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rank our last 5 coaches

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spark mandrill

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Re: rank our last 5 coaches
« Reply #30 on: June 21, 2023, 08:07:41 AM »
Quote from: Lkdog on June 20, 2023, 10:41:39 AM
I ran into a pretty high level AAU club director this week. He said he has known Underwood for decades since his juco coaching days.
Thinks the present roster issue at PG is pretty crazy. Says what you see from Underwood is pretty accurate. LOL.

FWIW I would have to go:

Self
Kruger
Weber
Underwood
Groce

Both UW and Weber pretty flawed interpersonally. Both had some high peaks here.
Overall total coaching record Weber much better when you factor in NCAA tourney, but Underwood has time to turn it around.

It's pretty hard to fight against the tide when you put a guy who inherited a top-10 program and left a top-75ish program ahead of a guy who inherited maybe a top-75 program and currently has built a top-25ish program.

There's simply no reasonable justification for that IMO.  Weber inherited the best this program has ever been and left a decade of mediocrity in his wake, he was a disaster.  Underwood inherited the result of that decade of mediocrity, quickly made us nationally relevant again, and has already been turned on.
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Judge Judy

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Re: rank our last 5 coaches
« Reply #31 on: June 21, 2023, 09:10:02 AM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on June 21, 2023, 08:07:41 AM
It's pretty hard to fight against the tide when you put a guy who inherited a top-10 program and left a top-75ish program ahead of a guy who inherited maybe a top-75 program and currently has built a top-25ish program.

There's simply no reasonable justification for that IMO.  Weber inherited the best this program has ever been and left a decade of mediocrity in his wake, he was a disaster.  Underwood inherited the result of that decade of mediocrity, quickly made us nationally relevant again, and has already been turned on.

This.
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Lkdog

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Re: rank our last 5 coaches
« Reply #32 on: June 21, 2023, 02:30:26 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on June 21, 2023, 08:07:41 AM
It's pretty hard to fight against the tide when you put a guy who inherited a top-10 program and left a top-75ish program ahead of a guy who inherited maybe a top-75 program and currently has built a top-25ish program.

There's simply no reasonable justification for that IMO.  Weber inherited the best this program has ever been and left a decade of mediocrity in his wake, he was a disaster.  Underwood inherited the result of that decade of mediocrity, quickly made us nationally relevant again, and has already been turned on.

Weber had a 15-13 record in NCAA's.
He was 9-6 here in tourney at Illinois in 9 seasons. A S16 and an NCAA Final.
Had three different teams in a S16 or better.
Guy was a dork, but got it done more than UW.

Not even close to compare these guys, but carry on.

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spark mandrill

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Re: rank our last 5 coaches
« Reply #33 on: June 21, 2023, 02:36:42 PM »
How many NBA players and All Americans did Brad Underwood inherit?

Weber's tournament record is MASSIVELY helped by the two years he had with 5 NBA guys and three All Americans.  He was 7-2 with those guys.  He was 1-2 in 5 seasons after Self's guys left.  He was 3-5 in 10 years at KSU, all three wins came in one year - one of them was the very first second-round game a 16 seed had ever played in.

At Illinois, he inherited a program that had made the tournament 9 out of the previous 11 seasons, including a couple in there that were right after sanctions.  After year three, he won one tournament game in his last 6 years.  He took a program that was humming along, probably a top-10 program at the time, and ran it off the cliff.

Even at KSU, he inherited a program that had made three straight tournaments with 5 wins in the previous three seasons.  He made the tournament half the time there, and won less than those 5 games in 10 years.  Drove that one off the cliff too.

He was a disaster at both high majors he went to, a mediocre coach who inherited two separate high major programs near their historic peak and left mediocre programs behind in both places.

Just reciting his tournament record completely context-free doesn't do anything for me at all, but I suppose makes some sense from someone who also removes all context when discussing our current coach.

Were you a big Weber fan at the time?  Why or why not?

I agree, it isn't close.  Weber had two chances to inherit programs with lots of recent success and drove both off the cliff into obscurity.  Underwood inherited a program as bad as it'd been for decades and within a couple years had them as a 1 seed and consistent tourney participant.  It isn't close, you're not wrong about that.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2023, 02:45:37 PM by spark mandrill »
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Lkdog

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Re: rank our last 5 coaches
« Reply #34 on: June 21, 2023, 02:48:04 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on June 21, 2023, 02:36:42 PM
How many NBA players and All Americans did Brad Underwood inherit?

Weber's tournament record is MASSIVELY helped by the two years he had with 5 NBA guys and three All Americans.  He was 7-2 with those guys.  He was 1-2 in 5 seasons after Self's guys left.  He was 3-5 in 10 years at KSU, all three wins came in one year - one of them was the very first second-round game a 16 seed had ever played in.

So he had good players and got the job done?
You just made my point.
Hell, he even had a S16 and EE at schools without any All Americans on his roster.

Underwood gets a couple more bites at the apple. Let's see what he does. Hope he succeeds.
I especially like Domask who could be a big surprise. A nice change to get a guy with really good BB fundamentals.

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spark mandrill

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Re: rank our last 5 coaches
« Reply #35 on: June 21, 2023, 02:52:41 PM »
Quote from: Lkdog on June 21, 2023, 02:48:04 PM
So he had good players and got the job done?
You just made my point.
Hell, he even had a S16 and EE at schools without any All Americans on his roster.

Underwood gets a couple more bites at the apple. Let's see what he does. Hope he succeeds.
I especially like Domask who could be a big surprise. A nice change to get a guy with really good BB fundamentals.

He inherited great players - NBA guys and all Americans - had some early success, then drove the entire program off a ledge.  Twice.

If you think that made your point, your point must've changed somewhere along the way.  I thought it was that Weber was a better coach than Underwood, and the evidence indicates that he wasn't a very good coach at all.

You're taking a guy who multiple times took over a high major program and left it WAY worse than he found it, and saying he's notably better (it's not close) to a guy who took over our high major program and currently has it WAY better than he found it.  It only works if you close your eyes and completely ignore 100% of context.
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spark mandrill

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Re: rank our last 5 coaches
« Reply #36 on: June 21, 2023, 02:54:53 PM »
Imagine what you'd have said the day we hired Underwood if I'd said - he will resurrect the program, we will be a consistent tournament team within 3 years and get a 1-seed within 4, he will recruit our first TWO AP first team AA's ever, and you will be lamenting that Bruce Weber was a better basketball coach within 6 because Weber inherited Deron, Dee, and Luther.

I assume you'd have correctly laughed in my face.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2023, 02:59:09 PM by spark mandrill »
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Custard

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Re: rank our last 5 coaches
« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2023, 02:56:01 PM »
Quote from: Lkdog on June 21, 2023, 02:30:26 PM
Weber had a 15-13 record in NCAA's.
He was 9-6 here in tourney at Illinois in 9 seasons. A S16 and an NCAA Final.
Had three different teams in a S16 or better.
Guy was a dork, but got it done more than UW.

Not even close to compare these guys, but carry on.

You’re really going to count Weber’s teams that were entirely composed of Bill Self players like they count the same as the ones he recruited (and failed with) himself here? Good lord.

Yeah he made a S16 and a gifted E8 with his own players over the course of 25 years of D1 head coaching. If Brad keeps coaching another 16-17 years and is making the tourney every year, odds are he will, at worst, luck into the same or better results over that same amount of time.
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Judge Judy

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Re: rank our last 5 coaches
« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2023, 03:03:23 PM »
Some of y’all’s revisionist history regarding Weber is fucked up. Lol keep it up. Dude destroyed our program and you are complaining about Underwood. Gtfooh.
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ILLINICHIEF

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Re: rank our last 5 coaches
« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2023, 03:10:04 PM »
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/2023-nba-draft-brandin-podziemski-goes-from-bored-baseball-standout-to-fulfilling-hoops-aspirations/

Pretty good article with one GLARING point made...Coach doesn't sound good in this article.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2023, 03:12:43 PM by ILLINICHIEF »
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spark mandrill

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Re: rank our last 5 coaches
« Reply #40 on: June 21, 2023, 03:12:11 PM »
It actually works reasonably well - Underwood took 3 years to rebuild the program, and Weber's best players were Self recruits for 3 years before he had to build a program himself.

After that point, Weber was 121-85 (.587) and 50-56 (.471) in conference with three tournament appearances and one win in his final 6 years.

After the same three year period, Underwood has been 67-30 (.690) and 42-18 (.700) in conference with three tournament appearances and two wins in the last three years.

I agree, it isn't close.
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illinicalvin

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Re: rank our last 5 coaches
« Reply #41 on: June 21, 2023, 03:25:07 PM »
Weber's NCAA record includes a 7-2 section where he had 3 guys who made all-american lists, the schools all-time leading rebounder, and a guy who averaged 12/6 as a senior and got a cup of coffee in the league.

Weber recruited none of these guys nor coached them in their developmental years.

Like, Weber coached them, but I would submit a lot of generic replacement coaches would've coached those teams into the second weekend.
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spark mandrill

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Re: rank our last 5 coaches
« Reply #42 on: June 21, 2023, 03:50:38 PM »
He inherited a team that was ranked preseason #13 before he'd coached them at all.  Finished that season ranked #13.

After Deron Williams left post year-2, he was ranked #13 or better one week in the next 7 years (#12 for a week in 2010-11 and then lost to UIC at the United Center  Finished that year unranked, but DID get his only post-Dee NCAA win).  He never finished a season ranked here after Dee Brown graduated in year 3.

Revisionist history is putting it very nicely.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2023, 03:54:04 PM by spark mandrill »
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ThePAMan

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Re: rank our last 5 coaches
« Reply #43 on: June 21, 2023, 04:30:16 PM »
Question: Would Underachiever actually have done a better job than Weber had Underachiever inherited Self's players?
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Judge Judy

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Re: rank our last 5 coaches
« Reply #44 on: June 21, 2023, 05:07:35 PM »
Quote from: ThePAMan on June 21, 2023, 04:30:16 PM
Question: Would Underachiever actually have done a better job than Weber had Underachiever inherited Self's players?

Probably.
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