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The most important election of our lives

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illiniray

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Re: The most important election of our lives
« Reply #630 on: January 02, 2025, 04:02:22 PM »
I guess I should use the /s.

AFAIK there is pretty much no such thing as libel or slander in political speech. Trump has said there should be, and has talked about changing the law. Hence the irony. We have been over this multiple times.

« Last Edit: January 02, 2025, 04:07:52 PM by illiniray »
“Taking a trip? Where to?”  -“Wherever I end up, I guess. -“Man, I wish I was you." -Well, hang in there.”

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illiniray

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Re: The most important election of our lives
« Reply #631 on: January 02, 2025, 04:05:49 PM »
massive fake documents generated under the guise of authenticity and dropped right before an election

Huh?

You mean like this:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-comey-letter-probably-cost-clinton-the-election/
“Taking a trip? Where to?”  -“Wherever I end up, I guess. -“Man, I wish I was you." -Well, hang in there.”

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illiniray

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Re: The most important election of our lives
« Reply #632 on: January 02, 2025, 04:14:34 PM »
“We are going to take a strong look at our country’s libel laws, so that when somebody says something that is false and defamatory about someone, that person will have meaningful recourse in our courts ... Our current libel laws are a sham and a disgrace and do not represent American values or American fairness.” -- DJT

It's just fine for Trump to tell lies about his political opponents.

He should sue the Trump campaign for libel. The Tampon Tim ads were knowingly false and malicious. They also lied about his national guard record.


One of the challenges of free speech is there is a right to lie; limited by defamation (libel and slander).

...

Political speech seems to be  pretty much an anything goes full contact blood sport.

Quote from: illiniray
link=topic=94.msg130113#msg130113 date=1723743826

Should deliberately spreading political disinformation be protected free speech?

In the United States it almost always is.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2025, 04:49:03 PM by illiniray »
“Taking a trip? Where to?”  -“Wherever I end up, I guess. -“Man, I wish I was you." -Well, hang in there.”

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No one in Mn

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Re: The most important election of our lives
« Reply #633 on: January 02, 2025, 05:52:28 PM »
Again, we know the Arkansas Project / Massive Right Wing Conspiracy / multifaceted smear campaign to get Bill and Hillary was real and wildly successful. Some of the principals involved have bragged and laughed about it. One has "moved on" to the other side. Some of the same people were behind the birther crap and the grass roots Tea Party take over of the Republican Party culminating in Trump. They continued to go after SoS and Presidential candidate HRC.

Craig Livingstone and Billy Dale are largely forgotten. The trail of bodies is a faint memory. Still, to this day I know people who think the Clinton Foundation sold Pay to Play access, Hillary gave our Uranium to Russia, and she stored top secret files on a server in her bathroom..

The Clinton Campaign apparently hired Perkins-Coie, a prestigious law firm for a variety of services, including to do opposition research on Trump?  A lawyer or lawyers for Perkins,- Coie hired Fusion GPS.  "an opposition research and strategic intelligence firm based in Washington, D.C." -- Wikipedia

Fusion GPS previously investigated Trump for the Washington Free Beacon, a far right publication.

Fusion GPS retained Orbis Business Intelligence, a British private intelligence firm founded by former British intelligence agent Christopher Steele.

Then there is Igor Danchenko, a Russian analyst who was apparently a primary source for something called the Steele Dossier.

Opposition research, like a non-disclosure agreement,  is not illegal. I don't see a plan to  frame Trump, just the usual efforts to dig up dirt.

As far as I know, political smear campaigns, even lying about opponents, is legal. It's called free speech. Slander and libel apparently don't apply in political campaigns. 
 
A lawyer for Perkins-Coie tipped off the FBI about the possible Alfa Bank connection. The FBI investigated, found nothing.

Is there some weird connection to George Papadopoulos in these covert layers?
A Republican was running against Trump in the primary. A Republican contacted, as you say, a far right publication, to do the opposition research that you refer to as an investigation. The Republican primary challenger no longer needed the services of Fusion GPS when his campaign ended.
Someone contracting with Fusion GPS for Trump opposition before the Clinton campaign involvement is irrelevant.

Regarding that "something called the Steele dossier" it gave the opportunity to surveil a presidential candidate campaign and his presidency. The FBI also wasn't truthful to the FISA Court about Carter Page's status as a source, and that allowed the spying on the campaign.

And "there is Igor Danchenko, a Russian analyst" who may very well be an analyst but he's also not a US citizen. He's a Russian citizen.
I suppose that someone could say the Clinton campaign paid a Russian to dig up dirt and use bar talk from a bar outside the U.S. that proved to be false to effect a Presidential election. I suppose some could also say the Clinton campaign paid for Russian disinformation.
Still hiding behind innuendo and practicing the art of ommision.

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illiniray

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Re: The most important election of our lives
« Reply #634 on: January 02, 2025, 06:28:13 PM »
"While the dossier played a central and essential role in the seeking of FISA warrants on Carter Page, it did not play any role in the January 6, 2017, intelligence community assessment of the Russian actions in the 2016 election, and it was not the trigger for the opening of the Russia investigation into whether the Trump campaign was coordinating with the Russian government's interference in the 2016 presidential election. The dossier is a factor in several conspiracy theories promoted by Trump and his supporters."-- Wikipedia
“Taking a trip? Where to?”  -“Wherever I end up, I guess. -“Man, I wish I was you." -Well, hang in there.”

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illiniray

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Re: The most important election of our lives
« Reply #635 on: January 02, 2025, 06:35:08 PM »
"Igor Yurievich Danchenko (born May 5, 1978) is a Russian citizen and U.S. resident currently residing in Virginia who works as a Eurasia political risk, defense and economics analyst. Together with Clifford Gaddy he analyzed Vladimir Putin's 1996 university dissertation and presented examples of plagiarism. In July 2020, Danchenko was revealed to have worked for Christopher Steele's Orbis Business Intelligence as a source for the Steele dossier. In November 2021, he was indicted on charges of lying to the FBI about the identities of his sources but "not about the information [in the dossier] itself".  He was acquitted of all charges in October 2022."


"During his trial, two FBI officials revealed that Danchenko was "an uncommonly valuable" confidential human source for several years whose role went far beyond the Steele dossier:

Helson testified that Danchenko's reports as a confidential informant were used by the FBI in 25 investigations and 40 intelligence reports during a nearly four-year period from March 2017 to October 2020.... Danchenko, the FBI agent said, was considered 'a model' informant and 'reshaped the way the U.S. even perceives threats.' Helson said that none of his previous informants had ever had as many sub-sources as Danchenko and that others at the FBI have continued to ask in recent months for Danchenko's assistance amid Russia's invasion of Ukraine."

From Wikipedia
« Last Edit: January 02, 2025, 06:39:47 PM by illiniray »
“Taking a trip? Where to?”  -“Wherever I end up, I guess. -“Man, I wish I was you." -Well, hang in there.”

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illiniray

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Re: The most important election of our lives
« Reply #636 on: January 02, 2025, 07:40:44 PM »
A Republican was running against Trump in the primary. A Republican contacted, as you say, a far right publication, to do the opposition research that you refer to as an investigation. The Republican primary challenger no longer needed the services of Fusion GPS when his campaign ended.
Someone contracting with Fusion GPS for Trump opposition before the Clinton campaign involvement is irrelevant.

It is relevant because you seemed to be saying Fusion GPS was part of a multi layered plot to frame Trump and conceal Hillary Clinton's involvement. It was Fusion GPS that hired Steele's company.

« Last Edit: January 02, 2025, 07:44:57 PM by illiniray »
“Taking a trip? Where to?”  -“Wherever I end up, I guess. -“Man, I wish I was you." -Well, hang in there.”

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Re: The most important election of our lives
« Reply #637 on: January 03, 2025, 07:52:53 AM »
It is relevant because you seemed to be saying Fusion GPS was part of a multi layered plot to frame Trump and conceal Hillary Clinton's involvement. It was Fusion GPS that hired Steele's company.


The Clinton campaign had lawyers. Plenty of them and the campaign was not going to simply go out and hire Danchenko, a Russian citizen.
Perkins Coie was the first step in maintaining the veneer of attorney-client privilege. After that it was outsourcing everything internationally.

The Republican primary challenger didn't use a Russian citizen to gather their 'opposition research.'
Fusion GPS is a DC based opposition research company. Anyone, including Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, Marxists and morons are able to contract out with them.

What happened before the Clinton campaign involvement is irrelevant.
Still hiding behind innuendo and practicing the art of ommision.

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No one in Mn

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Re: The most important election of our lives
« Reply #638 on: January 03, 2025, 08:03:52 AM »
"Igor Yurievich Danchenko (born May 5, 1978) is a Russian citizen and U.S. resident currently residing in Virginia who works as a Eurasia political risk, defense and economics analyst. Together with Clifford Gaddy he analyzed Vladimir Putin's 1996 university dissertation and presented examples of plagiarism. In July 2020, Danchenko was revealed to have worked for Christopher Steele's Orbis Business Intelligence as a source for the Steele dossier. In November 2021, he was indicted on charges of lying to the FBI about the identities of his sources but "not about the information [in the dossier] itself".  He was acquitted of all charges in October 2022."


"During his trial, two FBI officials revealed that Danchenko was "an uncommonly valuable" confidential human source for several years whose role went far beyond the Steele dossier:

Helson testified that Danchenko's reports as a confidential informant were used by the FBI in 25 investigations and 40 intelligence reports during a nearly four-year period from March 2017 to October 2020.... Danchenko, the FBI agent said, was considered 'a model' informant and 'reshaped the way the U.S. even perceives threats.' Helson said that none of his previous informants had ever had as many sub-sources as Danchenko and that others at the FBI have continued to ask in recent months for Danchenko's assistance amid Russia's invasion of Ukraine."

From Wikipedia
The FBI designated Danchenko as a confidential human source when they found out his story was full of shit. They knew it in Jan or early Feb 2017. Then they designated him a chs to keep the Russian citizen from being exposed to everybody.

"Uncommonly valuable". Lol
Translation: 'the Clinton campaign and the FBI couldn't have done it without him'.
Give him a medal. Hang a banner.
Still hiding behind innuendo and practicing the art of ommision.

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illiniray

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Re: The most important election of our lives
« Reply #639 on: January 03, 2025, 11:28:09 AM »
The FBI designated Danchenko as a confidential human source when they found out his story was full of shit. They knew it in Jan or early Feb 2017. Then they designated him a chs to keep the Russian citizen from being exposed to everybody.

"Uncommonly valuable". Lol
Translation: 'the Clinton campaign and the FBI couldn't have done it without him'.
Give him a medal. Hang a banner.

 !!!!!!

Danchenko was a United States resident and senior analyst for the Brookings Institute. He helped expose Trump's buddy Putin as a plagiarist.

Durham tried to nail Danchenko for lying about his sources -- not the content -- for his contribution to the Steele Dossier -- the jury didn't buy it.

Sussmann was acquitted too. Durham did get some low level lawyer for a moot alteration of an email.

Quote
Durham's investigation was predicated on false claims by President Trump and his allies beginning in 2017 that the Russia investigation, code-named Crossfire Hurricane, was motivated by a conspiracy by U.S. intelligence or law enforcement agencies. The investigation had found many questionable links between Trump associates and Russian officials and spies and led to the Mueller investigation. The president said the probe was part of a deep state plot and a "hoax" or "witch hunt" that was initiated by his political enemies.

...

The New York Times reported that concerns were raised that their efforts were a politicization of the Justice Department to pursue political enemies of the president.

...

After three-and-a-half-years, Durham indicted three men. One was an FBI lawyer who pleaded guilty to altering an email that was included in a June 2017 application for a surveillance warrant on a former Trump campaign aide; he was sentenced to probation. The other two men were tried and acquitted. In both trials, Durham alleged the defendants had deceived the FBI but did not allege the FBI acted improperly toward Trump.
-- Wikipedia


Stone, Manafort, Gates, Flynn, Cohen, Kilimnik,  van der Zwaan, Papadopoulos 
“Taking a trip? Where to?”  -“Wherever I end up, I guess. -“Man, I wish I was you." -Well, hang in there.”

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Re: The most important election of our lives
« Reply #640 on: January 03, 2025, 01:29:36 PM »
!!!!!!

Danchenko was a United States resident and senior analyst for the Brookings Institute. He helped expose Trump's buddy Putin as a plagiarist.

Durham tried to nail Danchenko for lying about his sources -- not the content -- for his contribution to the Steele Dossier -- the jury didn't buy it.

Sussmann was acquitted too. Durham did get some low level lawyer for a moot alteration of an email.
 -- Wikipedia


Stone, Manafort, Gates, Flynn, Cohen, Kilimnik,  van der Zwaan, Papadopoulos 
Danchenko was, and is, a Russian citizen. He came up with fabrications regarding the Trump campaign that allowed for spying on a Presidential candidate and a sitting President.

How does DC vote in elections ?
« Last Edit: January 03, 2025, 01:34:06 PM by No one in Mn »
Still hiding behind innuendo and practicing the art of ommision.

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illiniray

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Re: The most important election of our lives
« Reply #641 on: January 03, 2025, 01:55:14 PM »
Danchenko was, and is, a Russian citizen. He came up with fabrications regarding the Trump campaign that allowed for spying on a Presidential candidate and a sitting President.

How does DC vote in elections ?

Xenophobic much?

who cares if Danchenko was a Russian Citizen? He was a legal resident of the United States.

He contributed to the Steele Dossier; which was never anything but raw, unsubstantiated allegations. I don't know that fabrications is the correct word. More like rumors, gossip, and exaggerations with underlying elements of fact.

If it was used improperly; which is debatable; that is not on him.
“Taking a trip? Where to?”  -“Wherever I end up, I guess. -“Man, I wish I was you." -Well, hang in there.”

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illiniray

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“Taking a trip? Where to?”  -“Wherever I end up, I guess. -“Man, I wish I was you." -Well, hang in there.”

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Re: The most important election of our lives
« Reply #643 on: January 03, 2025, 02:15:01 PM »
who cares if Danchenko was a Russian Citizen? He was a legal resident of the United States.

He contributed to the Steele Dossier; which was never anything but raw, unsubstantiated allegations. I don't know that fabrications is the correct word. More like rumors, gossip, and exaggerations with underlying elements of fact.

If it was used improperly; which is debatable; that is not on him.
If anyone in the Trump campaign was in the same room with a Russian citizen, it was "evidence" of collusion.
The Clinton campaign works with a Russian citizen to effect a Presidential election and it can be considered a good and honest endeavor. And in the process, some of the payments are referred to as "legal fees" involving an opposition research firm.
Have I got it about right ?

If the dossier was used improperly, would that have anything to do with an FBI that was aware of the shortcomings of the dossier in Jan or early Feb 2017 ?
Still hiding behind innuendo and practicing the art of ommision.

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No one in Mn

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Re: The most important election of our lives
« Reply #644 on: January 03, 2025, 02:31:37 PM »
I know others disagree, but this is persuasive:

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/fbi-wouldve-been-derelict-not-use-steele-dossier-carter-page-fisa-warrant
Again, and again, and again and again.
Clinesmith lied to the FISA court and you come up with an article co-written by someone who, imo, should never be taken seriously that includes "Under FISA, “verification” simply requires both the FBI and lawyers in the Department of Justice to verify that the facts as set forth in the affidavit are supported by evidence obtained as part of the investigation."
This alone, dismisses the entire article.
Still hiding behind innuendo and practicing the art of ommision.