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WTF is wrong with Joe Biden today?

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ThePAMan

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Re: WTF is wrong with Joe Biden today?
« Reply #750 on: August 25, 2022, 10:26:12 AM »
Your kids went to the military and were paid enough to not have debt for a four year degree?

Why are we paying that much to kids who are just going to leave the military after we train them?

Probably due to the GI Bill and similar state programs.
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murphstahoe

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Re: WTF is wrong with Joe Biden today?
« Reply #751 on: August 25, 2022, 11:54:38 AM »
Probably due to the GI Bill and similar state programs.

Irony is not your strong suit

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ThePAMan

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Re: WTF is wrong with Joe Biden today?
« Reply #752 on: August 25, 2022, 12:14:32 PM »
Irony is not your strong suit

It was not ironic.
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alum74

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Re: WTF is wrong with Joe Biden today?
« Reply #753 on: August 25, 2022, 01:57:57 PM »
One thing that people have a hard time understanding is cause and effect.  State governments used to subsidize higher education because an educated populous is a good thing.  That stopped happening to a large degree in the 1980s (privatizing a public good was a popular notion at the time, and still is) and the tuition rates soared.

The money to pay for running universities and colleges (yeah, I agree it could be done more efficiently) has to come from somewhere, so now students are burdened with debt to pay for it.  The way I look at it, Biden's plan is just a return to government playing a bigger role in subsidizing higher education again.

Is Biden’s approach good?.  I’d give him an incomplete (I) grade, but it will have to do until we have a broader policy discussion about the purpose of higher education, as well as the role that the states and federal government should play in supporting it.       

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ThePAMan

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Re: WTF is wrong with Joe Biden today?
« Reply #754 on: August 25, 2022, 02:14:13 PM »
One thing that people have a hard time understanding is cause and effect.  State governments used to subsidize higher education because an educated populous is a good thing.  That stopped happening to a large degree in the 1980s (privatizing a public good was a popular notion at the time, and still is) and the tuition rates soared.

The money to pay for running universities and colleges (yeah, I agree it could be done more efficiently) has to come from somewhere, so now students are burdened with debt to pay for it.  The way I look at it, Biden's plan is just a return to government playing a bigger role in subsidizing higher education again.

Is Biden’s approach good?.  I’d give him an incomplete (I) grade, but it will have to do until we have a broader policy discussion about the purpose of higher education, as well as the role that the states and federal government should play in supporting it.     

I only recently began thinking about this the other day, but he should have added a volunteering aspect to this. If you want the reduction, then you need to do some work for some non-profit. Yeah. I know  documentation and  fraud issues abound, but why not have people do something other than "apply"?
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illiniray

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Re: WTF is wrong with Joe Biden today?
« Reply #755 on: August 25, 2022, 02:17:30 PM »
Maybe after school choice gets going, we could get a parent loan program started for primary and secondary education. Offer to pay for high school if the children agree to serve in the military upon graduation.
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alum74

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Re: WTF is wrong with Joe Biden today?
« Reply #756 on: August 25, 2022, 02:59:49 PM »
I only recently began thinking about this the other day, but he should have added a volunteering aspect to this. If you want the reduction, then you need to do some work for some non-profit. Yeah. I know  documentation and  fraud issues abound, but why not have people do something other than "apply"?

That’s an interesting idea.  I could see debt relief applicants volunteering in areas like tutoring, public health or the environment, or national defense and security via military, police, or civil institutions.  You could tie the level of relief to the number of months of service provided, up to a certain threshold.  Many organizations and institutions have internship and volunteering opportunities, so I don't think you'd have to start from scratch to cobble a service program together.  Could look to other countries that have voluntary national service programs in place. 

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Chickengeorge

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Re: WTF is wrong with Joe Biden today?
« Reply #757 on: August 25, 2022, 03:34:09 PM »
From Mike Rowe:

I work hard on this page, (not as hard as I could, perhaps, but pretty hard), to avoid the politics of the moment, and comment only on topics that impact the foundation I’m proud to run – a foundation that awards work-ethic scholarships to individuals who choose to forego an expensive, four-year education in favor of a skilled trade. When I do weigh in, I try to acknowledge both sides of the argument, and make my points with as much respect as I can muster. Today, however, I can see only one side. Today, I can find nothing to respect in the President’s decision to transfer billions of dollars in outstanding student loans onto the backs of those people my foundation tries to assist - the same people I’ve spent the last twenty years profiling on Dirty Jobs.
With that in mind, I’m not going to write the piece I just sat down to write. Instead, I’m going to share the attached article from Charlie Cooke, who writes better than I do, and shares my disdain for what just happened. If you share our disdain, then please, share this post as well. This decision is without question, the biggest pre-Labor Day slap in the face to working people I've ever seen.
----
BIDEN'S STUDENT-DEBT BONFIRE IS A CLASSIST MESSAGE TO THE UNCREDENTIALED: SCREW 'EM
By Charlie Cooke

A few moments before I sat down to write this piece, I opened the door to six guys in blue shirts who had come to my house to replace our air-conditioning units. The Florida weather being what it is, I’ve seen some of these guys work on our air conditioners before, and they’re as skilled and knowledgeable and conscientious and hard-working as you might expect. The company they work for, which is local to North Florida, was started by a guy who chose to forgo college in favor of taking out a small-business loan to strike out on his own. Most of the technicians who work for him didn’t go to college, either. They took a different path. And, well . . . what absolute chumps the president has just made of them for that!

Squirm if you like, but that’s the truth of the matter: As of today, the six air-conditioning technicians in my house are on the hook for college loans that were signed for, spent, and enjoyed by other people. Confirming the measure today, President Biden announced that any American who has both college debt they vowed to repay and an individual yearly income under $125,000 (or a family yearly income under $250,000) will be given up to $20,000 by the Treasury — which means by you, and by me, and by everyone else who pays taxes in America.

Why? Well, that’s the question.

The answer can’t be, “because that’s what the relevant law anticipates or requires.” As of yet, Congress has provided no authorization for the executive branch to arbitrarily write off some of the money that borrowers owe to taxpayers. As of yet, Congress has passed no rules that allow down-on-their-luck presidents to throw money at people for political gain. As of yet, Congress has given no instruction that if the president’s friends might like a little more cash, he can raid the Treasury to give it to them. Certainly, Congress has set up a loan program. But the deal there is rather simple, all told: First you borrow, and then you pay back what you borrowed. There is no mention of “forgiveness” days or of “help” or of rolling Chekhovian jubilees, and by pretending otherwise, President Biden is making a mockery of his oath to uphold the Constitution.

Another answer that won’t fly is, “To lower the cost of education.” As President Biden made clear today, this is a one-time deal, a lottery, a lightning strike. People who paid off their loans last week aren’t covered. People who will take out new loans after the policy has run its course aren’t covered. The problems in the system aren’t addressed. The colleges, and their endowments, are left unmolested. American culture’s increasingly credentialist presumptions aren’t altered. Within four years, overall debt will return to its present level. With the stroke of a pen, the already-fake deficit savings within the Inflation Reduction Act will be wiped out. This isn’t a reform. It’s not even pretending to be reform. It’s a contemptuous, abusive, unbelievably expensive shot in the dark — the net effect of which will be that fewer people correctly calibrate whether college is worth it, fewer colleges change their offerings to meet market demand, and, because this sort of executive giveaway will now loom large as a possibility, fewer people feel the need to save for college.

It seems so arbitrary. Why does Biden not want to do the same thing for loans on trucks owned by plumbers? Why not for mortgages — which, given how heavily it subsidizes them, the federal government clearly thinks are worthwhile? Why not for credit cards or auto payments or mom-and-pop credit lines? The answer, I’m afraid to say, is disgustingly classist: Because Joe Biden and his party believe that college students are better than everyone else. Because Joe Biden and his party believe that college students are of a finer cut. Because Joe Biden and his party prefer college students to you, and they think that those students ought to be rewarded for that by being handed enormous gobs of your money.

Electricians, store managers, deli workers, landscapers, waitresses, mechanics, entrepreneurs? Screw ’em. Sure, college graduates make more money than non-graduates, and their unemployment rate is lower, too. But non-graduates don’t have access to the president, so they don’t matter. They’re tradesmen, the riff-raff, the great unwashed. They’re background noise, dirty-handed types, second-classers. They don’t deserve $10,000 in debt reduction. What would they even do with it? Go hunting? Give it to their church? Their role is to subsidize the superior people, and the superior people go to college.

Why did Joe Biden do all this? That’s why. Why was this what Joe Biden chose to break his oath to achieve? That’s why. When it came down to it, good ol’ Scranton Joe sent cash from the sort of people he cynically pretends to care about to the sort of people he actually cares about: the privileged, accredited, self-dealing clerisy that his ever-dwindling political party now calls its base.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2022, 04:03:11 PM by Chickengeorge »

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Jobu

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Re: WTF is wrong with Joe Biden today?
« Reply #758 on: August 25, 2022, 03:35:10 PM »
I don't know.  I can kinda see both sides here.  When I went to school at U of I, I took out loans, and they were low interest, easily managed, and easy to pay back.  Of course, the tuition was much lower back then, so that also contributed to it being more manageable.  Basically, it was another bill that I had for a while that I paid on until it was gone.

It sounds like now, some of these loans, coupled with the massive increase in tuition, are pretty damn predatory.  The kind where you pay on it, and somehow, all of your payments are going to interest, and not principal, and it's never getting paid down.  Ya know, kinda like loan sharking.

I also recall in my day a cap on interest rates.  Apparently that was shitcanned, so of course the crooks will do whatever they can to make the most money and satisfy their shareholders in the process.

I get that they took out loans, and when you do that, you should pay it back.  And I paid mine back with little difficulty.  But it sounds like now, it's a real bitch. 

When you put this next to governments bailing out banks, and all of the other bullshit they pull with tax breaks for billionaires, this really doesn't move the needle with me.  If someone is making less that 125k, throw them 10k to help out with loans that they are genuinely trying to get out from under.  Fine.  Our government spends so much on bullshit, why is this pissing off so many? I don't get it.
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Somewhere in Mn

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Re: WTF is wrong with Joe Biden today?
« Reply #759 on: August 25, 2022, 04:12:33 PM »
The mid-terms.

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ThePAMan

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Re: WTF is wrong with Joe Biden today?
« Reply #760 on: August 25, 2022, 04:16:15 PM »
Jobu, you raise good points.

Not that it makes this situation any more palatable, but has this Cooke guy been bitching about tax breaks for the wealthy and carried interest deductions for hedge fund managers?
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Chickengeorge

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Re: WTF is wrong with Joe Biden today?
« Reply #761 on: August 25, 2022, 06:52:15 PM »

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alum74

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Re: WTF is wrong with Joe Biden today?
« Reply #762 on: August 25, 2022, 07:31:48 PM »
The mid-terms.

Of course, he wanted to do this before the midterms.  But it shouldn’t come as a surprise.  Biden’s delivered on a campaign promise.  Much like Trump did when he campaigned for the expansion of the barrier along the US-Mexico border.  Trump initiated the project via an executive order he signed several months before the 2018 midterms.  Smart political move for both Trump and Biden.   

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alum74

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Re: WTF is wrong with Joe Biden today?
« Reply #763 on: August 25, 2022, 07:35:05 PM »
From Mike Rowe:

I work hard on this page, (not as hard as I could, perhaps, but pretty hard), to avoid the politics of the moment, and comment only on topics that impact the foundation I’m proud to run – a foundation that awards work-ethic scholarships to individuals who choose to forego an expensive, four-year education in favor of a skilled trade. When I do weigh in, I try to acknowledge both sides of the argument, and make my points with as much respect as I can muster. Today, however, I can see only one side. Today, I can find nothing to respect in the President’s decision to transfer billions of dollars in outstanding student loans onto the backs of those people my foundation tries to assist - the same people I’ve spent the last twenty years profiling on Dirty Jobs.
With that in mind, I’m not going to write the piece I just sat down to write. Instead, I’m going to share the attached article from Charlie Cooke, who writes better than I do, and shares my disdain for what just happened. If you share our disdain, then please, share this post as well. This decision is without question, the biggest pre-Labor Day slap in the face to working people I've ever seen.
----
BIDEN'S STUDENT-DEBT BONFIRE IS A CLASSIST MESSAGE TO THE UNCREDENTIALED: SCREW 'EM
By Charlie Cooke

A few moments before I sat down to write this piece, I opened the door to six guys in blue shirts who had come to my house to replace our air-conditioning units. The Florida weather being what it is, I’ve seen some of these guys work on our air conditioners before, and they’re as skilled and knowledgeable and conscientious and hard-working as you might expect. The company they work for, which is local to North Florida, was started by a guy who chose to forgo college in favor of taking out a small-business loan to strike out on his own. Most of the technicians who work for him didn’t go to college, either. They took a different path. And, well . . . what absolute chumps the president has just made of them for that!

Squirm if you like, but that’s the truth of the matter: As of today, the six air-conditioning technicians in my house are on the hook for college loans that were signed for, spent, and enjoyed by other people. Confirming the measure today, President Biden announced that any American who has both college debt they vowed to repay and an individual yearly income under $125,000 (or a family yearly income under $250,000) will be given up to $20,000 by the Treasury — which means by you, and by me, and by everyone else who pays taxes in America.

Why? Well, that’s the question.

The answer can’t be, “because that’s what the relevant law anticipates or requires.” As of yet, Congress has provided no authorization for the executive branch to arbitrarily write off some of the money that borrowers owe to taxpayers. As of yet, Congress has passed no rules that allow down-on-their-luck presidents to throw money at people for political gain. As of yet, Congress has given no instruction that if the president’s friends might like a little more cash, he can raid the Treasury to give it to them. Certainly, Congress has set up a loan program. But the deal there is rather simple, all told: First you borrow, and then you pay back what you borrowed. There is no mention of “forgiveness” days or of “help” or of rolling Chekhovian jubilees, and by pretending otherwise, President Biden is making a mockery of his oath to uphold the Constitution.

Another answer that won’t fly is, “To lower the cost of education.” As President Biden made clear today, this is a one-time deal, a lottery, a lightning strike. People who paid off their loans last week aren’t covered. People who will take out new loans after the policy has run its course aren’t covered. The problems in the system aren’t addressed. The colleges, and their endowments, are left unmolested. American culture’s increasingly credentialist presumptions aren’t altered. Within four years, overall debt will return to its present level. With the stroke of a pen, the already-fake deficit savings within the Inflation Reduction Act will be wiped out. This isn’t a reform. It’s not even pretending to be reform. It’s a contemptuous, abusive, unbelievably expensive shot in the dark — the net effect of which will be that fewer people correctly calibrate whether college is worth it, fewer colleges change their offerings to meet market demand, and, because this sort of executive giveaway will now loom large as a possibility, fewer people feel the need to save for college.

It seems so arbitrary. Why does Biden not want to do the same thing for loans on trucks owned by plumbers? Why not for mortgages — which, given how heavily it subsidizes them, the federal government clearly thinks are worthwhile? Why not for credit cards or auto payments or mom-and-pop credit lines? The answer, I’m afraid to say, is disgustingly classist: Because Joe Biden and his party believe that college students are better than everyone else. Because Joe Biden and his party believe that college students are of a finer cut. Because Joe Biden and his party prefer college students to you, and they think that those students ought to be rewarded for that by being handed enormous gobs of your money.

Electricians, store managers, deli workers, landscapers, waitresses, mechanics, entrepreneurs? Screw ’em. Sure, college graduates make more money than non-graduates, and their unemployment rate is lower, too. But non-graduates don’t have access to the president, so they don’t matter. They’re tradesmen, the riff-raff, the great unwashed. They’re background noise, dirty-handed types, second-classers. They don’t deserve $10,000 in debt reduction. What would they even do with it? Go hunting? Give it to their church? Their role is to subsidize the superior people, and the superior people go to college.

Why did Joe Biden do all this? That’s why. Why was this what Joe Biden chose to break his oath to achieve? That’s why. When it came down to it, good ol’ Scranton Joe sent cash from the sort of people he cynically pretends to care about to the sort of people he actually cares about: the privileged, accredited, self-dealing clerisy that his ever-dwindling political party now calls its base.

Is it Festivus already?

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Somewhere in Mn

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Re: WTF is wrong with Joe Biden today?
« Reply #764 on: August 25, 2022, 07:48:44 PM »
Of course, he wanted to do this before the midterms.  But it shouldn’t come as a surprise.  Biden’s delivered on a campaign promise.  Much like Trump did when he campaigned for the expansion of the barrier along the US-Mexico border.  Trump initiated the project via an executive order he signed several months before the 2018 midterms.  Smart political move for both Trump and Biden.   
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