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2004 Wake Forest

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Custard

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2004 Wake Forest
« on: March 07, 2021, 11:44:16 PM »
After this epic week of Illini hoops I decided to do a rewatch of the YouTube condensed version of that game just to kind of get a comparison fresh in mind.

Doesn’t seem that long ago and seems like a lifetime ago all at the same time. The super baggy shorts and floppy T Shirts under the jerseys just cracks me up.

What really stood out to me (other than the great ball movement) was how many threes were being shot. They played pretty basketball. As I think about the evolvement of the NBA game the past 15 years, that team was dominant at a time when murdering big teams from deep was still a bit of a novelty. Ironically, they were doomed by a team that had an enormous big man that we didn’t have an answer for in the manner in which the game was officiated.

With newer rules the way defense is played has a changed a lot. In the 05 game everyone is hunched over and has their arms/hands in front of their bodies and they have less lower body movement. In today’s game, players keep their arms and hands parallel to their core, are more on their toes (except Giorgi) and pressure the ball a lot more.

While the NBA has gone positionless and values 3 pointers and layups, in some ways college still has a lot of hulking behemoths that can flat ass dominate the paint with traditional post moves. In direct contrast to the NBA, moving the three point line back for amateur level players and teams putting an defensive emphasis on running teams off the three point line has created more room for the traditional big man and the mid range jumper. Things that are now a thing of the past in the NBA.

Compared to the January 2021 Illini team, the 2005 team just had way more playmakers. Multiple future pros on that team and it showed. Compared to early March 2021 Illini...well today’s game just has more iso so it’s hard to compare apples to apples. The 2005 Illini beat you as a team. Guys getting open guys open looks. The 2021 Illini can beat you as a team in almost the same way (think DWM’s open threes Saturday) but they can also bring out a cold blooded assassin in Ayo to do a lot of iso shit late in the game.

Ayo reminds me so much of Evan Turner late in his career at Ohio State. They not only share similar stats but their MO being a point forward that you hand the ball to in late game situations and more times than not they make some magic happen. Neither one with elite athleticism but lengthy crafty guys that can use their size to attack the basket and put all the pressure on the defend without fouling.

05 had Deron, a future NBA all star, and Luther, a guy who played in the NBA long enough to be a veteran. Dee and James and Roger got cups of coffee in the NBA. But when it came to crunch time they ran plays to get an open set shot. This team plays to get to the rim in those situations.

This team doesn’t have the sheer NBA caliber talent 05 did, they don’t have the same uncanny ball movement and spacing, but they have a certain grittiness to their games that I hope shows up well in tourney play. They also have an elite true big man. We have known all along the 4 spot was a weakness on this team. We don’t have a Roger Powell but Jacob Grandison is evolving into some kind of amalgam of The Rev and Jack Ingram (minus the Bible verses on the shoes and the whole ginger thing) He can set screens, defend the 4, rebound, hit the three, make hustle plays and unexpected putback dunks, knock down a pick and pop and finish at the rim.

Now here we are in 2021 and the NBA is full of positionless guys who can shoot while the B1G has some of the best true big men in college basketball. I think it would be poetic justice to have a championship game against a team like Gonzaga (a similarly constructed team to 05 Illini) but this time we have the monster inside for which they have no answers.

—When they shook hands afterward and did the interviews I thought for a second WHY ARENT THEY WEARING MASKS

—That team was blue collar af. They just took care of business. They had a little flash but this years team is a lot more emotionally demonstrative.

—Bruce does an interview with Bilas and Bruce comes across as such a fucking dork. He did a wonderful job with that team, but man oh man was he in over his head in every other aspect of program management. I bet even Gunther was thinking “All right this guy is killing it with Bill’s guys, but we are sooo fucked. But after this run I won’t be able to fire him for at least 3-4 years”
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murphstahoe

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Re: 2004 Wake Forest
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2021, 01:38:35 AM »

Now here we are in 2021 and the NBA is full of positionless guys who can shoot while the B1G has some of the best true big men in college basketball. I think it would be poetic justice to have a championship game against a team like Gonzaga (a similarly constructed team to 05 Illini) but this time we have the monster inside for which they have no answers.

Guess that depends on if we get the 3 or the 4 overall seed.

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Custard

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Re: 2004 Wake Forest
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2021, 08:43:27 AM »
I think it’s the 3 at the moment dependent perhaps on what happens in BTT
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Miniditka

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Re: 2004 Wake Forest
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2021, 09:54:21 AM »
I was thinking about this same thing a couple of days ago. My conclusion was that one of the few similarities between this team and the ‘05 team is that both teams (outside of Kofi) are really good passing teams. Both teams are/were pretty exceptional in that regard.

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Somewhere in Mn

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Re: 2004 Wake Forest
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2021, 12:12:04 PM »
We have 350 turnovers. Opponents have 307.
We're 13th in conference, ahead of Nebraska, and 189th nationally.
Imo, too many of those turnovers are bad passes, or lazy passes.

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illiniray

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Re: 2004 Wake Forest
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2021, 12:43:44 PM »
From what I have seen; some of belo's tos are due to forcing things in transition or entry passes into the post. That might be acceptable to some extent if you consider points in transition and points in the paint.
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Custard

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Re: 2004 Wake Forest
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2021, 01:32:21 PM »
Agree TOs are a problem and I’d like to do a deep dive sometime on them and see just how much they impact the game. As mentioned before it *feels* like most of them happen on post entry passes or the dribble drive and therefore don’t result in a run out for the other team like you see with careless turnovers in transition or passing around the arc. OTOH when we force turnovers, they often seem to result in run outs.

I imagine it’s a difficult job for Underwood to know how to manage Curbelo. Some of the great plays Belo makes simply can’t be made without a high level of confidence and fearlessness. You don’t want to put a damper on that but you can’t have him out there spinning around like the Tasmanian devil throwing the ball into the stands or to the other team 6 times a night either. I think he has shown he can be trusted as he’s grown and learned.

Saw some sloppy ones from Trent and Ayo I would really like to see cleaned up...those guys should know better. We also gotta clean up that lob play off the PNR to Kofi. It was working great earlier but everyone (except Minny and scUM) has figured out how to defend that well and it often ends up being a TO. Wonder if there is some wrinkle they could work into that play to regain its effectiveness.

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Miniditka

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Re: 2004 Wake Forest
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2021, 01:51:51 PM »
We have 350 turnovers. Opponents have 307.
We're 13th in conference, ahead of Nebraska, and 189th nationally.
Imo, too many of those turnovers are bad passes, or lazy passes.
We do make a lot of bad or lazy passes. Our guys are also very good about finding open men and getting easy buckets. We get more easy buckets than any Illini team in my memory, probably even more than the 2005 team.

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OskeeWowWoe

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Re: 2004 Wake Forest
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2021, 01:59:10 PM »
We do make a lot of bad or lazy passes. Our guys are also very good about finding open men and getting easy buckets. We get more easy buckets than any Illini team in my memory, probably even more than the 2005 team.

Ayo and 'belo both attack the rim almost at will.  A very valuable talent.

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Custard

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Re: 2004 Wake Forest
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2021, 09:27:04 PM »
I had some bracket stuff playing in the background on YouTube including the Ayo interview on the Goodman/Hummel podcast while cleaning up the kitchen. It got over and auto played the 2005 game @Purdue. I completely forgot Mean Gene gave us everything we wanted and more for most of that game.
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Custard

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Re: 2004 Wake Forest
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2021, 10:15:16 PM »
Watching the Zona game now. One thing that stands out is how many cross court and skip passes teams used to make. Those are almost impossible now with the length, athleticism and close out speed in today’s game
Poster Boy for White Male Indifference

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