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Next Years Roster Thoughts

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Dominic

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Re: Next Years Roster Thoughts
« Reply #330 on: June 17, 2022, 08:20:05 PM »
Quote from: ILLINICHIEF on June 17, 2022, 07:22:00 PM
Several I would label differently myself, but just semantics at that point. That said, how do you kow Epps cannot be elite? Many may argue that Epps could and possible is as good if not better now, if not down the road as well. I am personally higher on Epps has a player for us, than Skyy, but higher on Skyy as a recruit (ranking) (stars). We will see.

Claiming Sky is better than Frank Williams and Dee Brown (who both were McDonalds All American) is bat shit crazy.

Again, there a reason Kentucky dropped this dude.  If he was destined to be one the greatest guards in NCAA history, they wouldn’t have.  And other than Kyle Wiltjer,  and you could throw in Johnny Juzang, the guys that can’t cut it under Calipari or guys he drops/decommits/recruited over do not do anything of note.

Anyone can watch a tape of his movement last year and sees he’s slow. And if he were a 5 star guard then he’d have had far more teams other than Illinois trying to get him after Kentucky.  TN is a decent program, but it’s not like Duke/UNC/Gonzaga are begging for him to come to their team.

« Last Edit: June 17, 2022, 08:25:55 PM by Dominic »
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Lkdog

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Re: Next Years Roster Thoughts
« Reply #331 on: June 17, 2022, 09:43:29 PM »
Quote from: illiniray on June 17, 2022, 04:38:46 PM
Make this a new effing thread if you want. Be interesting to see how Skyy Clark and Jayden Epps stack up against the top Illinois lead guards of the past.

Elite: Andy Phillip, Derek Harper, Deron Williams

Great: Talk Brody, Bruce Douglas, Kiwane Harris, Frank Williams, Dee Brown, Ayo Dosunmu

Very Good: Manny Jackson, Jim Dawson, Tony Wysinger,  Steve Bardo, Demitri McCamey, Trent Frazier,  Andre Curbelo*

Good:  Bill Small, Jodie Harrison, Jeff Dawson, Steve Lanter, Larry Smith, Rennie Clemons, Trent Meacham, Chester Frazier, Andres Feliz

Who'd I forget?

Skyy Clark can be elite, Epps great.


You left out Hill, Richardson, Paul, Rice, Nunn.

I would never have even considered Trent Meachum, Curbello, or Chet Frazier.
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Gokuwearsorange/blue

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Re: Next Years Roster Thoughts
« Reply #332 on: June 17, 2022, 09:50:55 PM »
Skyy Clark vs tyrese hunter (Texas) will be interesting . The Las Vegas invitational with programs known for their defense like Baylor and Virginia will be a tough test for a fresh. PG. Even UCLA had a decent defense last year.

Should be fun though.
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illiniray

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Re: Next Years Roster Thoughts
« Reply #333 on: June 17, 2022, 09:57:27 PM »
Deron Williams was not a McD AA, but might be the best lead guard we've had. He was three and done, 3rd pick in the  2005 draft. Played 12 years in the NBA.  Lead the 2005 team to the championship game. Three time all star.  Won an Olympic gold medal.

Andy Phillip helped invent the PG position and is a Naismith hall of famer..

Harper was our first McD AA and first early entrant. #11 in 1983 draft. Played 16 years in the NBA.

Those three are my picks as the greatest of the great; the best of the best.

Should've been one between Phillip and Harper, but Collins picked ISU. I was tempted to go with Tal Brody or even Jim Dawson for symmetry.

Skyy Clark has the best potential to among the best of the best. I don't know or care much about the details of his decommitment from UK. Apparently his recruiting coach left and he got a release. He picked us over Louisville among others.

He looks fine in those Monteverde videos and has progressed a lot since then.

« Last Edit: June 17, 2022, 10:35:00 PM by illiniray »
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illiniray

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Re: Next Years Roster Thoughts
« Reply #334 on: June 17, 2022, 10:08:52 PM »
Quote from: Lkdog on June 17, 2022, 09:43:29 PM

You left out Hill, Richardson, Paul, Rice, Nunn.

I would never have even considered Trent Meachum, Curbello, or Chet Frazier.

I added Paul on the good line. I do not consider Malcolm Hill, DJ Richardson,  Ray Rice, or Kendrick Nunn to be lead guards. Nunn may be now.
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Custard

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Re: Next Years Roster Thoughts
« Reply #335 on: June 17, 2022, 10:28:02 PM »
I’m a little leery of the hype around Clark given the injury. He didn’t play much last year. His tape doesn’t really excite me. My expectations are tempered for him, especially early in the season. Brad says he’s almost 100%, but it’s going to take him a while to shake the rust off and play without thinking about the knee. Hope I’m wrong.

Epps, on the other hand, is a flat out gamer that has excelled in many different environments against high level competition. I think his ranking gets dinged a bit for being shorter than 6’3” and a thoroughly below the rim player. He’s crafty, smart, very skilled, and has all the attributes that translate very well to the college game.

I don’t expect much from Harris right away but think he’ll be a really solid 4 year player.

Was really hoping we were going to add a veteran ball handler to the mix but it appears that’s not the case. Staff appears to be content with the pieces they’ve assembled but any kind of injury/illness could really make us thin there. Really need another backup big.
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illiniray

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Re: Next Years Roster Thoughts
« Reply #336 on: June 17, 2022, 11:50:42 PM »
Harris might have the poorest ball handling and passing skills of the 6 new guys, and that is not really a nock on Harris either.
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Dominic

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Re: Next Years Roster Thoughts
« Reply #337 on: June 18, 2022, 03:33:25 AM »
Quote from: illiniray on June 17, 2022, 09:57:27 PM


Skyy Clark has the best potential to among the best of the best. I don't know or care much about the details of his decommitment from UK. Apparently his recruiting coach left and he got a release. He picked us over Louisville among others.


The same Louisville that had a coaching change in March. Louisville has no track record at all under Kenny Payne who just was hired. 

And if you are a great player, Calipari will even let you come to UK just to suit up and never play, and still go to the draft like Shaedon Sharpe and Enes Kanter.  Leaving UK is an absolute red flag at least as far as expectations go
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illiniray

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Re: Next Years Roster Thoughts
« Reply #338 on: June 18, 2022, 02:35:45 PM »
Quote from: Dominic on June 18, 2022, 03:33:25 AM
.  Leaving UK is an absolute red flag at least as far as expectations go

I would think you would have to attend UK to leave UK. He did not transfer. He decommited after an assistant coaching coaching overhaul. Clark’s lead recruiter, Joel Justus, left for Arizona State after the 2020-21 season.

Nolan Hickman backed out of a commitment to UK and asked for a release last year. DJ Jeffries decommited in 2018. Were those red flags?

UK picked up Adou Thiero this spring. You think he is a better prospect than Clark? You might.You think Slim Jake is better than Mayer. I think UK wanted to keep Clark.

btw, Kenny Payne has no track record?

2004–2009
Oregon (assistant)
2010–2014
Kentucky (assistant)
2014–2020
Kentucky (associate HC)
2020–2022
New York Knicks (assistant)
2022–present
Louisville

That compares favorably with Juwan Howard and Mike Woodson.

Effing autocorrect tries to rewrite stuff.
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illiniray

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Re: Next Years Roster Thoughts
« Reply #339 on: June 18, 2022, 02:41:29 PM »
Predicting that Epps might be an all time great lead guard on par with Ayo, Dee, Frank, Kiwane Harris, Bruce Douglas, and Tal Brody does seem like a knock.
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Dominic

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Re: Next Years Roster Thoughts
« Reply #340 on: June 18, 2022, 04:06:16 PM »
Quote from: illiniray on June 17, 2022, 04:38:46 PM
Make this a new effing thread if you want. Be interesting to see how Skyy Clark and Jayden Epps stack up against the top Illinois lead guards of the past.

Elite: Andy Phillip, Derek Harper, Deron Williams

Great: Talk Brody, Bruce Douglas, Kiwane Harris, Frank Williams, Dee Brown, Ayo Dosunmu

Very Good: Manny Jackson, Jim Dawson, Tony Wysinger,  Steve Bardo, Demitri McCamey, Trent Frazier,  Andre Curbelo*

Good:  Bill Small, Jodie Harrison, Jeff Dawson, Steve Lanter, Larry Smith, Rennie Clemons, Trent Meacham, Chester Frazier, edit Brandon Paul, Andres Feliz

Who'd I forget?

Skyy Clark can be elite, Epps great.

On what planet is Andre Curbelo better than Brandon Paul?

How could you argue Trent Frazier is even better?

Even putting Paul in the same group as Meacham, Frazier, and Feliz is an insult to Brandon Paul.

Luther Head played in the NBA. He’s as much of “lead guard” as Andre Feliz.  You forget him?  You could argue Tracy Abrams was a lot better than Chester Frazier and Feliz too Frazier was a bad bad offensive player.

I dont think you understand what you are looking at. Just running your mouth in the off-season like everyone does trying to hype up a team that is going to suck
« Last Edit: June 18, 2022, 04:09:31 PM by Dominic »
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illiniray

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Re: Next Years Roster Thoughts
« Reply #341 on: June 18, 2022, 04:36:42 PM »
Quote from: Dominic on June 18, 2022, 04:06:16 PM
On what planet is Andre Curbelo better than Brandon Paul?

How could you argue Trent Frazier is even better?

Even putting Paul in the same group as Meacham, Frazier, and Feliz is an insult to Brandon Paul.

Luther Head played in the NBA. He’s as much of “lead guard” as Andre Feliz.  You forget him?  You could argue Tracy Abrams was a lot better than Chester Frazier and Feliz too Frazier was a bad bad offensive player.

I dont think you understand what you are looking at. Just running your mouth in the off-season like everyone does trying to hype up a team that is going to suck

You don't know what you are looking at. I used 5 categories. Elite, Great, Very Good, and Good. Players in each category are obviously listed in historical order. Not in how good they are.

All of this was was based on memory.

I almost had Brody on the elite line and Jim Dawson on the great line. Still undecided. Also maybe Jodie Harrison should be very good?

Waffled on including Jerry Colangelo on the good line.

I waffled on including Head, Paul, Abrams, Nunn, as lead guards.

 I have Head as a wing guard, same position as Gill. I am still undecided on Abrams. He kind of suckef. Maybe Paul should be listed as a wing guard.? He was out of position at the 1. Was Nunn ever a lead guard here?

debated with myself on including Curbelo. He was B1G 6th man of the year, deserves credit.

Maybe include Abrams on the good line, and remove Paul. Neither one wás really point / lead guards.

I actually saw most of them play except for a couple.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2022, 05:22:37 PM by illiniray »
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ILLove1997

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Re: Next Years Roster Thoughts
« Reply #342 on: June 18, 2022, 05:05:35 PM »
Quote from: Lkdog on June 17, 2022, 09:43:29 PM

You left out Hill, Richardson, Paul, Rice, Nunn.

I would never have even considered Trent Meachum, Curbello, or Chet Frazier.

yeah seriously what are those 3 doing on that list hahaha
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illiniray

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Re: Next Years Roster Thoughts
« Reply #343 on: June 18, 2022, 05:11:13 PM »
Quote from: ILLove1997 on June 18, 2022, 05:05:35 PM
yeah seriously what are those 3 doing on that list hahaha

 DJ Richardson was a good player for us, but he  could not dribble the ball unguarded past half court. He played strictly off the ball.

Hill and Rice were wings. Paul only played point because Abrams was so bad. Nunn was pretty good for that other team

Meacham, not Meachum, could actually play the 1 position. Averaged 10 ppg his last 2 seasons. Shot over 40% from 3.

Curbelo, with one l, was the B1G 6th man of the year before the injury. We were thinking he would turn pro early.

Chester became a good offensive player and was very good on defense. 3 x All B1G defense. That one team was actually pretty good before he broke his hand. Other than that ...
« Last Edit: June 19, 2022, 12:12:37 AM by illiniray »
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Dominic

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Re: Next Years Roster Thoughts
« Reply #344 on: June 19, 2022, 05:34:24 AM »
Quote from: illiniray on June 18, 2022, 05:11:13 PM


Chester became a good offensive player

When? His senior year?  He averaged 5.7 points a game that year.  Wow what a stud 5 points a game.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/chester-frazier-1.html


Rayvonte Rice and Brandon Paul both were ball dominate lead guards way moreso than a guy like Trent Meacham.

A “lead guard” is a guard that can create for himself or others off the dribble.  Paul, Rice, Nunn were all way way way better than Curbelo/Meacham/Chester Frazier, and Feliz. 

Curbelo was one of the worst guards in the Big 10 last year.  No outside shot, tons of turnovers.

Meacham was a role player.  Spot up shooter. Certainly not a guard to take guys off the dribble.

Chester Frazier was a good defensive player but on offense it was 4 on 5.

Feliz another marginal role player









« Last Edit: June 19, 2022, 05:46:19 AM by Dominic »
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