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We played better this season without Ayo.

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Judge Judy

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Re: We played better this season without Ayo.
« Reply #45 on: March 23, 2021, 02:09:30 PM »
I’ve mostly bit my tongue on criticizing Ayo because of his key role in resurrecting this program. But MD is right, and I’ll even go a step further by saying scheming to accommodate his ball dominance stunted the growth of the team as a whole.

I’ll agree with this, but we really needed him and he did a helluva lot for this program. So like you said, I’ll bite my tongue.
Because FOX News told me so…

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Jrock74

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Re: We played better this season without Ayo.
« Reply #46 on: March 23, 2021, 02:39:26 PM »
The goodle false dichotomy. Loyola is either a horrible team and it was really bad loss; or they are awesome and we never stood a chance. How about they are top 10 team according the leading formulas? Better than MSU. It was a disappointing loss, but not Austin Peay territory.     

In no way has there ever been a more embarrassing loss than the one to Loyola.   Illinois has now cemented itself into NCAA history as the top 13% of most overrated #1 seeds of all time.  The icing on the cake is that Illinois also became the 1st ever #1 seed to trail an entire 2nd round game start to finish and by double digits at that. So looks like we may get to hang another fucking banner after all.

It's easy to make Loyola look so damn good when you had players that could not have gave two fucks about a game being played on Saturday.  Illinois pulled this stupid shit all year against inferior competition.  Loyola only won because they actually gave a shit and played so accordingly.  Illinois decided to go full blown cavalier for the 1st 10 minutes of the game because in their minds we were already in the sweet 16.  We were not even trying, playing defense on our heels, jogging back down court on defense, and throwing unforced passes straight out of bounds laughing it up while we fell behind 19-9.

The only two players that seemed to give a flying fuck was Miller and Belo. They were the only two guys I saw getting on the floor and getting after it.  No else brought any fire what so ever. Just blows my mind how one game we got 3 different guys diving for loose balls every other play while the next game we're too busy patting ourselves on our backs.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2021, 02:40:58 PM by Jrock74 »

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Lkdog

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Re: We played better this season without Ayo.
« Reply #47 on: March 23, 2021, 03:08:47 PM »
This was a game we shouldn’t have lost, but we did, because we got out-coached and out-worked.

The notion that we were better without Ayo is ridiculous. But I think we were better without Ayo and Curbelo on the floor at the same time. Curbelo can’t play off the ball, which meant Ayo had to play off the ball, which isn’t his ideal role. And when Ayo had the ball, Curbelo is useless because he can’t spot up and shoot. I understand wanting to get two of your better creators out there at the same time, but it just didn’t work.

This is interesting and probably valid take. I think you recall the tension when Ayo showed up when Coach Hulka told Trent to stop shooting so much and that Ayo was Da Man.
A lot of discussion on here that they couldn't play well together as they both needed the ball in their hands to score.

AYo had too weak of handle to be a lead guard and to get others involved - and also score himself though. Had his moments, but we were spotty.

Second half of last year, Trent (and Feliz) did qausi PG duties, deferred fully to Ayo as primary scorer, and Ayo played OFF the ball more and he improved his production and efficiency a lot. We started looking pretty good.
We did clear out for him at end of games and do the 1/4 flat thing. He made some plays for sure, but he really wasn't one to create his own shot.
Really nobody on the team had true break down penetrating ability including Ayo as he had limited left hand.
Feliz could get inside and get his own out of pure street instincts at times.

Fast forward to this year and we did have a true PG in Andres now. Crazy little fuck but he knew how to play the position.

But it was kind of the Ayo NBA roadshow the first half of the year.
We were erratic, TO prone all year (including Ayo), and they all played defense sporadically.
AYo had some big games and he shot 15-17 times a game. Tried to do too much at times and still had limited left hand.
A lot of TOs,but a lot of production. We lived with it.


In second half of year he was even more of a do it all lead scoring guard. His assists went up as we did better in transition, and Kofi improved finishing and they got a pretty good PnR thing going at times.
Ayo's passing also improved to give him credit. He developed a crossover out of the blue in January after MD or somebody totally shut him down by forcing him left.
We played better team D which let to more transitions and his assists went up.

But he is not a true PG and has a lot of work to do that at next level. I don't think he has the instincts.

He did not handle the Loyola ball screen defense at all. Fell apart really.
He is not a PG, but he had the ball in his hands all the time anyway. Loyola knew this.


Curbelo knew how to manage the ballhandler ICE thing better, but we did not make the adjustments by the screener, and others to make themselves available quicker to make the defense pay.

Ayo was an extraordinary college player and in the conversation as an all time Illinois great.
He did not quite make the top tier list IMO. His BB IQ and defense was actually not that great.
And he was kind of hard to integrate with others in some ways.
His position in pros is wing off the ball- not a combo.



« Last Edit: March 23, 2021, 03:37:33 PM by Lkdog »

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Reacher

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Re: We played better this season without Ayo.
« Reply #48 on: March 23, 2021, 04:26:45 PM »
Where does the Coach Hulka nickname come from?
"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.

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Lkdog

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Re: We played better this season without Ayo.
« Reply #49 on: March 23, 2021, 04:48:15 PM »
Where does the Coach Hulka nickname come from?

It's my nickname for him. His biggest coaching asset is being the Big Toe.
Feel free to use it if you wish.

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Reacher

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Re: We played better this season without Ayo.
« Reply #50 on: March 23, 2021, 04:52:18 PM »
It's my nickname for him. His biggest coaching asset is being the Big Toe.
Feel free to use it if you wish.

Hadn’t seen Stripes since I was a teenager. After Googling it, I get it now. I like it.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2021, 11:17:26 PM by Tempo34 »
"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.

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Lkdog

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Re: We played better this season without Ayo.
« Reply #51 on: March 23, 2021, 05:41:40 PM »
Probably one of top 5 all time comedy movies.

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Custard

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Re: We played better this season without Ayo.
« Reply #52 on: March 23, 2021, 07:19:19 PM »
This is interesting and probably valid take. I think you recall the tension when Ayo showed up when Coach Hulka told Trent to stop shooting so much and that Ayo was Da Man.
A lot of discussion on here that they couldn't play well together as they both needed the ball in their hands to score.

AYo had too weak of handle to be a lead guard and to get others involved - and also score himself though. Had his moments, but we were spotty.

Second half of last year, Trent (and Feliz) did qausi PG duties, deferred fully to Ayo as primary scorer, and Ayo played OFF the ball more and he improved his production and efficiency a lot. We started looking pretty good.
We did clear out for him at end of games and do the 1/4 flat thing. He made some plays for sure, but he really wasn't one to create his own shot.
Really nobody on the team had true break down penetrating ability including Ayo as he had limited left hand.
Feliz could get inside and get his own out of pure street instincts at times.

Fast forward to this year and we did have a true PG in Andres now. Crazy little fuck but he knew how to play the position.

But it was kind of the Ayo NBA roadshow the first half of the year.
We were erratic, TO prone all year (including Ayo), and they all played defense sporadically.
AYo had some big games and he shot 15-17 times a game. Tried to do too much at times and still had limited left hand.
A lot of TOs,but a lot of production. We lived with it.


In second half of year he was even more of a do it all lead scoring guard. His assists went up as we did better in transition, and Kofi improved finishing and they got a pretty good PnR thing going at times.
Ayo's passing also improved to give him credit. He developed a crossover out of the blue in January after MD or somebody totally shut him down by forcing him left.
We played better team D which let to more transitions and his assists went up.

But he is not a true PG and has a lot of work to do that at next level. I don't think he has the instincts.

He did not handle the Loyola ball screen defense at all. Fell apart really.
He is not a PG, but he had the ball in his hands all the time anyway. Loyola knew this.


Curbelo knew how to manage the ballhandler ICE thing better, but we did not make the adjustments by the screener, and others to make themselves available quicker to make the defense pay.

Ayo was an extraordinary college player and in the conversation as an all time Illinois great.
He did not quite make the top tier list IMO. His BB IQ and defense was actually not that great.
And he was kind of hard to integrate with others in some ways.
His position in pros is wing off the ball- not a combo.

I was in the middle of writing something very similar to the overall theme of your post from my phone when it started ringing. I took the call and when I came back my browser window had closed and I lost it all. Didn’t feel like writing it again so I just posted the little thing I said earlier. So it made me happy to see you make this post because I think it needed to be said.
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fucking

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Re: We played better this season without Ayo.
« Reply #53 on: March 23, 2021, 08:22:11 PM »
my browser window had closed and I lost it all.

Which browser?

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Custard

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Re: We played better this season without Ayo.
« Reply #54 on: March 23, 2021, 08:38:43 PM »
My previous post was just a brief overview. I answered the phone and being in a noisy environment, put it to my ear rather than on speaker.

Somehow in this process I unknowingly switched back to the browser app. Kept hearing a little clicking noise and pulled the phone away from my ear to see what was happening. What had happened was that I typed a whole shitload of Ps with my face. Needing to pay attention to the call, I closed the app out rather than going back to the phone app.

After the call ended I reopened the browser and of course the post was gone because this shitty forum doesn’t cache posts as they’re being written.
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Miniditka

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Re: We played better this season without Ayo.
« Reply #55 on: March 23, 2021, 08:42:42 PM »
Probably one of top 5 all time comedy movies.
I used to think so, but I haven’t seen it in probably 15 years, so I don’t know if I’d still like it as much.

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Tempotime

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Re: We played better this season without Ayo.
« Reply #56 on: March 23, 2021, 08:45:45 PM »
They’re still sticking up for him.

I’m still waiting for a legit counter for how we beat #2 on the road by 23 without him.

Other than the...”Well, the team had to step up, and,uh, blah blah blah”...

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Tempotime

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Re: We played better this season without Ayo.
« Reply #57 on: March 23, 2021, 08:51:25 PM »
I’ll tell ya what happened after Ayo came back from injury...

Frazier went down the toilet.

Kofi still got his.

Miller and Curbelo shot less even though more efficient than Ayo, but took a backseat to him.

Don’t want to hear how Kofi clogged the lane for the batmobile. Kofi could’ve had 50 against Loyola if they passed him the ball.

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Somewhere in Mn

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Re: We played better this season without Ayo.
« Reply #58 on: March 23, 2021, 09:43:29 PM »
We didn't feel like playing defense, so we had to run a half court offense. We've had the problem on and off all year, but not for 40 minutes like the Loyola game is my take.
Good posts by JRock and LK.