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Poll

Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?

No
5 (35.7%)
Yes
9 (64.3%)

Total Members Voted: 14

Voting closed: January 26, 2024, 10:59:11 AM

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Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?

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Somewhere in Mn

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2024, 08:25:34 AM »
No action until resolution, which would probably be March at the soonest, of an OSCR hearing would most likely not sit well.

The university took a position on the matter with the suspension, tho they handled it incorrectly.
I don't know what a satisfactory path for a non-campus and non-university situation would have been to minimize the backlash.
OSCR appears to be the path that should have been taken. I haven't read the judge's opinion but I've read that it includes expedited discovery, which should streamline the OSCR investigation.

Did TSJ's lawyers request that because they have been given very little evidence ?
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illiniray

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2024, 08:27:36 AM »
To review, the Judge ruled against Shannon on Count 1, Title 1. She ruled in his favor on COUNT VI
42 U.S.C. §1983

From Shannon's filing:

115. At all times relevant, Killeen, acted under color of state law, as President of the
University of Illinois system, has had oversight over the DIA including the Team and can direct his subordinates at the DIA.

116. Killeen, as President of Illinois, has deprived TJ of a constitutionally protected
property interest by suspending him from the Team, thereby depriving TJ of the right not to be suspended from the Team without good cause and due process, as required by Title IX, as set forth in the Scholarship Contract, and/or otherwise.

117. Killeen, as President of Illinois, also deprived TJ of a constitutionally protected
liberty interest to pursue a career of his choice without the stigma of the Suspension.

118. Killeen, as President of Illinois, also threatens to deprive TJ of a constitutionally
protected property interest by subjecting him to the
 deficient OSCR Action.

119. Killeen, as President Illinois, has violated TJ’s procedural due process rights, as alleged herein. TJ was suspended under the DIA Policy that has the least amount of safeguards for him, as outlined above. Further, despite Illinois’ promises to the contrary, the DIA Action does not heed the presumption of innocence or other basic due process rights. Additionally, the
OSCR Policy process that is being applied to TJ does not provide sufficient fairness or due process.

120. Money damages cannot fully and adequately compensate TJ for the reasons alleged above.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2024, 08:29:49 AM by illiniray »
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illiniray

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2024, 08:45:58 AM »
An OSCR sexual misconduct investigation takes approximately 40 business days? Would that have started after winter break?

Could an OSCR panel even make any sort of  finding of fact based on the evidence we have now?

Shannon's attorneys should have the DNA and any other physical evidence from the KS crime lab by January 31.

If there is nothing new, no DNA, new damning statements from witnesses, and no "me too's," it seems the preponderance of the evidence is in Shannon's favor.
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Somewhere in Mn

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2024, 09:23:27 AM »
Quote from: illiniray on January 22, 2024, 08:45:58 AM

Shannon's attorneys should have the DNA and any other physical evidence from the KS crime lab by January 31.

Is this from his attorneys, or an assumption that you are making ?
Does Ks have the DNA results ?
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Custard

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2024, 03:07:19 PM »
Quote from: ThePAMan on January 22, 2024, 07:44:46 AM
LOL. Love that you casually dismiss by omission that they are incompetent despite the evidence.

For a guy who is cynical and dismissive of politicians and those in postions of power of all stripes, maybe deservedly so, you sure drink the DIA kool-aid.

Yeah, Guenther Jr. was playing 4 D Chess here. Given the inherent  difficulties in investigating this particular case, the odds are he never would have been suspended at all if they had just followed the rules.

I literally said I agreed with Norlander when he said that what the university is doing could be insanely idiotic. Not sure what you want from me. I highly doubt any athletic department at any big time college was fully prepared for this kind of legal challenge given the newness of NIL.  You can bet they’re watching very closely.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2024, 03:09:31 PM by Custard »
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illiniray

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2024, 03:21:05 PM »
When the university weighed the effects of possible outcomes, they only considered the potential harm to the University if they played TJ and he was eventually convicted; versus if  they played him and he was exonerated.

They didn't really consider harm to TJ. To them, the loss of the privilege of playing a game was moot. They let him keep his scholarship. He could attend class. He could work out with trainers and so on. Plus,  sny harm in their eyes was due to his actions of getting himself  arrested for a felony sex crime.

That would have flown in the past, but not in the era of NIL and unlimited free  penalty transfers.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2024, 03:25:12 PM by illiniray »
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ThePAMan

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2024, 03:30:45 PM »
Quote from: Custard on January 22, 2024, 03:07:19 PM
I literally said I agreed with Norlander when he said that what the university is doing could be insanely idiotic. Not sure what you want from me. I highly doubt any athletic department at any big time college was fully prepared for this kind of legal challenge given the newness of NIL.  You can bet they’re watching very closely.

The NIL was an issue here, yes. But a. there are still rights independent of NIL (MSU swimmer case the judge cited) and b. you don't get to NIL if the DIA/university simply applied the OSCR policy in conjunction with the DIA "policy" as Gunther Jr. claimed in his presser.  Meaning, you don't get to "damages" until you determine there was a violation of policy/the law.

I call bullshit that other schools aren't prepared for shit like this. The focus is on the process. Everyone has the same damned processes in place because Title IX requires it for those cases. It is also some in-house counsel's job (not Guenther, Jr.'s) at UIUC to know about that Purdue case. It is a 7th Circuit case from 2019 that covers Illinois. Yet someone at UIUC signed off on the process actually employed here.

It is tough to lose these cases if you are the school. Hell, even a fake lawyer like me has been part of winning 3 or 4 plagiarism cases where the policy in place was not followed to a T, but the student still lost as the student was, at the end of the day, provided the details of the accusations and the ability to appear before a board to defend themselves regardless of any procedural missteps by the school.
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illiniray

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2024, 03:32:51 PM »
Quote from: Mn on January 22, 2024, 09:23:27 AM
Is this from his attorneys, or an assumption that you are making ?
Does Ks have the DNA results ?

His attorneys subpoenaed the KS crime lab for all tests etc. related to the case, iirc, early in January. They should have everything by the end of the month.

I dunno exactly what the DA has. I would guess she has all the reports by now.
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ThePAMan

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2024, 03:33:21 PM »
Quote from: illiniray on January 22, 2024, 03:21:05 PM
When the university weighed the effects of possible outcomes, they only considered the potential harm to the University if they played TJ and he was eventually convicted; versus if  they played him and he was exonerated.

They didn't really consider harm to TJ. To them, the loss of the privilege of playing a game was moot. They let him keep his scholarship. He could attend class. He could work out with trainers and so on. Plus,  sny harm in their eyes was due to his actions of getting himself  arrested for a felony sex crime.

That would have flown in the past, but not in the era of NIL and unlimited free  penalty transfers.

No, it would not have flown in the past. The ROTC kid in the Purdue case was not getting NIL money and there was no "investigation" etc. there either.

There is fucking lawyer in Las Vegas who makes his money taking these student cases. He probably loses a lot of them.
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Somewhere in Mn

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2024, 03:39:35 PM »
Quote from: illiniray on January 22, 2024, 03:32:51 PM
His attorneys subpoenaed the KS crime lab for all tests etc. related to the case, iirc, early in January. They should have everything by the end of the month.

I dunno exactly what the DA has. I would guess she has all the reports by now.
Got it. We'll see if that happens.
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illiniray

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #40 on: January 22, 2024, 03:39:47 PM »
The University of Illinois versus the University of Illinois. It's not a new story.

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illinicalvin

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2024, 03:40:52 PM »
Quote from: illiniray on January 21, 2024, 10:35:03 PM
He probably should have been released on his own recognizance. Would a white businessman been required to post bail or even arrested in the same circumstances?
Oh for fuck's sake yes.
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ThePAMan

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2024, 03:42:32 PM »
The NIL is new wrinkle when it comes to damages part of the analysis. The judge noted that in her opinion. But she also cited other pre-NIL cases where the student was deemed damaged because they were denied the right to participate in the sport they signed up to play.

The Hall case cited by the school didn't have to factor in NIL. Maybe that would have tipped that case towards the student, maybe not. As Calvin has noted though, the loss of cash as damages is generally insufficient for a TRO or preliminary injunction as you can be made "whole" by getting a money judgment against the university or whomever. The judge danced around that a little, but also focused on his draft status.
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illiniray

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2024, 03:46:09 PM »
Quote from: Mn on January 22, 2024, 03:39:35 PM
Got it. We'll see if that happens.
"On January 12, 2024, TSJ’s lawyers sent a subpoena to the Kansas Bureau of Investigation (KBI). The subpoena requests every swab, photograph, examination note, chain of custody note, all crime lab reports, and all DNA analysis performed (to name a few). From my review, TSJ’s lawyers are very strong with extensive trial experience. This subpoena is significantly detailed to secure the Laboratory Case File. It is due back within 14 days (depending when received, around Jan. 31, 2024) so nothing will happen until then. Be cautious about what you hear online, podcasts, on the streets, etc. Facts are important while opinions riddled with hearsay can become biased propaganda for both sides"
https://twitter.com/mitchgilfillan/status/1747653033213804592?t=pFRVP8b9GDAcH_DT6xhBtw&s=19
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illinicalvin

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Re: Should Terrence Shannon play while awaiting trial?
« Reply #44 on: January 22, 2024, 03:52:17 PM »
Quote from: ThePAMan on January 22, 2024, 03:30:45 PM
I call bullshit that other schools aren't prepared for shit like this. The focus is on the process. Everyone has the same damned processes in place because Title IX requires it for those cases. It is also some in-house counsel's job (not Guenther, Jr.'s) at UIUC to know about that Purdue case. It is a 7th Circuit case from 2019 that covers Illinois. Yet someone at UIUC signed off on the process actually employed here.
I doubt you can get hired at UI gen counsel without the education and admin law background to know this stuff like the back not your hand. Goes back to my observation that this isn't new because of the NIL. I think it's what happens when a kid hires lawyers to ramrod the school and his criminal defense attorney doesn't stop it. On that aspect of it, NIL would be new in that it's a source of litigation funding.
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