do illinois loyalty "insiders" actually have info

ThePAMan

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Re: do illinois loyalty "insiders" actually have info

« Reply #795 on: June 21, 2023, 09:55:24 AM »

Quote from: spark mandrill on June 21, 2023, 09:48:23 AM

And that attitude often undercuts success, as it would've if the UConn analog to you would've gotten Hurley fired and cost them a title. Perfect is often the enemy of good, and demanding perfect while denigrating good is a pretty good way to end up bad.

I'm not and never have been saying you gotta be happy with just making the tournament forever, but it's pretty clear that more or less nothing short of being 1980-2020 Duke is going to make you stop complaining, and maybe not even that. Right now Underwood's on the 10th longest tournament streak nationally, 8th longest among high major teams. He has been a victim of a notable upset once.

This board goes on and on about Underwood being a top-15 paid coach, but only three programs on that list are on a better tournament streak than we are (MSU, Kansas, Tennessee).

The opposite, stagnation, I guess, does what for you? You get Bruce Weber.

"victim of a notable upset"...as if he had nothing to do with it at all?

Being a consistent upper echelon program is the goal here. The issue is whether Underachiever can do that. 8 Ball says...Reply hazy, try again.

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ThePAMan

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Re: do illinois loyalty "insiders" actually have info

« Reply #796 on: June 21, 2023, 09:56:42 AM »

Quote from: Judge Judy on June 21, 2023, 09:53:23 AM

I’ll ask the Underwood haters, would you prefer Matt Painter’s results in the tourney?!

Why, would you? Is this an either/or? I don't think it needs to be.

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Judge Judy

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Re: do illinois loyalty "insiders" actually have info

« Reply #797 on: June 21, 2023, 09:57:41 AM »

Quote from: ThePAMan on June 21, 2023, 09:56:42 AM

Why, would you? Is this an either/or? I don't think it needs to be.

He’s a “nice guy” with epic failures in the tourney. Would you be calling for his head with his results at Illinois?!

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ThePAMan

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Re: do illinois loyalty "insiders" actually have info

« Reply #798 on: June 21, 2023, 10:01:34 AM »

Quote from: Judge Judy on June 21, 2023, 09:57:41 AM

He’s a “nice guy” with epic failures in the tourney. Would you be calling for his head with his results at Illinois?!

Probably.

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spark mandrill

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Re: do illinois loyalty "insiders" actually have info

« Reply #799 on: June 21, 2023, 10:01:49 AM »

If you think Bruce Weber built a program with similar results to Underwood's, well then no wonder you whine about him every day.

He didn't though. Weber drove the car off the bridge, and it took us a decade to hire someone who could recover it. Now that we're finally back on the road you want to put the car back in the ditch in the hopes someone can get it on the road faster next time.

No, of course he deserves blame for the upset. Absolutely, it was bad. Of course, every great coach ever has suffered an upset or three. Lou Henson had:

- a 7 seed that lost in the first round to a 10 seed
- a 5 seed that lost in the first round to a 12 seed
- a 3 seed that lost in the first round to a 14 seed
- a 3 seed that lost in the second round to a 6 seed

We named our court after him.

If being a "consistent upper echelon program" was the goal, you wouldn't spend all your time complaining about the guy who turned us from a mediocre also-ran into something pretty darn close to that.

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Judge Judy

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Re: do illinois loyalty "insiders" actually have info

« Reply #800 on: June 21, 2023, 10:02:52 AM »

Quote from: ThePAMan on June 21, 2023, 10:01:34 AM

Probably.

Fair enough.

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Reacher

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Re: do illinois loyalty "insiders" actually have info

« Reply #801 on: June 21, 2023, 10:04:47 AM »

Quote from: spark mandrill on June 21, 2023, 08:05:17 AM

Honestly curious.

If you took over a position that had been done terribly for a decade or more, built it back and within 6 years had it consistently nationally relevant again, and the result was many people in your organization wanted you fired because you weren't good enough - wouldn't you at least kind of think "man, I can probably get paid well and have as much success elsewhere where they won't turn on me despite it"? How much would you like a job where you can build it quickly from totally irrelevant to nationally relevant and the result is you're about 50/50 to get fired?

I wouldn't blame Underwood for being kind of put off by that, I know I would be. He probably feels like he's done well here, which any objective reading of his results confirms, and instead of being lauded he's constantly under attack for it.

Like imagine you take over an Outback store that has been around the 50th percentile in sales for a decade. Within 5 years you have it humming, up to around the 90th percentile in sales. Your bosses fire you because you weren't in the 97th percentile. Would you think that was reasonable? I think most people in that scenario would be seriously considering the offer from Texas Roadhouse, who will pay you similarly and is less likely to fire you despite completely turning the franchise around.

I have a feeling that most of the “fire him” heat is coming from places like here, which don’t matter.

Can someone more connected than I am give us a general pulse of the boosters? Is Underwood actually feeling real heat? I’d be a bit surprised if that’s the case. Maybe someone can shed some light on this.

« Last Edit: June 21, 2023, 10:10:07 AM by Tempo34 »

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ThePAMan

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Re: do illinois loyalty "insiders" actually have info

« Reply #802 on: June 21, 2023, 10:05:59 AM »

Quote from: spark mandrill on June 21, 2023, 10:01:49 AM

If you think Bruce Weber built a program with similar results to Underwood's, well then no wonder you whine about him every day.

He didn't though. Weber drove the car off the bridge, and it took us a decade to hire someone who could recover it. Now that we're finally back on the road you want to put the car back in the ditch in the hopes someone can get it on the road faster next time.

No, of course he deserves blame for the upset. Absolutely, it was bad. Of course, every great coach ever has suffered an upset or three. Lou Henson had:

- a 7 seed that lost in the first round to a 10 seed
- a 5 seed that lost in the first round to a 12 seed
- a 3 seed that lost in the first round to a 14 seed
- a 3 seed that lost in the second round to a 6 seed

We named our court after him.

If being a "consistent upper echelon program" was the goal, you wouldn't spend all your time complaining about the guy who turned us from a mediocre also-ran into something pretty darn close to that.

Bruce Weber didn't build anything. He was stagnant and became regresssive.

Underwood has the program back to relevance. The question is where does it go from here? Not being able to get a PG is concerning. Having valued transfers claim to have no interest in coming here is concerning. Program is at Point B. Can he get the program to Point C?

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Reacher

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Re: do illinois loyalty "insiders" actually have info

« Reply #803 on: June 21, 2023, 10:06:27 AM »

Quote from: Chickengeorge on June 21, 2023, 08:24:07 AM

We ARE better off than pre-Underwood. No doubt.

Even I’ve agreed with that. It’s not even debateable.

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Lkdog

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Re: do illinois loyalty "insiders" actually have info

« Reply #804 on: June 21, 2023, 10:24:32 AM »

Quote from: ILLINICHIEF on June 21, 2023, 08:56:15 AM

Well the fact of Hawk/TSJ returning along with our transfers that "seem" to fit possibly better than Mayer and the baggage he brought along....would point to us HAVING to get to a Sweet 16 this year.

2 Potential All Americans on the team this year and Goode being healthy for once, the freshman having legit game experience under there belts. This team will have HIGH expectations from everyone, themselves and fans alike.

That said, BU is not and should not be fired for what he has done so far, certainly not for the Podz miss......

You are delusional. Shannon is slim outside possibility if he gets to a completely different level.
We have nobody else that will even be First Team All BT.
If you are thinking Hawkins you are crazy.

The expectations for this team right now are Top 25-30, Top 4 in BT, a 6-8 seed and hopefully play really well on first weekend and break through to S16.
It is possible. Without better game management on offense by PG role I think that will be a challenge. Maybe Rodgers and hopefully Harmon can do the job.
They should be better than last year.

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spark mandrill

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Re: do illinois loyalty "insiders" actually have info

« Reply #805 on: June 21, 2023, 10:38:49 AM »

Sincerely doubt Hawkins is an all American candidate, but I think first team all conference is a good, reasonable goal for him. Very well might not get there, but he's talented and athletic enough that that should be what he's aiming at IMO.

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spark mandrill

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Re: do illinois loyalty "insiders" actually have info

« Reply #806 on: June 21, 2023, 10:41:17 AM »

Quote from: Tempo34 on June 21, 2023, 10:04:47 AM

I have a feeling that most of the “fire him” heat is coming from places like here, which don’t matter.

Can someone more connected than I am give us a general pulse of the boosters? Is Underwood actually feeling real heat? I’d be a bit surprised if that’s the case. Maybe someone can shed some light on this.

Probably depends what you think of the Loyalty Insider crowd. They seem to think there's real heat on him.

You didn't answer the question though - in that scenario would you be open to looking elsewhere, even if Outback was your 'dream job' when you got it? I think in large part it makes sense to look at your results, see how the reactions among fans and boosters don't really match those results in any way, and think - hey, there are surely places where I can pull in 7 figures, win at a high level, and not have the fanbase waiting for one single slip up to completely turn on me. Most places outside of blue bloods don't do what we're doing now and spend most of their time trashing a guy with the type of success Underwood has had here.

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Lkdog

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Re: do illinois loyalty "insiders" actually have info

« Reply #807 on: June 21, 2023, 10:43:26 AM »

Quote from: spark mandrill on June 21, 2023, 10:38:49 AM

Sincerely doubt Hawkins is an all American candidate, but I think first team all conference is a good, reasonable goal for him. Very well might not get there, but he's talented and athletic enough that that should be what he's aiming at IMO.

I hope he starts to achieve his potential more. If he is first team all BT with Shannon we will be Top 15 team and have a very good season.

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spark mandrill

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Re: do illinois loyalty "insiders" actually have info

« Reply #808 on: June 21, 2023, 10:45:36 AM »

Definitely. I just don't think that's like, far out of the question. Hawkins obviously has the talent and size to do it, just needs to put it together.

He very well may not, he may be inconsistent and frustrating with occasional spots of looking like an all conference guy like he did last year. But in my opinion he's talented enough that all conference first team is a very reasonable goal for him to have.

There have been like, five or six triple doubles in our 120ish year history and he had one last year. Dude obviously has a high skill level.

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ILLINICHIEF

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Re: do illinois loyalty "insiders" actually have info

« Reply #809 on: June 21, 2023, 10:48:31 AM »

Quote from: Lkdog on June 21, 2023, 10:24:32 AM

You are delusional. Shannon is slim outside possibility if he gets to a completely different level.
We have nobody else that will even be First Team All BT.
If you are thinking Hawkins you are crazy.

The expectations for this team right now are Top 25-30, Top 4 in BT, a 6-8 seed and hopefully play really well on first weekend and break through to S16.
It is possible. Without better game management on offense by PG role I think that will be a challenge. Maybe Rodgers and hopefully Harmon can do the job.
They should be better than last year.

Weak draft = Weak All American class. TSJ is easily a pre-season All American. Hawk is a stretch for sure....but talent (projected) will also easily make people think we are a failure if no Sweet 16 this year.

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