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Poll

Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?

No
5 (35.7%)
Yes
9 (64.3%)

Total Members Voted: 14

Voting closed: January 26, 2024, 10:59:11 AM

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Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?

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spark mandrill

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #150 on: May 17, 2024, 12:36:45 PM »
Quote from: Judge Judy on May 17, 2024, 12:29:38 PM
She’s calling him a rapist! He’s been called all kinds of names, etc… and she doesn’t even know if it’s him! Yes, I’d say that’s a problem!

She has never said she doesn’t know if it’s him.  You’re just really, really, really bad at understanding what you read.

If she was a victim of sexual assault (which still is not a given by any means!) you obviously owe her an apology for all the awful stuff you said about her.  You called her a slut and said she should be put in jail.  I know you won’t apologize - when you look awful you lash out and attack me instead of reflecting on how your own behavior resulted in you looking like a moron and an awful person - but you should.

It’s just not that hard or that much to ask not to jump to conclusions, not to pretend you know shit you have no way of knowing, not to attack people personally that you know nothing whatsoever about.  At least, it’s not that hard for intelligent, decent people.
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ThePAMan

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #151 on: May 17, 2024, 12:43:21 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on May 17, 2024, 12:26:33 PM
Yes, I think the athletic department - not a judge - should be able to choose who represents their program.  That was literally never even remotely controversial, not even a little, until it affected our best basketball player.  If a guy on our team is arrested for murder I think the AD should be able to suspend him from the team.


As we’ve seen here, the people who have consistently insisted they know the truth despite objectively having no way to know are the ones who are going to (and already do) look terrible.

Theres not really a way the people who have been saying “we don’t have nearly enough information to know, the evidence is totally opaque to us, don’t rush to judgment because of the basketball team he plays for, don’t attack the accuser who you know nothing about” are going to come out of this looking bad.

A judge merely applied the law. Blame the US Constitution, your legislators, and the AD Department (for failing to follow its own rules) for him playing.
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spark mandrill

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #152 on: May 17, 2024, 12:47:59 PM »
The law didn’t change though.

What changed is that this judge interpreted it in a way that means a college athletic department cannot suspend a kid anymore.  Which is obviously an extremely different scenario than literally every other instance of a college athlete being arrested in history.  Every one of them has been suspended on arrest, and not one single time has anyone thought that’s unfair or unreasonable or a violation of his rights, not once - until it was OUR best player.

One year ago lots of Illini fans were angry that Alabama didn’t suspend a player who wasn’t even arrested or charged with anything.  We mocked Iowa for years over the Pierre Pierce thing, but now you’re telling me we should’ve been angry about the violation of his rights.

It’s pretty ugly stuff IMO, but doesn’t matter what I think about it.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2024, 01:04:41 PM by spark mandrill »
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Judge Judy

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #153 on: May 17, 2024, 01:06:50 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on May 17, 2024, 12:26:33 PM
Yes, I think the athletic department - not a judge - should be able to choose who represents their program.  That was literally never even remotely controversial, not even a little, until it affected our best basketball player.  If a guy on our team is arrested for murder I think the AD should be able to suspend him from the team.


As we’ve seen here, the people who have consistently insisted they know the truth despite objectively having no way to know are the ones who are going to (and already do) look terrible.

Theres not really a way the people who have been saying “we don’t have nearly enough information to know, the evidence is totally opaque to us, don’t rush to judgment because of the basketball team he plays for, don’t attack the accuser who you know nothing about” are going to come out of this looking bad.

You’re making a lot of assumptions here, BUT only YOU can! Amirite?!
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Judge Judy

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #154 on: May 17, 2024, 01:07:46 PM »
Quote from: ThePAMan on May 17, 2024, 12:43:21 PM
A judge merely applied the law. Blame the US Constitution, your legislators, and the AD Department (for failing to follow its own rules) for him playing.

Bingo.
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spark mandrill

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #155 on: May 17, 2024, 01:09:06 PM »
Quote from: Judge Judy on May 17, 2024, 01:06:50 PM
You’re making a lot of assumptions here, BUT only YOU can! Amirite?!

Which assumptions did I make?



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spark mandrill

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #156 on: May 17, 2024, 01:10:29 PM »
Prediction: the “assumptions” Judy is about to accuse me of making are things I never came close to saying or implying.  Something like “you’re assuming he did it” or “you’re assuming she was assaulted”
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illiniray

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #157 on: May 17, 2024, 01:30:25 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on May 17, 2024, 12:36:45 PM
She has never said she doesn’t know if it’s him.  You’re just really, really, really bad at understanding what you read.

5. M.N. testified that she was assaulted from behind as she stared straight ahead. She testified that the hand she believed touched her came from the man standing to her left. She testified as to her belief that the man next to her was Mr. Shannon.
6. DNA analysis conducted by the State and reviewed by a defense expert does not reveal evidence that Mr. Shannon ever had physical contact with M.N., though male DNA is present in some samples taken from her person.
7. M.N. decided that the man standing next to her was Terrence Shannon because she went home that evening and searched the internet for photos of athletes from the University of Kansas and University of Illinois and found that Mr. Shannon’s roster photo looked like a man she saw in the bar and who she believed—though she did not see--was attached to the hand that touched her.
8. Other than M.N.’s statement that she believed Mr. Shannon was the person who touched her, there is no evidence supporting this contention. 

source: TERRENCE SHANNON’S MOTION TO COMPEL DISCOVERY
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ThePAMan

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #158 on: May 17, 2024, 01:31:58 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on May 17, 2024, 12:47:59 PM
The law didn’t change though.

What changed is that this judge interpreted it in a way that means a college athletic department cannot suspend a kid anymore.  Which is obviously an extremely different scenario than literally every other instance of a college athlete being arrested in history.  Every one of them has been suspended on arrest, and not one single time has anyone thought that’s unfair or unreasonable or a violation of his rights, not once - until it was OUR best player.

One year ago lots of Illini fans were angry that Alabama didn’t suspend a player who wasn’t even arrested or charged with anything.

It’s pretty ugly stuff IMO, but doesn’t matter what I think about it.
The kid in Alabama was not suspended because they claimed they did not have enough information to deem it suspension worthy. He was not even criminally charged.

Plus, this is what you got out of this? That is an extremely poor, I'll say it, lazy reading of the decision and the law.  The judge relied on a 7th Circuit case involving a guy out of Purdue who sued after he felt he got railroaded in the process. So it is not like suspensions have never been overturned before.

They had a policy. Due Process required them to follow it. They did not follow it. Blame your guy Guenther Jr. for fucking it up (which is understandable given the logistical issues here), not the judge.
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spark mandrill

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #159 on: May 17, 2024, 01:33:13 PM »
Quote from: illiniray on May 17, 2024, 01:30:25 PM
5. M.N. testified that she was assaulted from behind as she stared straight ahead. She testified that the hand she believed touched her came from the man standing to her left. She testified as to her belief that the man next to her was Mr. Shannon.
6. DNA analysis conducted by the State and reviewed by a defense expert does not reveal evidence that Mr. Shannon ever had physical contact with M.N., though male DNA is present in some samples taken from her person.
7. M.N. decided that the man standing next to her was Terrence Shannon because she went home that evening and searched the internet for photos of athletes from the University of Kansas and University of Illinois and found that Mr. Shannon’s roster photo looked like a man she saw in the bar and who she believed—though she did not see--was attached to the hand that touched her.
8. Other than M.N.’s statement that she believed Mr. Shannon was the person who touched her, there is no evidence supporting this contention. 

source: TERRENCE SHANNON’S MOTION TO COMPEL DISCOVERY

So she's never said she didn't know if it was him, even in his own lawyers' motion?

Obviously their job is to create doubt in a jury (and, in the case of this extremely public case, in the Illini fanbase).  There is no claim at least to this point from her that she doesn't know whether it was him.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2024, 01:47:28 PM by spark mandrill »
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ThePAMan

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #160 on: May 17, 2024, 01:35:47 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on May 17, 2024, 12:36:45 PM
You’re just really, really, really bad at understanding what you read.

Said without a hint of irony....you may want to re-read the judge's opinion. The law has not changed and schools can still suspend students (as long as they follow the processes and procedures they have put in place).
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spark mandrill

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #161 on: May 17, 2024, 01:38:18 PM »
Quote from: ThePAMan on May 17, 2024, 01:31:58 PM
The kid in Alabama was not suspended because they claimed they did not have enough information to deem it suspension worthy. He was not even criminally charged.

Plus, this is what you got out of this? That is an extremely poor, I'll say it, lazy reading of the decision and the law.  The judge relied on a 7th Circuit case involving a guy out of Purdue who sued after he felt he got railroaded in the process. So it is not like suspensions have never been overturned before.

They had a policy. Due Process required them to follow it. They did not follow it. Blame your guy Guenther Jr. for fucking it up (which is understandable given the logistical issues here), not the judge.

Yep.  And many Illini fans were angry about that, even though he wasn't charged with a crime.  They thought he should've been suspended, even without a criminal charge.

It was only when it was OUR best player that Illini fans became such staunch believers that suspending someone without a criminal conviction is such an egregious violation of his civil rights.

They found a way to 'suspend him' and save face, but still allow him to play so our basketball team didn't suffer.  You can thank Josh Whitman for figuring out a way for Shannon to not miss this season.  Let's not pretend that isn't what happened, you're not that dumb.

It required a strange reading of the law from a judge that pretty much every lawyer I know was kind of in awe of, citing Shannon's NBA draft prospects and his loss of income.  It doesn't matter that I think that's nuts, that's what the judge said and that's what needed to be abided by - but the idea that you cannot suspend a kid from an extracurricular activity before giving him some sham 'trial' in front of some University panel who has none of the evidence whatsoever to make a determination of his guilt, is a new one.  Certainly no Illini fans have applied that logic to any previous athlete who was charged with a crime to my knowledge.
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spark mandrill

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #162 on: May 17, 2024, 01:45:16 PM »
Quote from: ThePAMan on May 17, 2024, 01:35:47 PM
Said without a hint of irony....you may want to re-read the judge's opinion. The law has not changed and schools can still suspend students (as long as they follow the processes and procedures they have put in place).

Nope, they can't - not without a determination of guilt made by a Title IX panel (who out of absolute necessity has none of the evidence that'd be in front of a court).  A sham process with no hope of actually making a firm determination of guilt or innocence (the same thing the Shannon judge said about the OSCR, who later dropped the case because of course they have no evidence to determine his guilt or innocence before a court does).  It's against the rules now to suspend or remove a kid from a sports team during an investigation unless you can prove immediate risk in court.

https://twitter.com/pinepaula/status/1781286951653437654

You knew that though, well-informed as you are.
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ThePAMan

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #163 on: May 17, 2024, 01:50:12 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on May 17, 2024, 01:38:18 PM
Yep.  And many Illini fans were angry about that, even though he wasn't charged with a crime.  They thought he should've been suspended, even without a criminal charge.

It was only when it was OUR best player that Illini fans became such staunch believers that suspending someone without a criminal conviction is such an egregious violation of his civil rights.

They found a way to 'suspend him' and save face, but still allow him to play so our basketball team didn't suffer.  You can thank Josh Whitman for figuring out a way for Shannon to not miss this season.  Let's not pretend that isn't what happened, you're not that dumb.

It required a strange reading of the law from a judge that pretty much every lawyer I know was kind of in awe of, citing Shannon's NBA draft prospects and his loss of income.  It doesn't matter that I think that's nuts, that's what the judge said and that's what needed to be abided by - but the idea that you cannot suspend a kid from an extracurricular activity before giving him some sham 'trial' in front of some University panel who has none of the evidence whatsoever to make a determination of his guilt, is a new one.  Certainly no Illini fans have applied that logic to any previous athlete who was charged with a crime to my knowledge.

This is laughable. They had a fucking policy in place specifically when Title IX would not apply (which it did not here, as the University argued). They did not follow the policy, which the law requires. 

Now you are saying they did it on purpose? They knew Shannon would sue AND would win? (Despite what you argue is the novelty of basing part of the decision on the loss of draft position and NIL income.) GMAFB with this bullshit.
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ThePAMan

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #164 on: May 17, 2024, 01:58:52 PM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on May 17, 2024, 01:45:16 PM
Nope, they can't - not without a determination of guilt made by a Title IX panel (who out of absolute necessity has none of the evidence that'd be in front of a court).  A sham process with no hope of actually making a firm determination of guilt or innocence (the same thing the Shannon judge said about the OSCR, who later dropped the case because of course they have no evidence to determine his guilt or innocence before a court does).  It's against the rules now to suspend or remove a kid from a sports team during an investigation unless you can prove immediate risk in court.

https://twitter.com/pinepaula/status/1781286951653437654

You knew that though, well-informed as you are.

Tell me where the law has changed, Spark. It has not, in this instance. Illinois set up this process, they did not follow it. It is an administrative University proceeding; not a court proceeding. Title IX did not apply because this was an off-campus incident involving a non-student. How much Illinois incorporated Title IX processes in its policy was up to Illinois. I would think some of the same processes would apply for Due Process reasons. But, we did see people complain that Obama's changes to Title IX (which were revoked by Trump) allowed these proceedings to become "Star Chamber"-like.

There were extreme logistical issues here. She was not a student and she was out-of-state. Was she willing to cooperate with Illinois in its investigation? Was she even asked? 

You are just talking out of your ass at this point.

Read her opinion again. She walks through it all.
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