* *

User

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

June 12, 2026, 02:22:11 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Recent

Stats

Members
  • Total Members: 142
  • Latest: Hal9000
Stats
  • Total Posts: 180312
  • Total Topics: 1496
  • Online Today: 270
  • Online Ever: 4316
  • (October 16, 2025, 04:40:42 PM)
Users Online
Users: 0
Guests: 157
Total: 157

« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 138 139 [140] 141 142 ... 419   Go Down

THE JFC Thread!

  • 6279 Replies
  • 651638 Views

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

*

spark mandrill

  • *****
  • 4043
  • +312/-40
    • View Profile
Re: THE JFC Thread!
« Reply #2085 on: December 13, 2023, 08:49:12 AM »
Quote from: Can’t Miss Quarterback on December 13, 2023, 08:42:22 AM
One guy had better receivers. Sure. But both had plenty of offensive talent around them. And one guy played Clemson twice and Alabama once. One guy didn’t. Did Caleb ever play in a really important game?

Does the level of talent around them count in this comparison, or is it completely because of Fields OSU was in those games and because of Williams that USC isn’t?

Looks like the “biggest” games Williams has played were:

- the Alamo Bowl vs #15 Oregon at Oklahoma:
78% completion, 242 yards passing, 3 TD, 0 INT

- the Pac-12 title game against #12 Utah as a junior:
68.3% completion, 363 yards, 3 TD 1 INT

- the Cotton Bowl against #14 Tulane as a junior:
71.2% completion, 462 yards, 5 TD, 1 INT.

At the end of the day it’s a question mark like every NFL pick ever has been, no doubt about that - but I can’t really take anybody seriously who says both “I haven’t watched him” and also “he’s a smaller Justin Fields”.  He may not end up nearly as good as Fields, I can’t say for sure, but they’re not really similar players at all.  The ONLY reason that “evaluation” exists is because the Bears have the top pick.
Logged
*

spark mandrill

  • *****
  • 4043
  • +312/-40
    • View Profile
Re: THE JFC Thread!
« Reply #2086 on: December 13, 2023, 08:52:15 AM »
Quote from: Can’t Miss Quarterback on December 13, 2023, 08:43:10 AM
In a conference that’s historically synonymous with poor defense.

Would you have passed on Andrew Luck for that reason?  Or Herbert?

I think the defense argument cuts both ways to some degree, personally.  Yeah obviously there are some questionable defenses in the PAC.. including USC’s.  If he’d had Justin Fields’ defense he’d probably have played in a CFP, don’t you think?  With four top-20 WRs (along with two NFL tight ends and an NFL RB) and a good defense I think the “winning” stuff would probably look a lot different for Caleb Williams.

He fell apart at the end of the Utah conference title game with a CFP spot on the line (pulled within 3, then had a fumble and a pick). His defense also gave up 23 fourth quarter points, three straight touchdown drives with the game on the line.  If that happens to Justin Fields you argue that it isn’t his fault at all.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2023, 08:58:51 AM by spark mandrill »
Logged
*

Reacher

  • *****
  • 40166
  • +1078/-1067
  • You should see my passer rating
    • View Profile
Re: THE JFC Thread!
« Reply #2087 on: December 13, 2023, 09:00:41 AM »
Granted, every guy isn’t a 1st round draft choice; but he had an Arizona transfer who had 66 catches and 1100 yards with Arizona last year and made 1st team Pac whatever number they call it now as his 6th leading receiver this year. If Caleb gets to cite lack of weaponry in college, then Justin gets the same benefit of the doubt in the pros. I’d love to see Hill/Waddle Hill/Kelce Brown/Smith Chase/Higgins on the Bears.
Logged
"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.
*

Reacher

  • *****
  • 40166
  • +1078/-1067
  • You should see my passer rating
    • View Profile
Re: THE JFC Thread!
« Reply #2088 on: December 13, 2023, 09:02:19 AM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on December 13, 2023, 08:52:15 AM
Would you have passed on Andrew Luck for that reason?  Or Herbert?

I think the defense argument cuts both ways to some degree, personally.  Yeah obviously there are some questionable defenses in the PAC.. including USC’s.  If he’d had Justin Fields’ defense he’d probably have played in a CFP, don’t you think?  With four top-20 WRs (along with two NFL tight ends and an NFL RB) and a good defense I think the “winning” stuff would probably look a lot different for Caleb Williams.

He fell apart at the end of the Utah conference title game with a CFP spot on the line (pulled within 3, then had a fumble and a pick). His defense also gave up 23 fourth quarter points, three straight touchdown drives with the game on the line.  If that happens to Justin Fields you argue that it isn’t his fault at all.

Sounds similar to the Denver collapse that we only blame Justin for.
Logged
"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.
*

spark mandrill

  • *****
  • 4043
  • +312/-40
    • View Profile
Re: THE JFC Thread!
« Reply #2089 on: December 13, 2023, 09:08:41 AM »
Quote from: Can’t Miss Quarterback on December 13, 2023, 09:00:41 AM
Granted, every guy isn’t a 1st round draft choice; but he had an Arizona transfer who had 66 catches and 1100 yards with Arizona last year and made 1st team Pac whatever number they call it now as his 6th leading receiver this year. If Caleb gets to cite lack of weaponry in college, then Justin gets the same benefit of the doubt in the pros. I’d love to see Hill/Waddle Hill/Kelce Brown/Smith Chase/Higgins on the Bears.

But you try to have it the other way.

You literally have told me that it’s not fair to evaluate any game Justin Fields played in his first two years in the league because of the talent on his roster, but when I point out the talent discrepancy in college you handwave it like it doesn’t matter.

If Caleb Williams had been throwing this year to 4 top-20 picks at wideout and 2 tight ends also drafted into the NFL, do you think his passing numbers would’ve been more impressive? Do you think it’s possible they’d have won more games?  I think it’s at least moderately likely that if Williams had Fields’ college pass catchers, there would still be unanimity on him as one of the elite prospect of the last 20 years (I think there’s quite a lot of “credible” people who still think that now, in fact).

I don’t think Caleb has been totally bereft of pass catching talent at all but I do think Fields had maybe one of the more impressive collections of pass catching talent I remember in college.  The talent around him seems to matter to you for his production in the pros (ie when it confirms your preconception) but not in college (ie when it contradicts your preconception).
Logged
*

Reacher

  • *****
  • 40166
  • +1078/-1067
  • You should see my passer rating
    • View Profile
Re: THE JFC Thread!
« Reply #2090 on: December 13, 2023, 09:10:37 AM »
Lol we’re comparing USC’s COLLEGE TALENT (Jordan Addison College receiver of the year) to last years’ Bears roster. Lol really?
Logged
"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.
*

Reacher

  • *****
  • 40166
  • +1078/-1067
  • You should see my passer rating
    • View Profile
Re: THE JFC Thread!
« Reply #2091 on: December 13, 2023, 09:11:51 AM »
Did you just make the case USC is bereft of talent in the Pac whatever number they call it now conference?
Logged
"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.
*

Reacher

  • *****
  • 40166
  • +1078/-1067
  • You should see my passer rating
    • View Profile
Re: THE JFC Thread!
« Reply #2092 on: December 13, 2023, 09:12:39 AM »
I wish Justin had had the top receiver in the NFL last year…
Logged
"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.
*

Reacher

  • *****
  • 40166
  • +1078/-1067
  • You should see my passer rating
    • View Profile
Re: THE JFC Thread!
« Reply #2093 on: December 13, 2023, 09:13:34 AM »
C’mon Spark, comparing USC to last years’ Bears is beyond a bad comparison.
Logged
"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.
*

spark mandrill

  • *****
  • 4043
  • +312/-40
    • View Profile
Re: THE JFC Thread!
« Reply #2094 on: December 13, 2023, 09:13:50 AM »
Quote from: Can’t Miss Quarterback on December 13, 2023, 09:02:19 AM
Sounds similar to the Denver collapse that we only blame Justin for.

I have never “only blamed Justin for” that, ever.  That is made up.  “You’re extrapolating”.  I think the defense deserves a ton of blame for that meltdown.  I also think Fields deserves blame for the turnovers and his own fourth quarter issues.  Same with Caleb Williams - turning the ball over multiple times in the fourth quarter in a winnable game is a bad thing for your quarterback to do, even if your defense melts down too.  I’ve never heard you acknowledge even minimal blame for Fields regarding the loss to Denver.

Yes it sounds an awful lot like the Denver collapse - other than in the Denver situation you will accept 0 criticism of Fields’ play whatsoever and exclusively blame the defense’s meltdown, and in the Utah situation you’re using it as a mark against the quarterback.
Logged
*

Reacher

  • *****
  • 40166
  • +1078/-1067
  • You should see my passer rating
    • View Profile
Re: THE JFC Thread!
« Reply #2095 on: December 13, 2023, 09:14:25 AM »
I imagine I’ll be accused of taking what you just said out of context.
Logged
"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.
*

Reacher

  • *****
  • 40166
  • +1078/-1067
  • You should see my passer rating
    • View Profile
Re: THE JFC Thread!
« Reply #2096 on: December 13, 2023, 09:15:22 AM »
Quote from: spark mandrill on December 13, 2023, 09:13:50 AM
I have never “only blamed Justin for” that, ever.  That is made up.  “You’re extrapolating”.  I think the defense deserves a ton of blame for that meltdown.  I also think Fields deserves blame for the turnovers and his own fourth quarter issues.  Same with Caleb Williams - turning the ball over multiple times in the fourth quarter in a winnable game is a bad thing for your quarterback to do, even if your defense melts down too.  I’ve never heard you acknowledge even minimal blame for Fields regarding the loss to Denver.

Yes it sounds an awful lot like the Denver collapse - other than in the Denver situation you will accept 0 criticism of Fields’ play whatsoever and exclusively blame the defense’s meltdown, and in the Utah situation you’re using it as a mark against the quarterback.

I’m pretty sure you did. Because I was shocked your response was virtually identical to the PAMan. That’s when I realized you guys were sounding tremendously alike.
Logged
"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.
*

Reacher

  • *****
  • 40166
  • +1078/-1067
  • You should see my passer rating
    • View Profile
Re: THE JFC Thread!
« Reply #2097 on: December 13, 2023, 09:17:22 AM »
The fumble TD return was a killer. The defense could have also not folded like Superman on laundry day. That could’ve helped.
Logged
"He commented more than once that, 'You know, Hitler did some good things, too,'" Kelly recalled to The Times. Kelly said he would usually quash the conversation by saying "nothing (Hitler) did, you could argue, was good," but that Trump would occasionally bring up the topic again.
*

spark mandrill

  • *****
  • 4043
  • +312/-40
    • View Profile
Re: THE JFC Thread!
« Reply #2098 on: December 13, 2023, 09:18:59 AM »
Quote from: Can’t Miss Quarterback on December 13, 2023, 09:13:34 AM
C’mon Spark, comparing USC to last years’ Bears is beyond a bad comparison.

I’m trying to get you to stick to consistent logic.

Either the talent around a guy matters or it doesn’t.  It can’t matter when you want it to and be immaterial when it contradicts your preconception.  I’m okay with accepting either idea - that the talent around you is an excuse for not performing great or not winning enough, or that it isn’t an excuse for not performing great or not winning - but it’s silly to insist sometimes it matters and sometimes it doesn’t.

We don’t have any data on Caleb Williams in the NFL to compare to Fields obviously.  My guess is if the Bears pass on him he will get drafted to a team with mediocre or worse talent.  My other guess is that you will be here trying to dunk on him any time he has a bad game, and will never be like “well he gets three years before we can evaluate him because the talent around him is bad.”
Logged
*

spark mandrill

  • *****
  • 4043
  • +312/-40
    • View Profile
Re: THE JFC Thread!
« Reply #2099 on: December 13, 2023, 09:19:37 AM »
Quote from: Can’t Miss Quarterback on December 13, 2023, 09:17:22 AM
The fumble TD return was a killer. The defense could have also not folded like Superman on laundry day. That could’ve helped.

Same with USC/Utah, but you’re still here using “he never played in a really big game” as a knock against Caleb Williams personally.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 138 139 [140] 141 142 ... 419   Go Up
« previous next »