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WTF is wrong with the left?

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ThePAMan

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #3450 on: June 13, 2023, 08:04:40 AM »
If anyone read the Failing NY Times daily email, you'd see in their analysis of what Dems need to do to appeal to white working class voters in order to actually win elections, that Custard is closer to what working class voters want than Spark or Tempo.
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Reacher

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #3451 on: June 13, 2023, 09:41:07 AM »
White people like to feel comfy? Who could have guessed?
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"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.
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illiniray

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #3452 on: June 13, 2023, 10:07:46 AM »
Quote from: ThePAMan on June 13, 2023, 08:04:40 AM
If anyone read the Failing NY Times daily email, you'd see in their analysis of what Dems need to do to appeal to white working class voters in order to actually win elections, that Custard is closer to what working class voters want than Spark or Tempo.

That's the quandary of progressive social democrats. To achieve their goals, they need to disturb people out of complacency. I think their biggest problem is they have won so many battles. Gay people feel more threatened by street crime than by DeSantis

Republicans have a similar problem. To actually win elections, they need to rile up their bigoted base and risk alienating moderates.
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Somewhere in Mn

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #3453 on: June 13, 2023, 10:43:58 AM »
And here I thought, for the Republicans, that getting the FBI and DOJ to stop interfering with elections would be a good start.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2023, 10:53:14 AM by Mn »
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spark mandrill

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #3454 on: June 13, 2023, 10:52:03 AM »
They wouldn't have won an election since 2004 without the FBI interfering.
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ThePAMan

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #3455 on: June 13, 2023, 11:04:44 AM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on June 13, 2023, 10:52:03 AM
They wouldn't have won an election since 2004 without the FBI interfering.

It is ironic.
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Reacher

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #3456 on: June 13, 2023, 11:05:14 AM »
Quote from: Mn on June 13, 2023, 10:43:58 AM
And here I thought, for the Republicans, that getting the FBI and DOJ to stop interfering with elections would be a good start.

Lol pure gold
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"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.
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ThePAMan

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #3457 on: June 13, 2023, 11:05:51 AM »
Quote from: Tempo34 on June 13, 2023, 09:41:07 AM
White people like to feel comfy? Who could have guessed?

Telling me you didn't read the Failing NY Times piece without telling me you didn't read the Failing NY Times piece.
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alum74

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #3458 on: June 13, 2023, 11:55:21 AM »
Some general thoughts on the NYT's blurb:

I'm guessing white working-class voters are like any other group: They're not monolithic. 

Also, keep in mind that if a Democratic candidate for president gets into the low 40s with white voters, they have a good chance of winning.  So, working on white working class voters has some advantages. Dems need to work on closing margins, not trying to win them outright.

That said, Dems need to be shoring up its base of black, Hispanic, women and young voters first. Then work on white working class voters.

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illiniray

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #3459 on: June 13, 2023, 12:06:20 PM »
Black Americans who were indirectly affected by slavery, Jim.Crow, Redlining, and so on want more than acceptance. They want reparations.

The United States paid reparations to Japanese Americans who were illegally detained during WW II. We pay reparations to the survivors of native American Indians we cheated out of their lands. I don't see or hear any right wing outrage over that.

Americans collectively cheated chattel slaves out of their labor, identity, culture, and humanity. We collectively indirectly profited from Chattel Slavery. Extant corporations directly profited.

Subsequently, Jim Crow Laws and practices such as redlining denied descendants of slaves equal access to education, housing, employment, credit, and so on. Extant corporations engaged in discriminatory practices. The equal protection clause makes the United States Government responsible.

Yet, the majority of whites don't even want to discuss reparations for chattel Slavery and Jim Cow.


« Last Edit: June 13, 2023, 12:08:16 PM by illiniray »
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ThePAMan

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #3460 on: June 13, 2023, 12:09:55 PM »
Here is the whole dadgum thing. Highlighted points Alum referenced and what I was referencing when mentioning Custard....

Quote
Teachers, not lawyers
About 60 percent of U.S. voters do not have a four-year college degree, and they live disproportionately in swing states. As a result, these voters — often described as the American working class — are crucial to winning elections. Yet many of them are deeply skeptical of today’s Democratic Party.

Republicans retook control of the House last year by winning most districts with below-median incomes. In nearly 20 Western and Southern states, Democrats are virtually shut out of statewide offices largely because of their weakness among the white working class. Since 2018, the party has also lost ground with Black, Asian and especially Latino voters.

Unless the party improves its standing with blue-collar voters, “there’s no way for progressive Democrats to advance their agenda in the Senate,” according to a study that the Center for Working-Class Politics, a left-leaning research group, released this morning.

The class inversion of American politics — with most professionals supporting Democrats and more working-class people backing Republicans — is one of the most consequential developments in American life (and, as regular readers know, a continuing theme of this newsletter).

Today, I’ll be writing about what Democrats might do about the problem, focusing on a new YouGov poll, conducted as part of the Center for Working-Class Politics study. In an upcoming newsletter, I’ll examine the issue from a conservative perspective and specifically how Republicans might alter their economic agenda to better serve their new working-class base.

A key point is that even modest shifts in the working-class vote can decide elections. If President Biden wins 50 percent of the non-college vote next year, he will almost certainly be re-elected. If he wins only 45 percent, he will probably lose.

‘Fight for us all’
Elections can be tricky for social scientists to study. The sample sizes are small and idiosyncratic. Researchers can’t conduct hundreds of elections in a laboratory, changing one variable at a time and analyzing how the results change. But researchers can conduct polls that pit hypothetical candidates against each other and see how the results change when the candidates’ biographies, messages and policy proposals change.

This approach, which has become more common among pollsters, is the one that YouGov used. It focused on swing voters — those who don’t identify strongly with either party, many of whom are working class. The poll described a pair of Democratic candidates, each with a biography and a campaign platform, and asked respondents which one they preferred.

Among the findings:

Voters preferred a candidate who was a teacher, construction worker, warehouse worker, doctor or nurse. The least popular candidate professions were lawyer and corporate executive.
Many effective messages involved jobs, including both moderate policies (like tax credits for training at small businesses) and progressive ones (like a federal jobs guarantee). “People are obviously interested in good-paying jobs,” said Bhaskar Sunkara, the founder of Jacobin, a leftist magazine that helped sponsor the project. “They have an identity that’s rooted in their work.”
Black and Latino candidates were slightly more popular than other candidates, mostly because some voters of color preferred candidates of color. (Related: Black candidates — of different ideologies — have beaten non-Black candidates in recent mayoral primaries and elections in Chicago, Los Angeles, New York and Philadelphia, Matthew Yglesias of Substack pointed out to me.) But candidate messages that explicitly mentioned race were unpopular.
Voters liked Democrats who criticized both political parties as “out of touch.” There is real-world evidence to support this finding, too: Senator Mark Kelly of Arizona and Representative Marcy Kaptur of Ohio won close races last year while highlighting their differences with Democratic leaders, as Data for Progress, another research group, has noted.
Moderate social policies fared better than more liberal ones. The single most effective message in the poll was a vow to “protect the border”; decriminalization of the border was very unpopular.
Swing voters liked tough, populist messages such as “Americans who work for a living are being betrayed by superrich elites” and “Americans need to come together and elect leaders who will fight for us all.” As Jared Abbott, the director of the Center for Working-Class Politics, argued, “Democrats need to be less concerned with rhetorical niceties.” Doing so would hardly be new: Harry Truman and Franklin Roosevelt used such red-blooded language.
The bottom line
I find the study’s conclusions fascinating because they are both original and consistent with other evidence. Democrats who have won difficult recent elections, including both progressives and moderates, have often presented a blue-collar image.

President Biden talks about growing up in a working-class neighborhood. Marie Gluesenkamp Pérez, who owns a car-repair shop, flipped a House district in Washington State partly by criticizing her own party for being elitist. Senator Sherrod Brown, the only Democrat to win statewide in Ohio since 2011, is a populist. So is John Fetterman of Pennsylvania, the only Senate candidate from either party to flip a seat last year.

Many Americans are frustrated with the country’s direction, and they want candidates who will promise to fight for their interests. One of the vulnerabilities of today’s Democratic Party, as my colleague Nate Cohn has written, is that it has come to be associated with the establishment.
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ThePAMan

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #3461 on: June 13, 2023, 12:13:09 PM »
Quote from: illiniray on June 13, 2023, 12:06:20 PM
Black Americans who were indirectly affected by slavery, Jim.Crow, Redlining, and so on want more than acceptance. They want reparations.

The United States paid reparations to Japanese Americans who were illegally detained during WW II. We pay reparations to the survivors of native American Indians we cheated out of their lands. I don't see or hear any right wing outrage over that.

Americans collectively cheated chattel slaves out of their labor, identity, culture, and humanity. We collectively indirectly profited from Chattel Slavery. Extant corporations directly profited.

Subsequently, Jim Crow Laws and practices such as redlining denied descendants of slaves equal access to education, housing, employment, credit, and so on. Extant corporations engaged in discriminatory practices. The equal protection clause makes the United States Government responsible.

Yet, the majority of whites don't even want to discuss reparations for chattel Slavery and Jim Cow.

Are the costs of the Civil War to be considered in determining reparations?
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Custard

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #3462 on: June 13, 2023, 12:20:29 PM »
Quote from: illiniray on June 13, 2023, 12:06:20 PM
Black Americans who were indirectly affected by slavery, Jim.Crow, Redlining, and so on want more than acceptance. They want reparations.

The United States paid reparations to Japanese Americans who were illegally detained during WW II. We pay reparations to the survivors of native American Indians we cheated out of their lands. I don't see or hear any right wing outrage over that.

Americans collectively cheated chattel slaves out of their labor, identity, culture, and humanity. We collectively indirectly profited from Chattel Slavery. Extant corporations directly profited.

Subsequently, Jim Crow Laws and practices such as redlining denied descendants of slaves equal access to education, housing, employment, credit, and so on. Extant corporations engaged in discriminatory practices. The equal protection clause makes the United States Government responsible.

Yet, the majority of whites don't even want to discuss reparations for chattel Slavery and Jim Cow.

White working class pays most of the taxes, which pay reparations, so that’s probably why. It’s not so much racially motivated as financially motivated. If we magically came up with the money in some way that didn’t impact taxpayers or the deficit, I’m sure people would be a lot less resistant to it. It’s a lot easier to cheerlead for reparations as a non-taxpayer (Democratic base), someone who is retired, or someone who is going to directly benefit from the burden being placed on someone else.

My family came here from Germany in 1854. My great great great grandfather fought with the Illinois Cavalry to end slavery. Why should his great great great grandson (and descendants) be saddled with additional financial burden to finance reparations for something we had nothing to do with?
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alum74

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #3463 on: June 13, 2023, 12:38:05 PM »
Quote from: ThePAMan on June 13, 2023, 12:09:55 PM
Here is the whole dadgum thing. Highlighted points Alum referenced and what I was referencing when mentioning Custard....

I watched several Mark Kelly campaign commercials in the last election.  I was interested in seeing how a Democrat would do in a purple state like Arizona.  I don’t remember Mark Kelly saying both parties were “out of touch”.  I do remember him emphasizing that he would put Arizona first when making decisions on how to vote.  He said he would avoid partisan bickering, emphasized his military background and visited the border, stressing the need for a “commonsense” approach to the problem. 

Kelly also had a Kari Lake-type Republican opponent and did a terrific job of defining him early in the campaign. 

I think Kelly would make an interesting Dem candidate for president.     


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illiniray

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Re: WTF is wrong with the left?
« Reply #3464 on: June 13, 2023, 01:07:26 PM »
Quote from: Custard on June 13, 2023, 12:20:29 PM
. Why should his great great great grandson (and descendants) be saddled with additional financial burden to finance reparations for something we had nothing to do with?

Because he lives in the United States of America, where Chattel Slavery, Jim Crow, and Redlining occurred. You live here, you accept the debts with the benefits. The same sort of reason why I, a retired empty nest person, pays taxes for schools.

The same reason we compensate Indians for past theft of tribal lands, even if our personal direct ancestors had nothing to do with it. My dad had nothing to do with rounding up and detaining Japanese Americans, but he didn't complain when they were compensated.

Realistically, we can't pay full value. Also, unlike affirmative action, reparations should be narrowly targeted to the descendants of actual victims.

We might have stalled long enough that it's too late. There should at least be an honest conversation. Not, my ancestors nothing to do with slavery, and I never discriminated against anyone, so don't look at me.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2023, 01:10:22 PM by illiniray »
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