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I understand all that. I agree with most of your logic. There is still no general right to play college basketball. That is something that is earned.
Shannon's lawyers made a case that once earned, it can become both a property and liberty interest. Not their exact words, but the gist.
Didn't he sign a scholarship contract to play basketball? Yes.
Plaintiff also invokes his scholarship contract, which Illinois may not terminate unless Plaintiff is convicted of a crime involving sexual misconduct, pleads guilty or no contest to such a crime, or is found responsible for the same by a “formal disciplinary action,” none of which has happened. (Id. at 10).
Alternatively, Count II seeks declaratory and injunctive relief against Illinois under Plaintiff’s scholarship contract. (Id. at 26-29).
Because this is in the higher education context, however, “any property interest is a matter of contract between the student and the university.” Purdue University, 928 F.3d at 659 (citing Bissessur v. Ind. Univ. Bd. Of Trs., 581 F.3d 599, 601 (7th Cir. 2009)). Therefore, to demonstrate that he possesses the requisite property interest, a student must “do more than show he has a contract with the university; he must establish that the contract entitled him to a specific right that the university allegedly took.” Id.
Contracts between universities and students can come from a variety of sources. Gociman v. Loyola University of Chicago, 41 F.4th 873, 883 (7th Cir. 2022). The relevant sources include student catalogs, policies, bulletins, and other publications. Id. For example, in Stiles v. Brown, No. 1:21-cv-00497 (D. R.I. January 25, 2022), a student sought a preliminary injunction after he was accused of sexual assault, and the university subsequently suspended the student from sports and school prior to completing its Title IX investigation. (Doc. 11-1 at 53.) The court analyzed the student’s request for a preliminary injunction under a contract theory and found that the student policy imposed terms on the university including the presumption of innocence, meaningful participation in the process, and the opportunity to submit a “relevant response.” (Id. at 55.) The district court granted the player a preliminary injunction, enjoining the university from continuing the suspension after finding that the student was likely to succeed on his claim. (Id. at 58.) The district court emphasized that “the university has failed to meet [the student’s] reasonable expectations” of the terms of the relevant contract. (alterations in original).
Plaintiff has, therefore, demonstrated some likelihood of success that his reliance on these contractual terms created a legitimate claim of entitlement to not be suspended from the team without good cause. See, e.g., Radwan v. Manuel, 55 F.4th 101, 126 (finding a property interest in a student-athlete’s athletic scholarship where she demonstrated a reliance and dependence on her contractual terms).
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Yes. The property interest was acquired. Not inherent.
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Brad Underwood, unless he’s insane, is 100% going to defer to his bosses in regards to playing Shannon.
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Yes. The property interest was acquired. Not inherent.
Ok. It was acquired before he showed up (unless he signed after enrolling). Not even you have an inherent interest to play for the Illini. It is not in the Bill of Rights or amendments to the US Constitution.
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Brad Underwood, unless he’s insane, is 100% going to defer to his bosses in regards to playing Shannon.
Maybe he would fight the judge behind the Springfield Pizza Hut.
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Maybe he would fight the judge behind the Springfield Pizza Hut.
I bet he would. I wanted him to beat the shit out of Mark Smith.
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I bet he would. I wanted him to beat the shit out of Mark Smith.
The treadmill took care of that
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Edwardsville judge has retroactively granted Mark Smith 3-5 more minutes effective immediately.
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Edwardsville judge has retroactively granted Mark Smith 3-5 more minutes effective immediately.
I wouldn’t be surprised if he didn’t though…
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How about instead of blaming a federal court judge, how about this? If you are going to discipline him, how about following your own fucking policies. It really is not that tough, except for the people in Champaign, apparently.
Not every violation of a policy is capable of remediation or necessarily should be remedied.
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Apparently the first hearing has been pushed back to May.
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Not every violation of a policy is capable of remediation or necessarily should be remedied.
Apparently procedural due process violations can be remedied.
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Apparently the first hearing has been pushed back to May.
Works for the season and TSJ draft chances.
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Apparently the first hearing has been pushed back to May.
Just more confirmation that he'll be with us the rest of the year
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Apparently a DA in Kansas still has the ability to indict via a grand jury notwithstanding the filing of the complaint and scheduling of a preliminary hearing.
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I would be curious to see how the Illini fandom reacts if Shannon plays for us the rest of the year and then pleads down to a misdemeanor sexual battery (which would result in him being dismissed from the team if he took it right now) after the season’s over.
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I would be curious to see how the Illini fandom reacts if Shannon plays for us the rest of the year and then pleads down to a misdemeanor sexual battery (which would result in him being dismissed from the team if he took it right now) after the season’s over.
I think you know the answer and are already fantasizing about lambasting people online for their bad takes.
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I think you know the answer and are already fantasizing about lambasting people online for their bad takes.
I sense it’s much like Tempo is gonna be if the Bears draft Caleb Williams and he struggles some…
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I think you know the answer and are already fantasizing about lambasting people online for their bad takes.
Despite your predictable handwringing about human decency - from what I can tell, the worst offense there is on this board - I don’t look forward to our fans showing their ass like that at all. It’s embarrassing. Mostly I hope the charges are just dropped because he’s innocent and it never comes to that at all.
Couldn’t let a post go by without bein’ a dipshit though, I get it.
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To me, the self-righteous people trying to manage how the rest of the fanbase thinks and feels about this are almost as annoying as the ones who only care about the basketball eligibility aspect of TSJ’s situation. If that makes me an enemy of human decency, so be it.
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I wonder how often innocent people accept a misdemeanor plea deal when mounting a felony defense may not be financially, or otherwise, feasible ?
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I wonder how often innocent people accept a misdemeanor plea deal when mounting a felony defense may not be financially, or otherwise, feasible ?
It’d be interesting if Spark got accused of some bullshit charges and lost everything. See how he acts then and get back to us…
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“To me, the decent people upset that their fellow fans are being so shameless and gross are almost as bad as the shameless people themselves” is a pretty ugly take, but to be expected, obviously. It’s how you react to similar arguments about politics as well. Being an outspoken person wanting others to do the right thing is just as bad as being an outspoken person wanting others to do the wrong thing for personal gain.
It’s far more acceptable here to call someone a fucking retard faggot and say you’ll physically hurt a trans person than to say hey maybe we should be decent people and not toss our values out the window for basketball, and you personally built that culture.
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It’d be interesting if Spark got accused of some bullshit charges and lost everything. See how he acts then and get back to us…
I certainly wouldn’t expect any of the people here to defend me - after all, I don’t play for Illinois basketball so you don’t personally gain anything from it.
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I certainly wouldn’t expect any of the people here to defend me - after all, I don’t play for Illinois basketball so you don’t personally gain anything from it.
Oh you wouldn’t go parading around preaching your innocence?! That poor victim! How dare you plead your innocence to people. I mean there’d be no reason to doubt her until trial, right?!
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Off to a good start today, I see.
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Oh you wouldn’t go parading around preaching your innocence?! That poor victim! How dare you plead your innocence to people. I mean there’d be no reason to doubt her until trial, right?!
Huh? Of course I’d tell you I was innocent. People profess to be innocent most times they’re charged with a crime (even often when they are guilty of it, believe it or not!)
You have nothing to personally gain from that though, so you wouldn’t give a shit. Just like you didn’t give a shit about any of the previous times a team suspended a player before the legal process was complete.
I have never one time said or implied that he is guilty of the crime. I have no idea if he is guilty - the evidence that his guilt or innocence hinges on simply isn’t available to me. There could be no reason to doubt her, or there could be a ton of reason to doubt her. Neither you nor I have any possible way to know that, but despite that one of us is completely sure about the facts of the case.
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I would be curious to see how the Illini fandom reacts if Shannon plays for us the rest of the year and then pleads down to a misdemeanor sexual battery (which would result in him being dismissed from the team if he took it right now) after the season’s over.
If that happens maybe they will blame the university for not taking its own policies, processes, and procedures seriously enough to actually follow them?
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Huh? Of course I’d tell you I was innocent. People profess to be innocent most times they’re charged with a crime (even often when they are guilty of it, believe it or not!)
You have nothing to personally gain from that though, so you wouldn’t give a shit. Just like you didn’t give a shit about any of the previous times a team suspended a player before the legal process was complete.
I have never one time said or implied that he is guilty of the crime. I have no idea if he is guilty - the evidence that his guilt or innocence hinges on simply isn’t available to me. There could be no reason to doubt her, or there could be a ton of reason to doubt her. Neither you nor I have any possible way to know that, but despite that one of us is completely sure about the facts of the case.
Despite this, you do not believe he should be allowed to play. This despite the evidence that the university failed to undertake an investigation of the allegations, allow him access to any such evidence, and allow him the ability to defend himself. Glad to see you are comfortable being the jury and executioner here despite your lack of knowledge of the underlying facts.
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I wonder how often innocent people accept a misdemeanor plea deal when mounting a felony defense may not be financially, or otherwise, feasible ?
I question how often you wonder this!
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I question how often you wonder this!
When I want to, but not when I don't want to.
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When I want to, but not when I don't want to.
At least you are honest about it!
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This whole situation is now a clusterfck and has been poorly managed by the DA, and the UI.
No, I don't think on face value of there being felony rape charges filed he should be playing and representing UI publicly.
Obviously many disagree.
I have no opinion of the ultimate validity of the charges and except for the self anointed Cousin Vinnie's here-neither do any of us.
I would like to know if any of you work anywhere on planet earth, especially where the relationship with and perception of the public was central, where you would not be on leave with pay right now, at a minimum, until it is resolved.
That said, I am not sure that the prelim hearing being delayed until May is a positive. The draft is in June.
If this is not resolved in his favor by then he will still be in same situation as he is now.
As much as people wish to think that what UI does with him matters- the legal process is the primary determining factor for his career.
And even then his life isn't ruined as people claim if he has to go the FA route later assuming he is cleared of felony charges.
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This whole situation is now a clusterfck and has been poorly managed by the DA, and the UI.
No, I don't think on face value of there being felony rape charges filed he should be playing and representing UI publicly.
Obviously many disagree.
I have no opinion of the ultimate validity of the charges and except for the self anointed Cousin Vinnie's here-neither do any of us.
I would like to know if any of you work anywhere on planet earth, especially where the relationship with and perception of the public was central, where you would not be on leave with pay right now, at a minimum, until it is resolved.
That said, I am not sure that the prelim hearing being delayed until May is a positive. The draft is in June.
If this is not resolved in his favor by then he will still be in same situation as he is now.
As much as people wish to think that what UI does with him matters- the legal process is the primary determining factor for his career.
And even then his life isn't ruined as people claim if he has to go the FA route later assuming he is cleared of felony charges.
If the employer followed the Title VII guidelines, it would be fine. If not....
https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/enforcement-guidance-consideration-arrest-and-conviction-records-employment-decisions
The fact of an arrest does not establish that criminal conduct has occurred.101 Arrests are not proof of criminal conduct. Many arrests do not result in criminal charges, or the charges are dismissed.102 Even if an individual is charged and subsequently prosecuted, he is presumed innocent unless proven guilty.103
An arrest, however, may in some circumstances trigger an inquiry into whether the conduct underlying the arrest justifies an adverse employment action. Title VII calls for a fact-based analysis to determine if an exclusionary policy or practice is job related and consistent with business necessity. Therefore, an exclusion based on an arrest, in itself, is not job related and consistent with business necessity.
Another reason for employers not to rely on arrest records is that they may not report the final disposition of the arrest (e.g., not prosecuted, convicted, or acquitted). As documented in Section III.A., supra, the DOJ/BJS reported that many arrest records in the FBI's III database and state criminal record repositories are not associated with final dispositions.104 Arrest records also may include inaccuracies or may continue to be reported even if expunged or sealed.105
Example 3: Arrest Record Is Not Grounds for Exclusion. Mervin and Karen, a middle-aged African American couple, are driving to church in a predominantly white town. An officer stops them and interrogates them about their destination. When Mervin becomes annoyed and comments that his offense is simply "driving while Black," the officer arrests him for disorderly conduct. The prosecutor decides not to file charges against Mervin, but the arrest remains in the police department's database and is reported in a background check when Mervin applies with his employer of fifteen years for a promotion to an executive position. The employer's practice is to deny such promotions to individuals with arrest records, even without a conviction, because it views an arrest record as an indicator of untrustworthiness and irresponsibility. If Mervin filed a Title VII charge based on these facts, and disparate impact based on race were established, the EEOC would find reasonable cause to believe that his employer violated Title VII.
Although an arrest record standing alone may not be used to deny an employment opportunity, an employer may make an employment decision based on the conduct underlying the arrest if the conduct makes the individual unfit for the position in question. The conduct, not the arrest, is relevant for employment purposes.
Example 4: Employer's Inquiry into Conduct Underlying Arrest. Andrew, a Latino man, worked as an assistant principal in Elementary School for several years. After several ten and eleven-year-old girls attending the school accused him of touching them inappropriately on the chest, Andrew was arrested and charged with several counts of endangering the welfare of children and sexual abuse. Elementary School has a policy that requires suspension or termination of any employee who the school believes engaged in conduct that impacts the health or safety of the students. After learning of the accusations, the school immediately places Andrew on unpaid administrative leave pending an investigation. In the course of its investigation, the school provides Andrew a chance to explain the events and circumstances that led to his arrest. Andrew denies the allegations, saying that he may have brushed up against the girls in the crowded hallways or lunchroom, but that he doesn't really remember the incidents and does not have regular contact with any of the girls. The school also talks with the girls, and several of them recount touching in crowded situations. The school does not find Andrew's explanation credible. Based on Andrew's conduct, the school terminates his employment pursuant to its policy.
Andrew challenges the policy as discriminatory under Title VII. He asserts that it has a disparate impact based on national origin and that his employer may not suspend or terminate him based solely on an arrest without a conviction because he is innocent until proven guilty. After confirming that an arrest policy would have a disparate impact based on national origin, the EEOC concludes that no discrimination occurred. The school's policy is linked to conduct that is relevant to the particular jobs at issue, and the exclusion is made based on descriptions of the underlying conduct, not the fact of the arrest. The Commission finds no reasonable cause to believe Title VII was violated.
(Emphasis added.)
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I am pretty well versed with how this works. I run a $45 million at will entity with 450 employees which is monitored and audited by both federal and state, and we have a team of lawyers, and we unfortunately deal with these scenarios often. Agree there are no absolutes.
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I am pretty well versed with how this works. I run a $45 million at will entity with 450 employees which is monitored and audited by both federal and state, and we have a team of lawyers, and we unfortunately deal with these scenarios often. Agree there are no absolutes.
Do you cheat on your taxes?
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Do you cheat on your taxes?
LOL. I am not rich enough to get away with cheating.
My entity has spotless audits. We have a team of financial oversight staff also.
Unfortunately administration of any large organization anymore is more legal risk management activity and increasingly less mission and practice.
That is why I am happily retiring.
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LOL. I am not rich enough to get away with cheating.
My entity has spotless audits. We have a team of financial oversight staff also.
Unfortunately administration of any large organization anymore is more legal risk management activity and increasingly less mission and practice.
That is why I am happily retiring.
Haha, that was just a tribute to our old buddy Champaign Transplant.
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Haha, that was just a tribute to our old buddy Champaign Transplant.
I don't know or recall all the personalities here. LOL.
Hard enough to keep up with the present ones.
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I don't know or recall all the personalities here. LOL.
Hard enough to keep up with the present ones.
He was on the old board. He thought of himself as a big deal. Somehow it came up that he got audited and caught multiple times fucking up on his taxes. Blamed it on bad accountants lol.
He was something. Others probably can fill in some gaps.
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LOL. I am not rich enough to get away with cheating.
My entity has spotless audits. We have a team of financial oversight staff also.
Unfortunately administration of any large organization anymore is more legal risk management activity and increasingly less mission and practice.
That is why I am happily retiring.
Enjoy your retirement.
And yes, Jobu is right about Champaign Transplant and the running narrative on his taxes.
How are you with pixelated Asian porn ?
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I am pretty well versed with how this works. I run a $45 million at will entity with 450 employees which is monitored and audited by both federal and state, and we have a team of lawyers, and we unfortunately deal with these scenarios often. Agree there are no absolutes.
Well, it certainly did not sound like it in that post.
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Is that a thing??
Lol.
I am so out of the loop.
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Do you cheat on your taxes?
Lktransplant.
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He was on the old board. He thought of himself as a big deal. Somehow it came up that he got audited and caught multiple times fucking up on his taxes. Blamed it on bad accountants lol.
He was something. Others probably can fill in some gaps.
He admitted he had a thing for white women. And only white women.
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Well, it certainly did not sound like it in that post.
Maybe you should volunteer your consultation to UI.
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Enjoy your retirement.
And yes, Jobu is right about Champaign Transplant and the running narrative on his taxes.
How are you with pixelated Asian porn ?
I was told by the asshole over there to stop mentioning "pixelated Asian porn."
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Maybe you should volunteer your consultation to UI.
I would clean house as much as I could.
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I don't know or recall all the personalities here. LOL.
Hard enough to keep up with the present ones.
There are only 6 of us and 50 mults, of which Tempo owns 45.
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I was told by the asshole over there to stop mentioning "pixelated Asian porn."
Tyler fucking Jackson. lol
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Tyler fucking Jackson. lol
I'm going to be chuckling all day thinking about Champaign Transplant. That dude just added fuel to every fire. Might drive to River Forest to see if I see him walking around.
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I would clean house as much as I could.
Lol. I would tend to agree from what I have seen here.
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Lol. I would tend to agree from what I have seen here.
ThePAMan might consider hiring you as a consultant. But then again he might not.
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ThePAMan might consider hiring you as a consultant. But then again he might not.
LKDog and I would bring a Natty for sports people care about within 5 years.
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I'm going to be chuckling all day thinking about Champaign Transplant. That dude just added fuel to every fire. Might drive to River Forest to see if I see him walking around.
If he couldn't get his tax shit figured out, he might be living in a tent somewhere
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I wonder how often innocent people accept a misdemeanor plea deal when mounting a felony defense may not be financially, or otherwise, feasible ?
I am sure it happens all the time, especially when they can't even afford bail and are rotting in jail. Plead down and get sentenced to time served?
In a case like this, plead down and forfeit whatever cash bail was posted?
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The Champaign Transplant tax thing was funny and a totally unforced error. He just volunteered that stuff!
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https://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/39378695/five-nhl-players-leave-amid-sexual-assault-inquiry
Wonder what the CBA provides in such instances.