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do illinois loyalty "insiders" actually have info

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Reacher

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Re: do illinois loyalty "insiders" actually have info
« Reply #585 on: May 24, 2023, 09:41:32 AM »
Who did I say Illinois is (historically) way better than? Utah? Performance wise, they are mostly comparable. What isn’t comparable is the conference (especially when considering their conferences historically), and visibility. No one but hardcore basketball fans watch west coast basketball. Dee Brown had a higher profile here than he would have had at Utah. That’s pretty much undebatable. Didn’t Utah have a #1 overall pick 15 years or so ago? I can’t even recall who it was. And I actually watched a lot of college ball back then.
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"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.
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Reacher

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Re: do illinois loyalty "insiders" actually have info
« Reply #586 on: May 24, 2023, 09:44:58 AM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on May 24, 2023, 08:59:33 AM
Nope, I've fully acknowledged that he might find Illinois an attractive destination multiple times, over and over really.  You just ignore it.  I've said "maybe he just hates Underwood?" or "Maybe Underwood just dropped the ball?" multiple times too, which you don't even acknowledge, but when I say "maybe they didn't like that Underwood passed on him last time?" you both 1. claim I am 'assuming that is true', which I'm not doing any more than I am in the 'maybe Underwood fucked up?' speculation, and 2. mock the notion that maybe a kid's parents might not like that the state university coach didn't even look at their first team all-state kid. I think it's clear based on this discussion that you would be shocked at the things that decide major recruitments, parents struggling to get past a coach overlooking their kid wouldn't even be slightly unusual.

What's at issue is that I also acknowledge that I have no idea whether that's actually true about RayJ Dennis, and that assuming it IS true is pretty silly, because there's just no way for either of us to know.

You can't acknowledge that you don't know.  You simply assume he thinks like you, and mock anyone who suggests that it's possible he does not.



You did (acknowledge it)? In the last couple pages? IDK I’m having a hard time keeping up with this rapid fire pace. I’m like two pages behind already this morning. So far all I’ve seen is a soft-landing pad for Underwood. And that’s fine, but just don’t try to tell me that a former 3 star from suburban Chicago is just as likely to consider or choose Utah (all things considered) as Illinois. Because that just isn’t true.
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"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.
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spark mandrill

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Re: do illinois loyalty "insiders" actually have info
« Reply #587 on: May 24, 2023, 09:45:55 AM »
Quote from: Tempo34 on May 24, 2023, 09:41:32 AM
Who did I say Illinois is (historically) way better than? Utah? Performance wise, they are mostly comparable. What isn’t comparable is the conference (especially when considering their conferences historically), and visibility. No one but hardcore basketball fans watch west coast basketball. Dee Brown had a higher profile here than he would have had at Utah. That’s pretty much undebatable. Didn’t Utah have a #1 overall pick 15 years or so ago? I can’t even recall who it was. And I actually watched a lot of college ball back then.

You mentioned Illinois has a 'better scope' than Utah, but couldn't define that.

I think Illinois IS a better program historically, but it's pretty close, and "it just is" isn't really a compelling argument.  I think that because of the programs' results, not because of their conference or their "scope" or any other nebulous made up criteria I could use.

Why does their historical conference matter?  Did their successes come in the Mid-Major NCAA Tournament?  They play in a high-major conference now, and have for more than a decade.

It was Andrew Bogut.  He went two picks in front of our All American.  Milwaukee must not have known about the scope.  No way they thought the best player on Utah tended to be better than the best player on Illinois.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2023, 09:49:04 AM by spark mandrill »
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Re: do illinois loyalty "insiders" actually have info
« Reply #588 on: May 24, 2023, 09:46:14 AM »
I’m not going to post for a bit. I have a fuckton of posts to read to catch up.
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"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.
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spark mandrill

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Re: do illinois loyalty "insiders" actually have info
« Reply #589 on: May 24, 2023, 09:47:28 AM »
Quote from: Tempo34 on May 24, 2023, 09:44:58 AM
You did (acknowledge it)? In the last couple pages? IDK I’m having a hard time keeping up with this rapid fire pace. I’m like two pages behind already this morning. So far all I’ve seen is a soft-landing pad for Underwood. And that’s fine, but just don’t try to tell me that a former 3 star from suburban Chicago is just as likely to consider or choose Utah (all things considered) as Illinois. Because that just isn’t true.

I didn't try to tell you that at all, which you know because you've read my posts and are capable of thought that isn't the purest black-and-white.

And yes, I've acknowledged over and over that it's possible Underwood just fucked this up and dropped the ball.  Multiple times, last night, this morning - the whole time my point is "I do not know what happened", and I certainly have acknowledged the possibility Underwood fucked up.  I just do not know, and am unwilling to pretend that I do.  But you only accused me of "assuming" the opposite.
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Chickengeorge

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Re: do illinois loyalty "insiders" actually have info
« Reply #590 on: May 24, 2023, 09:47:55 AM »
Andrew Bogut
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Reacher

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Re: do illinois loyalty "insiders" actually have info
« Reply #591 on: May 24, 2023, 09:48:42 AM »
Why would I have to explain “scope” to a college basketball nut? You don’t recognize that half the country doesn’t watch west coast basketball? I haven’t looked it up, but I’ll bet Illinois’ budget far exceeds Utah’s. Yes, Illinois is higher profile than Utah. That’s not debatable in the least.
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"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.
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Re: do illinois loyalty "insiders" actually have info
« Reply #592 on: May 24, 2023, 09:51:31 AM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on May 24, 2023, 08:35:00 AM
I was using the examples you provided to show that your overall point - that someone's parent having a passing, cursory interest in a college basketball program sometimes - does not lead to it being a 'bad look' if they don't choose that school.  That if your kid was choosing between Northwestern and, say, Oregon State, and chose OSU, it wouldn't be some huge indictment on the Northwestern coach just because you live near Chicago and occasionally show passing interest in Northwestern basketball.

It's amazing how much difficulty you have understanding really simple debate points.  You're really spectacularly bad at honest debate, chock full of intentional misrepresentations and strawmen.

See, you just compared NU to Illinois. Illinois has a pretty good history of getting kids they want out of Illinois (despite all the crying about the ones that got away). Many kids we didn’t even see as offer worthy turned out to be great college players. By saying “if northwestern shouldn’t be embarrassed, neither should Illinois,” you are indeed, comparing the two.
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"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.
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spark mandrill

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Re: do illinois loyalty "insiders" actually have info
« Reply #593 on: May 24, 2023, 09:51:35 AM »
Quote from: Tempo34 on May 24, 2023, 09:48:42 AM
Why would I have to explain “scope” to a college basketball nut? You don’t recognize that half the country doesn’t watch west coast basketball? I haven’t looked it up, but I’ll bet Illinois’ budget far exceeds Utah’s. Yes, Illinois is higher profile than Utah. That’s not debatable in the least.

I'd like to know what we're discussing specifically when we talk about 'scope'.  Brand?  Yeah, Illinois definitely has a higher profile brand than Utah.  They also have a higher profile brand than a lot of schools that have had similar or more success to them.  I am not and never have been talking about their brand, I am talking about their program.

They also have a higher profile brand and bigger "scope" than, say, Gonzaga - but I'd understand if a kid picked Gonzaga over Illinois.
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spark mandrill

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Re: do illinois loyalty "insiders" actually have info
« Reply #594 on: May 24, 2023, 09:53:04 AM »
Quote from: Tempo34 on May 24, 2023, 09:51:31 AM
See, you just compared NU to Illinois. Illinois has a pretty good history of getting kids they want out of Illinois (despite all the crying about the ones that got away). Many kids we didn’t even see as offer worthy turned out to be great college players. By saying “if northwestern shouldn’t be embarrassed, neither should Illinois,” you are indeed, comparing the two.

I simply borrowed the comparison you made.  If it was a stupid comparison, you shouldn't have made it.

Switch it to UNC.  Point is exactly the same, as you've already ignored a bunch of times.

Honest question:  is Illinois more similar to UNC as a program, or to Utah?
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Re: do illinois loyalty "insiders" actually have info
« Reply #595 on: May 24, 2023, 09:53:23 AM »
 My only point in bringing them up is that when they are good, even Illinoisans who aren’t fans pay attention. So it’s highly unlikely Illinois was just never on his radar or anyone around him. He’s probably got at least a couple of good friends who there.
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"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.
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Re: do illinois loyalty "insiders" actually have info
« Reply #596 on: May 24, 2023, 09:54:37 AM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on May 24, 2023, 09:53:04 AM
I simply borrowed the comparison you made.  If it was a stupid comparison, you shouldn't have made it.

Switch it to UNC.  Point is exactly the same, as you've already ignored a bunch of times.

Honest question:  is Illinois more similar to UNC as a program, or to Utah?

Again, I wasn’t “comparing” anything. I was merely stating when those programs are good people notice. Particularly people from the Chicago area.
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"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.
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spark mandrill

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Re: do illinois loyalty "insiders" actually have info
« Reply #597 on: May 24, 2023, 09:55:11 AM »
Quote from: Tempo34 on May 24, 2023, 09:54:37 AM
Again, I wasn’t “comparing” anything. I was merely stating when those programs are good people notice. Particularly people from the Chicago area.

I wasn't comparing the programs either, I simply took the example you gave and used it to show that your thought process is silly.  Switch it to UNC, if you don't like the example you used.

I must have just not taken into account the Scope!
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Reacher

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Re: do illinois loyalty "insiders" actually have info
« Reply #598 on: May 24, 2023, 09:57:12 AM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on May 24, 2023, 08:59:33 AM
Nope, I've fully acknowledged that he might find Illinois an attractive destination multiple times, over and over really.  You just ignore it.  I've said "maybe he just hates Underwood?" or "Maybe Underwood just dropped the ball?" multiple times too, which you don't even acknowledge, but when I say "maybe they didn't like that Underwood passed on him last time?" you both 1. claim I am 'assuming that is true', which I'm not doing any more than I am in the 'maybe Underwood fucked up?' speculation, and 2. mock the notion that maybe a kid's parents might not like that the state university coach didn't even look at their first team all-state kid. I think it's clear based on this discussion that you would be shocked at the things that decide major recruitments, parents struggling to get past a coach overlooking their kid wouldn't even be slightly unusual.

What's at issue is that I also acknowledge that I have no idea whether that's actually true about RayJ Dennis, and that assuming it IS true is pretty silly, because there's just no way for either of us to know.

You can't acknowledge that you don't know.  You simply assume he thinks like you, and mock anyone who suggests that it's possible he does not.

No, I would just never offer up some bizarre theory as to why something might not happen when I’m just pulling things up out of thin air. Especially something as random as a perceived slight from 4 years ago. And…I never said you said that was “true.” I mocked you for offering the suggestion. Especially when he’s had a visit here.
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"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.
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spark mandrill

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Re: do illinois loyalty "insiders" actually have info
« Reply #599 on: May 24, 2023, 09:57:51 AM »
Quote from: Tempo34 on May 24, 2023, 09:53:23 AM
My only point in bringing them up is that when they are good, even Illinoisans who aren’t fans pay attention. So it’s highly unlikely Illinois was just never on his radar or anyone around him. He’s probably got at least a couple of good friends who there.

And someone said "It's highly likely Illinois was just never on his or anyone around him's radar?"  Or are you just arguing against nobody again?

I think he probably knows people who like Illinois, yeah.  I have no idea if he does, if his parents do, if it would influence his college decision, etc.  If Loyalty is right (again, pretty funny how jasn made this thread to shit on them but breathlessly reports everything they say here as fact minutes later if its negative) and he passed on $300k, maybe Illinois wasn't such a big draw to him?  Maybe Underwood was an asshole to his family?  Who fucking knows?  I think it's clear if that number is true, the "draw" of Illinois to an Illinois kid was not particularly strong for RayJ Dennis.
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