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rank our last 5 coaches

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spark mandrill

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Re: rank our last 5 coaches
« Reply #45 on: June 21, 2023, 05:22:17 PM »
Hard to know.

Once Weber got buy-in from those guys, he kind of inherited a near perfect roster for the motion system he wanted to run.  And he'd shown the ability to coach that system well with lower-level guys, but the system kind of relies on all the guys on the court being unselfish, good passers (all three starting guards he inherited played point guard in the NBA), good shooters etc. and getting full buy-in from everybody.  It was like just getting a huge talent infusion to the system he was already running well - and it still took some time, as I'm sure you remember.

It's hard to know if Underwood would've had that kind of success, he's mostly run a totally different offense that I don't think would've fit those 03-05 guys as well.

I do think Underwood (at least, the current Underwood in 2023) would've done a hell of a lot better here after Dee Brown graduated than Weber did.
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ThePAMan

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Re: rank our last 5 coaches
« Reply #46 on: June 21, 2023, 05:26:27 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on June 21, 2023, 05:22:17 PM
I do think Underwood (at least, the current Underwood in 2023) would've done a hell of a lot better here after Dee Brown graduated than Weber did.

True, but that is not really saying a lot, is it?

Appreciate the analysis above.
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ThePAMan

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Re: rank our last 5 coaches
« Reply #47 on: June 21, 2023, 05:27:05 PM »
Quote from: Judge Judy on June 21, 2023, 05:07:35 PM
Probably.

I do not know, man. I think that is a tough call. But I do appreciate that Underachiever can change certain things up when they are not working.
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Judge Judy

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Re: rank our last 5 coaches
« Reply #48 on: June 21, 2023, 05:30:51 PM »
Quote from: ThePAMan on June 21, 2023, 05:27:05 PM
I do not know, man. I think that is a tough call. But I do appreciate that Underachiever can change certain things up when they are not working.

I answered you hypothetical with the same probably you did to mine regarding Painter. There’s absolutely no way to know if Underwood would or would not in your hypothetical. We do know that the Illini fan base WOULD have already turned on Painter after this past season. Especially considering they are with Underwood's results.
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ThePAMan

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Re: rank our last 5 coaches
« Reply #49 on: June 21, 2023, 05:33:50 PM »
Quote from: Judge Judy on June 21, 2023, 05:30:51 PM
I answered you hypothetical with the same probably you did to mine regarding Painter. There’s absolutely no way to know if Underwood would or would not in your hypothetical. We do know that the Illini fan base WOULD have already turned on Painter after this past season. Especially considering they are with Underwood's results.

If Painter was here and flailed in the tourney like Underachiever did with Ayo and Kofi, we would be having the same discussion. 
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Custard

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Re: rank our last 5 coaches
« Reply #50 on: June 21, 2023, 06:33:34 PM »
Painter loses to double digit seeds.
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Reacher

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Re: rank our last 5 coaches
« Reply #51 on: June 21, 2023, 06:54:38 PM »
I’m obviously not a huge Underwood fan (he’s fine), but he’s absolutely better than Weber. However, I think Weber would have done better with Self’s players than Underwood would have. Hard to argue with a near perfect season and coming up just short in a title game against a behemoth that got all the calls and used ineligible players.
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illiniray

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Re: rank our last 5 coaches
« Reply #52 on: June 21, 2023, 08:03:50 PM »
Weber is an idiot, but was smart enough to stay out of Deron's way.
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illiniray

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Re: rank our last 5 coaches
« Reply #53 on: June 21, 2023, 08:46:16 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on June 19, 2023, 12:55:06 PM
Lon gets a lot of credit, rightfully so, because he inherited a mediocre program with an empty cupboard post sanctions and still won with them.  He did get one year of Kiwane.

86-64 (57%) and .500 in conference the five years before he took over - those results would slot in at the bottom of that list of 5 coaches.

Or 107-74 59% the last 6 (post Gill, Bardo, Liberty)

Or 79-43 60% the last 4 (post probation)..

I see no reason to choose the last 4 [edit 5] except to get a lower percentage.

Either way, 59 / 60% was a middling result; which was why Lou was forced to retire.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2023, 10:15:44 AM by illiniray »
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illinicalvin

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Re: rank our last 5 coaches
« Reply #54 on: June 22, 2023, 12:42:12 AM »
Quote from: ThePAMan on June 21, 2023, 04:30:16 PM
Question: Would Underachiever actually have done a better job than Weber had Underachiever inherited Self's players?
So I would vote no on years 1-2 and yes on years 3-on. In this alternate history, for starters I don't think the full roster is there in 04-05 and I'm not sure BU finds better immediate replacement parts.

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Reacher

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Re: rank our last 5 coaches
« Reply #55 on: June 22, 2023, 06:35:22 AM »
Quote from: illinicalvin on June 22, 2023, 12:42:12 AM
So I would vote no on years 1-2 and yes on years 3-on. In this alternate history, for starters I don't think the full roster is there in 04-05 and I'm not sure BU finds better immediate replacement parts.

Agreed.
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frankiew

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Re: rank our last 5 coaches
« Reply #56 on: June 22, 2023, 09:20:58 AM »
Don't take away webers runner up year
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spark mandrill

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Re: rank our last 5 coaches
« Reply #57 on: June 22, 2023, 01:53:31 PM »
Quote from: illiniray on June 21, 2023, 08:46:16 PM
Or 107-74 59% the last 6 (post Gill, Bardo, Liberty)

Or 79-43 60% the last 4 (post probation)..

I see no reason to choose the last 4, except to get a lower percentage.

Either way, 59 / 60% was a middling result; which was why Lou was forced to retire.

Yes, there's no really obvious or logical reason to use four year spans to discuss college sports.

I know you pine for the era these guys could only play three years, but still.
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illiniray

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Re: rank our last 5 coaches
« Reply #58 on: June 22, 2023, 03:23:27 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on June 22, 2023, 01:53:31 PM

I know you pine for the era these guys could only play three years, but still.

Straw man of the decade. I guess when you have nothing else, you can result to complete garbage.

Your arguments in support of Underwood are actually reasonable
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I think there is an emotional attachment to Lon Kruger. He is a nice guy. He coached a fun style. He did a pretty  good job here, not great.  The program was not in a shambles. We had largely recovered from BP and probation
 
I think the real reason Lou had to step down was he was not in good shape with either the upcoming Chicago or Peoria recruiting bonanzas.

Maybe I am harsh calling .609 for a long, 35 year, 1106 game career mediocre. It is clearly not great. I have trouble calling it very good. It's pretty much the bare minimum to be considered competent. A moderate success. Fair to middling. The postseason successes boosted his rep.

LH:
H-S: .650
NMS: .662
UI: .654
OA: .654

LK:
TX-PA:  .468
K-State .638
Florida .565
UI: .628
UNLV: .694
OK-St.: .604
OA: .609

I won't bring up his NBA failure.
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spark mandrill

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Re: rank our last 5 coaches
« Reply #59 on: June 22, 2023, 04:15:04 PM »
Quote from: illiniray on June 22, 2023, 03:23:27 PM
Straw man of the decade. I guess when you have nothing else, you can result to complete garbage.

Your arguments in support of Underwood are actually reasonable
.
I think there is an emotional attachment to Lon Kruger. He is a nice guy. He coached a fun style. He did a pretty  good job here, not great.  The program was not in a shambles. We had largely recovered from BP and probation
 
I think the real reason Lou had to step down was he was not in good shape with either the upcoming Chicago or Peoria recruiting bonanzas.

Maybe I am harsh calling .609 for a long, 35 year, 1106 game career mediocre. It is clearly not great. I have trouble calling it very good. It's pretty much the bare minimum to be considered competent. A moderate success. Fair to middling. The postseason successes boosted his rep.

LH:
H-S: .650
NMS: .662
UI: .654
OA: .654

LK:
TX-PA:  .468
K-State .638
Florida .565
UI: .628
UNLV: .694
OK-St.: .604
OA: .609

I won't bring up his NBA failure.

As long as you simply ignore the state of the program when he took it over - something he did at three separate schools - your takes are totally reasonable.

Back here in the real world though, where he took over a nearly empty cupboard and a mediocre program that had won one tournament game in the previous 6 seasons after sanctions, he did a spectacular job and really set the table for one of the very best runs in our program's history.

It's simply revisionist history.  It's the EXACT same logic people are using right now about Underwood.  Just ignore all context.

I've gotta just laugh at the "why use 4 years?" attitude.  One single second of thought would lead you to the why.
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